Submitted by NickySmithFromPGH t3_zz1zhm in pittsburgh
Since like 2019 (I’ve been hearing; maybe earlier) … the Clairton mill increased pollution emissions to the point where it’s often been tough to breathe in the Mon Valley. And the number of air quality alerts went up. They’ve been fined every year I believe … but they keep on emitting their pollution while just paying the fine. How can we make sure they actually stop their pollution
I left the ACHD recently. A big problem is the county does not pay well. The air quality department has some of the most qualified and educated people in the county but they aren’t getting any support from the county. They are understaffed and underpaid. A lot of people have left after the pandemic because we don’t have any hybrid options and other govt agencies do and pay better. US steel ties up a lot of the department in litigation and appeals. But the department is still very transparent. And as I said on the previous thread Allegheny County has stricter air quality regs than the rest of the state.
If you’re seriously interested start attending Air Quality Advisory Meetings which are public meetings. Actually go and look at proposed reg changes on the county website. Attend public hearings.
Nonsense. The violations are completely acknowledged and documented. The ACHD doesn't have to do any "work" except file a Clean Air Act lawsuit, and a criminal one as well. For hundreds of millions, as per other national cases. Not the small fines they go after which amount to a cheap license to pollute.
They don't do so at political direction. More pay is just rewarding them for not doing their job.
That’s literally not how it works. It is an administrative agency.
Please go read the ACHD rules and regulations. You are thinking of a citizens suit under the clean air act. Criminal fines can be filed but they are actually not as high. And again it doesn’t matter because US Steel appeals everything. They appeal new permits, their fines, regulation changes etc. Go look at the ACHD Dockets. Cases are years old. US steel has a lot of money to fight the appeals.
Out of curiosity, is there anything that can be done at the county level to increase the fines? We’ve seen fines against US Steel, but they’re generally in the tens of thousands, which is incredibly small for that size of a business. Can the county increase the size of fine (e.g., through ahem changes in the county government)?
It takes regulation changes. But also some of the fines that you see aren’t for the major violations. And there also settlement agreements that have stipulated penalties which require them to pay quarterly.
You say that like it means something. The EPA is an administrative agency and is responsible for the largest pollutions lawsuits ever filed or awarded.
Not sure why you are down voted
Three of the dirtiest coke batteries will be shut down early next year. No one is certain how much that will help the air quality, but some estimates are about a 20% reduction.
Yep, here's a conservative estimate on what it would do:
According to a report by Public Source, if that 17% reduction in coke production leads to a 17% improvement in emissions, it would make the pollution levels in the Mon Valley more in line with neighborhoods like Lawrenceville and better than the air quality in North Braddock, Wilkinsburg, and Neville Island.
Not much can be done short of industrial sabotage. Which would be bad.
Soooo bad
Definitely don't do that.
Yeah, definitely don't do that unless you WANT to see people die. Those places are dangerous enough for their workers, no matter what type of remediation is in place. They don't need sabotaging to make things even more dangerous for them.
Are you seriously advising people to not commit acts of terrorism as if it's likely to happen?
Vote in elections, take part in surveys, and talk to people in your social groups.
Lol. Who exactly do you think we should be voting for?
People who are aligned with the views that you hold and best represent the things you think are important.
Yeah, I don't think those people ever make it to the main dance though.
"best represent" is not "perfectly represent"
No, but there’s a point where “best represent” is so far away from what you’d actually like to support that it’s severely demoralizing, and leads people to question the efficacy of the entire thing. Continually telling people the solution is to vote, and vote, and then keep voting isn’t wrong, per se, but it is glib, and can turn off people whose problem is disaffection, not apathy.
So suggest something better.
I feel like you’re missing the point. I’m giving one possible reason why a lot of people feel that the electoral process doesn’t represent them and doesn’t seem like something that they can meaningfully have an impact on. I’m not trying to argue that there’s a better way. I’m just saying that preaching to people about voting probably isn’t having the effect you’d like it to.
I'm fully aware of it. I think everyone is.
The problem is that people, you included, are very, very quick to say the same thing.
"But Voting Didn't INSTANTLY Fix All My Problems!"
Yeah. We all know. There's some 50% of the population that varies between selfishly hating change and being straight up regressive - those people aren't going to magically go anywhere.
So my response to you, and everyone saying this, is... PLEASE, if anyone knows of something better LET ME KNOW.
Fucking hell, I am totally open to a better solution! I even buried the voting thing in between two other things, because I know it's not a good solution.
Right now, in these united states, it's the most powerful option we have, though. So let's not get caught up in disparaging it.
Politicians are like a zit.
You only get something out of them if you pressure them. HARD.
It's a gross analogy, but it's accurate.
When I worked for a member of Congress, he'd always ask how the mail and calls were running.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Corruption prevents the functioning of our republic. We need a purge of current career politicians, term limits, and a reigning in of the federal reserve.....which representives which have a meaningful chance of winning are representing these ideals?
All I've heard is 1 party wants to cut kids dicks/ tits off as children and the other party wants to make children birth their own incestuous grandchildren.
I'll pass on both of those options thank you very much
I’m actually super glad you don’t vote since apparently you can’t even do basic research into civics or social issues.
I'm glad people like you are out here saving us with your vote LMAO
We elect those people all the time, they just don't actually do what they say they will
You think there's a politician out there who wants to be on record for costing jobs? It's career suicide.
It shouldn't be a career in the first place.
Go to the Breathe Project website, learn about their current campaigns and help them.
These people are not a bunch of impotent talkers. One of their affiliated groups, GASP, took on the issue of diesel buses idling outside of schools, spewing dangerous pollution. That's now illegal and most schools have "no idling" signs posted.
As long as we have politicians like Fitzgerald who never saw a polluting industry he didn't back, it remains frustrating and difficult. Need I repeat the importance of voting?
GASP also is really good about letting people know how to take action, whether it's what meetings to attend, items seeking public comment or petitions to sign and so forth.
I came here to suggest GASP. I also know someone who's making a documentary on air quality in Pittsburgh.
Take a guess how Fitz made his money
Wanna bet he'll be one of those politicians who accepts a job with a company he should have been helping to regulate? Maybe media consultant for the ET Works or the cracker plant?
Are diesel busses what we're talking about here?
I mean I agree, you shouldn't do that. But doesn't it seem like a diversion?
No, it's not a diversion. I was simply using the diesel bus issue as an example of how GASP actually accomplished a change. People tend to dismiss these organizations as ineffectual, and they aren't.
Honestly? Nothing. That plant has been there so long that when it was built almost every country in Europe had a royal family.
Pittsburghs air also hasn’t been this clean since basically the 1700s.
Other major sources of pollution in this city? Our open air sewers (sulfur oxides). People driving cars faster than 45 mph (tire dust particulate). People driving large vehicles that don’t have turbochargers (petroleum distillates). Any diesel vehicle. Male trees (pollen). Wood burning (particulates, smog).
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Bruh, the US Thompson Steel plant is the 9th worse polluter in the area. Clairton coke works isn’t even in the top 10.
There are about 3 dozen mills and factories in the area whose pollution outputs are far worse— 100s of tons of lead, cadmium, nickel, chromium, cobalt, benzene and xylene dumped into the environment annually.
The top 10 polluters in the area produce 70% of all air pollution and released over 1,000,000 pounds of toxic waste into the air in 2019.
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I worked with a guy that works as an inspector there. He got married when I worked with him. His now wife sent him to pick up buns for the reception. He didn't buy any because she wanted 8 packs of 12 but they only had packs of 8 so he left empty handed. He told me the story and I said, ', why didn't you just get 12 packs of 8?" He said he didn't think of that and that's why she's mad. I'm not even kidding, the dude couldn't even figure out how to buy 96 buns...I have no doubt if he still works there today, he is somehow connected to the violations.....nothing to see here...
I was waiting for the part where his good friend at US Steel paid for the buns.
Burn it down. Figuratively speaking of course. Our politicians aren't going to shut it down. They aren't going to punish those responsible. Picket the buildings. Block entry ways. Until enough people care to protest in numbers, and overturn police protection of the capitalists, this will continue.
There is a guy with a gun for a hand. I think he leads an offshoot extreme bunch part of a larger activist group called avalanche. They hang out at a bar “777” or something like that. They should be able to shut down those coke batteries for good.
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AVALANCHE is currently busy destroying power substations around the country, haven't you heard?
I know that guy, I've seen him around with a guy with a big sword and spiky hair
If the Mon Valley was a pizza, what kind of pizza would it be?
(Curious)
The mon valley IS Altoona pizza, cold, in plastic wrap, sold at unimart.
Also, not to sound like an old person and I know its about as helpful as talking about pollution on Reddit, that plant is like 100%+ better than it used to be. Like a warm summer picnic with grapes and cheese.
Tbh, get Sara inamorato elected as executive
That's the neat part: you can't do anything about it. They've done all the regulatory capture already, so they own all the politicians they need to continue doing what they're doing.
I remember reading something a year or so back that the mill could make all the repairs/upgrades necessary to reduce the pollution, but they would have to shut down temporarily to do so and are fighting against having to do that. Not sure how they could be compelled to do so, but a solution is possible.
Keep voting for people like John Fetterman. He lived there and tells you how great it is.
Is there a town hall meeting you can go to? I am not familiar with that area much, but gathering a group of people in a protest wouldn’t be a bad idea. Could also sight some studies done on the link between lung cancers and pollution.
Edward Abbey
Having worked across the fence line from coke ovens, I understand the concern. But also consider the practical, political implications. You will be eliminating a lot good paying blue collar jobs which is the perfect environment for Trump like politicians to move in and blame the tree huggers.
A lot, how many people work there?
The place operates round the clock in 12 hr shifts. The entire Mon Valley Works employs around 3,000 people, almost all union workers. Can't find anything for numbers at Clairton specifically.
120 at the coke ovens. Which is the culprit. Coke is produced elsewhere, and with modern pollution controls that don't violate the law.
Yeah, I’d prefer they clean it up rather than shut down. Either retrofit or tear it down and rebuild
I saw the number 1100 quoted once, maybe by Fetterman
These few hundred people need to lose their job if they're giving us all serious health problems from the pollution. The loss of those jobs is more than worth it. It would be cheaper to just pay those people to do nothing at their previous salaries than to endure this public health nightmare.
It's more like tens of thousands of jobs....there is an entire economy built around those mills. There will be ridiculous ripple effects to outright closing those mills...
Yeah, my thoughts when people talk about "Just shut it all down!!!" is "Okay, and what do you do with the people who are now unemployed?". The obvious solution, at least imo, would be to have some kind of program in place to transition current workers at places like Clairton to a different job where they can receive paid training. Something they won't need a degree for, and something not too crazily different from their current work. You'd want to make the change as smooth and painless as possible for everyone so that the people who will inevitably whine and moan about it don't rally all the unemployed workers and their families behind them.
But of course that would require people in charge actually caring about workers at all.
Harmful industries shouldn't be continued as some kind of jobs program.
I didn't say anywhere in that that it should be the same industry. I meant that they should be transitioned away from this industry to different jobs that they could reasonably do. If we have to kill off a place where people work, we should at least try to care about the people who will inevitably get left behind now that the job they've been doing for years, possibly decades, is defunct. Finding opportunities for them in jobs that won't harm the environment or other people that they'd be well-qualified for is the only thing I can think of doing that wouldn't potentially ruin their lives.
The people who just want to pull the plug on those mills clearly don’t know the history of the area. We already tried that once and it’s turned all of those areas in to what we call “economically depressed regions” (shitholes)
Buy it and close it.
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The local government can only fine them. You need the Federal Government to step in.
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Do we want everything made in China ? Got to have some factories and shuthole areas or we will be at the mercy of others.
Only here because I read Clairton Milf
Nothing.
Fines that become part of ordinary operating costs are fines that are too low.
Local (city and municipal or ACHD), state or federal officials all have standing to sue (for real, hundreds of millions proportionate to profits and damages) under the Clean Air Act. They could also issue criminal charges as these acts are intentional. They do not.
So if you continue to vote for the same people in office, you will get no change.
Vote out all the incumbents. I realize that people won't do that because it may let in some "worse" person from an opposing party. All I can say is that if you keep voting for the lesser of two evils, you get evil.
Okay, I’m very curious if you can link me these MEGA MILLION DOLLAR lawsuits that have happened. Also as noted those are citizen suits under the CAA.
Good god, read a newspaper. Or just google and you would quickly find the EPA database (https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/cases-and-settlements) of both civil and criminal violations and settlements.
Things like the Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the gulf. Which resulted in a $20.8 billion dollar fine. Or Volkswagon's $14 billion dollar settlement for their diesel emissions. The list is very long.
Those are outliers not the norm. Those cases require the DOJ cooperating. It is not normal to get that relief. Yes the EPA is an administrative agency but it’s also a federal agency. They have additional resources. The Volkswagen case started in 2009.
There are literally hundreds of them in that database. I just picked out two well known ones since you asked for a link.
You keep throwing out more red herrings after I answer your questions. It makes me doubt your motives, and I suspect we both know the (1) DOJ doesn't need to "cooperate" to file either a civil, or even criminal suit and (2) the state DEP and the ACHD are perfectly capable of filing these suits. As per many of the examples in that database. Looking through those, it is clear they sometimes all pile on, and sometimes states go it alone.
I went to law school for environmental law. I am perfectly capable in knowing how it works. It is not easy. I said to get THOSE types of cases you do would need DOJ cooperation especially with criminal charges. You can’t just say well obviously it’s intentional.
The consent decrees are literally US Steel saying "we know normal operation of our facility violates the CAA, and here's how we intent to continue". You think you need the DOJ to set up some kind of FBI sting operation? Their guilt is clearly not in question to anyone, including them.
At this point, I am pretty sure you are an astroturfer, and not an environmental lawyer. The downvotes on where I pointed out the EPA lawsuit database make it clear what is going on.
Yeah it's atrocious and astounding that this is allowed to keep happening in 2022
Rumor has it they will be closed in 5-10 years. USX is building a new mill somewhere down south and will Move production. Remember when they were growing to revamp Braddock and then they didn’t. It is because they are moving operations.
It’s smells putrid right now across from Edgar Thompson works on 12/30 at 10:35 pm
Elect a county executive next year who will make certain the health department enforces air quality standards. Our current exec makes sure they don’t.
Yeah let’s just shut the mill down and rid men of their jobs so they no longer can provide for their families because you “believe” and “heard” with no proof.
Volunteer for the Sara Innamorato campaign!
I called Judas Priest and they said British Steel.
Well there's only two ways. Arson or outlawing them entirely. Given both parties are pro business shitheads that wouldn't dare touch anyone creating jobs, your only real option would be arson. Good luck with it. My lungs are behind you... And me... Trailing by about 3 feet.
Nothing. No politician wants to be on record for causing people to lose their jobs. If you want cleaner air then your best option is to move. The Mill isn't going away.
Absolutely nothing, and honestly there are a lot of people whose livelihood depends on that place so you probably wouldn’t want to if you could.
"Come sacrifice your lungs on the altar of livelihood"
“Breathe deep, the gathering gloom..”
120 workers at most. That doesn't begin to compare to how many jobs have been chased away by this situation. I know of two people myself that declined local high tech jobs because of our air pollution. Both after having been here for grad school. So they weren't ignorant.
Where are you getting that number? They claim 1400 full time people last year.
That document is hilarious. I read the whole thing, and the takeaway is that "due to their relentless pursuit of environmental excellence" they are a model of green industry.
I think their employment numbers are in line with the rest of their duplicitous propaganda there. They don't break out the coke battery workers and the "ancillary workforce", so if it isn't an outright lie, they are rolling in a bunch of unrelated workers for the steel plant.
I’m glad to see you think 120 jobs don’t matter, I’m sure they do to the people who hold them. I’m sure someone else took those tech jobs so the people you know leaving really doesn’t matter in the end
You'd have 120 jobs doing active damage to our real economic base (Eds and Meds) . Our region would be better if they didn't exist.
Do you defend Fentanyl dealers? There are probably at least 100 of them in the region. Wouldn't want them to be out of work either.
Wow, must make you feel nice to dehumanize entire groups of people because you think you are better than them.
120 jobs is worth nothing compared to health of the people who live or work in the area
Stop down at night, and wait until the lights come on, it looks like it’s snowing everyday from all the asbestos. Granted this was 10+ years ago but that was the dirtiest place I’ve ever worked.
What is the cause of the poor air in and around Harrisburg? Any idea?
DC traffic. Coal power plants.
Dc traffic in Harrisburg?
The cold air and lack of UV light creates a smog that settles into Appalachia’s Ridge-and-valley region. In winter time, the two largest sources of pollution are heating and traffic.
Harrisburg is only 40 miles from the edges of the DC metro area border.
There are some exaggerators, no doubt. It’s like the best air quality in the entire eastern US right now:
https://map.purpleair.com/1/mAQI/a10/p604800/cC0#4.95/40.06/-78.13
mmphoto412 t1_j291df2 wrote
It’s certainly something our “Pittsburgher of the year” isn’t interested in fixing.