Fwiw, the neighbor is not friendly

Take the fence down on your property.

Need more info. What law firms are you talking to? I can’t think of why they would not take your case. They’re just billing you by the hour for one, and for another it’s absolutely worth pursuing because of the risk of adverse possession and the problems you might run into if you ever want to sell your house and the fence line does not match the property line.

Correct, the fact that it's adverse possession is exactly my problem. We've talked to about 4 law firms. Shaheen, for one .

Take “your” fence down and let him contact law enforcement to try to prove you wrong.

I would give him one chance to either remove himself, or you remove it without damaging if possible, and place it back onto his own property.

Either way, set up some sort of property marker so he doesn't make that mistake again

I know you said the neighbor isn't friendly, but did you talk to them?

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How dare you suggest talking to your neighbors?! Don’t you know, people here hate that. They’ll suggest calling cops before speaking to neighbors almost every time.

Real estate lawyers should be the ones who can help you the most. I don't know the law in Virginia about this, but when something similar happened to my father, he told the neighbor to move it or he would demand rent for the use of his property.

How big is your property? Standard city/suburban neighborhood, or are we talking acres here?

Tear 8t down. Problem solved.

Shaheen did my mortgage closing, and they have provided guidance since on a few boundary issues. Did they provide a reason why this wasn’t worth pursuing?

Maybe it varies state to state, but when I lived in NY I had a neighbor file a formal complaint with the city regarding a garden shed built within 5 feet of his property line. The city took over from there and issued a cure notice. I would tend to think this would be the civil step before litigation, but maybe Richmond is different. For something like that it shouldn’t be necessary to begin with an attorney.

I use shaheen for a lot of my closings and that seems very bizarre.

My boyfriend is an attorney, and has handled these exact types of cases. I feel there's information you're leaving out if you've been turned away by 4 law firms saying it's not worth pursuing (I'd share his firm's info, but they're exceedingly busy at the moment).

It doesn't matter if they're friendly or not. IF It's on your property, Remove it. Let the burden of proof fall on them. Have your papers in your hand when the police are called, they will walk away and your neighbor will have to go to court.

It’s your property.

😂 downvote me all you want but attempts to resolve issues instead of jumping to litigation helps your case in the long run, especially if you can document them being ridiculous or unreasonable. Even if it didn't, I'm not sure why conflict resolution is looked down upon here. Sometimes we have to have awkward or uncomfortable conversations with people who are not nice. 🤷‍♀️

You just need to find the right lawyer. Sometimes that’s hard to do.

The lawyer should draft you a letter threatening them to take the fence off of your property.

Send a certified letter saying they have 30 days to take it down and then if they don't, you remove it.

In my case, my neighbors are nuts. I don’t engage or talk to them but I do text if something big comes up.

Why wouldn't lawyers take the case?

>I had a surveyor confirm it

Did the surveyor mark the corners, or just give you advice?

Virginia statutes on fences and boundaries:

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title55.1/chapter28/

You can also confirm what your property line should be on the GIS parcel mapper:

https://cor.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=c3ed34c0fb38441fb95cd2d2d6a22d48

Random google search brings up these guys, which seem to specialize in boundary disputes (they recommend negotiating, if possible, before taking things to court):

https://cedlawfirm.com/do-i-need-an-attorney-for-boundary-line-disputes-in-virginia/#:~:text=Virginia%20Boundary%20Fence%20Statute&text=Virginia%20Code%20%C2%A7%2055.1%2D2821,lie%20open%20or%20agree%20otherwise.%E2%80%9D

You own the fence. Dig it up and rebuild it on your property line. Paint it. Do whatever you want, and if the neighbor has an issue, now the cops and courts will enjoy getting involved. As long as they can make money.

Set the fence on fire...do whatever you want fam, it's yours.

How has no one recommended the obvious? Build a fence 5 to 8 feet into his property line. Declare the area in between the DMZ.

Here's exactly what to do. Get three or four friends to come over who are ready to help you, and if you truly don't want the fence where it's at, go talk to the guy whether or not he's friendly and explain to him that a surveyor can prove that the fence isn't on his property or in the right of way or anything like that and that you don't want it where it's at and then work out a deadline with him to fix the problem, or give him a specific hard date of when you're going to tear it down and dispose of it and send him a bill for the work. Give him a bunch of reasonable options but be firm and be ready to follow through. If a surveyor backs up your land claim, there ain't shit he can do in court it's all just going to be social politics after that. Record all your conversations, take pictures and don't leave anything to hearsay. If you truly don't want the fence be fair and be firm. You'll have to realize that this dude probably made a mistake and followed through with a big project while being in the wrong so it will more than likely be that he won't swallow his pride and do the right thing. When people fuck up like this you got to put your foot down especially when it comes to the sovereignty of your property.

This isn't about lawyers and going to court and getting a judge to waive their gavel around. Call him out on his bullshit but be strategic and calm and calculating. Show him the survey, find local law president about how you can legally tear it down and then also have the social standing to make it clear that there's nothing he can do to stop you from doing that and that he can fix it or he can eat it.

I mean you can take the fence down since its your property.

Document everything.

Send them a well-written letter demanding they remove their fence from your property, including proof of survey, etc. via certified mail (so they must sign and acknowledge receipt of letter). Tell them they have 30 days to remove it or you will have it removed and send them an itemized bill for said removal.

When it comes time to take action, if the neighbor calls police, show the popo the proof and they should tell neighbor it's a civil matter and won't make you stop. Remove the fence and deposit all materials back on the neighbor's property so they cannot claim theft. Record the removal on video of possible.

You can try r/legaladvice, but they'll likely just tell you to contact them state bar for a referral to an appropriate attorney.

If the surveyor hasn't already, have them mark the corners of the property in a way that cannot be altered.

This is the way.

The quickest way to get do-not-like votes is to call this sub out on its' bullshit.

While also declaring ACAB.

Send them a certified letter stating they built on your property and that you are taking possession of the fence.

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You may not have to "get a lawyer involved." But I'm suprised you can't even find a lawyer to draft a letter for you. They will be able to cite any laws and the survey etc and make it pretty tight, whereas anything you write might end up sounding too passive or even the opposite: threatening.

Have you talked to your neighbor with the surveyor’s findings?

Not trying to be facetious. It’s the best way without spending time in court.

If you have and no luck there, I really don’t know….

Maybe a complaint to city council?

This.

People saying “just remove it” are getting way ahead of themselves. Send a letter by USPS (don’t just drop it off to him) and have the record of it all. Then give another letter after X days and say you will remove it within X days.

Protect yourself OP.

Also, I get the feeling OP isn’t giving us ALL the details.

‘It’s not worth pursuing’ sounds like a sus response to receive from multiple attorneys. I thought the job of an attorney was to objectively present information in a persuasive manner. Seems like at least some of them would have told you you’re looking at a long, expensive pursuit and let you decide if it’s ‘worth pursuing’, or just declined the case without reason. Maybe you didn’t mean it that literally but it’s written like it was maybe only imagined. I would also think that surely at least one of them would tell you the appropriate course of action if you wanted to pursue it. Too common of a problem for this to be at a true impasse.

Also, for a surveyor being involved, the word ‘confirm’ doesn’t tell us much. Does that mean you had the property surveyed? A friends uncle who’s a surveyor stopped by and gave it a head-nod?

It sounds like if this is truly the situation and you’ve truly pursued all of those avenues you would have found something more substantial than Ask Reddit.

but you've talked to them and they refuse to move the fence?

Not relevant - is there an easement on the fenced part of your property which the neighbor might have misunderstandings about?

This seems like something big.

I didnt choose my words the best, my apologies. To be more clear, one law firm we talked to told us we essentially could just take it down and it didn't need to go to court. We talked to others to confirm if that was the case but one firm was too busy to follow up, one wanted way too much money, and the other said it was a civil case and they only took on criminal cases. The surveyor was a licensed contractor that we hired to define the property lines, marked by stakes and plotted on a map. We've tried sending a certified notice but they refused to sign for it , so that didn't pan out. We tried talking to the courts about it, but they said we needed to be represented by a lawyer. Cops said it was a civil matter and they couldn't do anything. I asked for help here because I didn't know what to do

It's your house Jim!

Have you talked to your neighbor about it?

Oh ok, my apologies for such a brash response on my end. Seriously, look into the city of richmond and zoning. This really seems to be something they should take care of, but so do roads…

Think of it like calling law enforcement except it’s for property infringement, which is a civil matter. The city has a tremendous amount of power via fines, leins, even escalating it if needed - that’s not to say RVA will do all of that, but that’s where I would start since the city never hesitates to get into your business when they decide it’s appropriate.

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Unfortunately..

https://www.rva.gov/planning-development-review/faq

>There is nothing that the City can do about this issue; this is a private matter between the individual parties and must be resolved in civil court. Fences and privacy walls (or certain other structures) that are on your property without your permission are a civil matter between the owners and the City typically cannot force their removal. Contact an attorney experienced in real estate or property law in matters regarding property line disputes. The property survey will typically show all improvements on the property, including fences, walls and building setbacks, that may also help assist in determining the location of your property line.

Eeeewwww. I was afraid that was the case; I was just so spirited about my idea because I’ve been on the receiving end of that in a nonsensical scenario and the city was probably more aggressive than an attorney would haven been, for the same infraction.

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GIS parcel boundaries are absolutely not precise enough for something like this.

If it’s a few feet of land that you really don’t care about you could offer to sell him the property that the fence is on.

You seem like you’re being extremely cool about this.

Question, just out of curiosity: If a survey is done, do they send that to the City/GIS Dept to fine tune the GIS maps?

Yes but I text or email to have things in writing. Seems to keep them from going off the deep end or repeatedly trying to push their agenda when permission already denied. I’ve had to consult a lawyer about them. I’m an old and these are the first neighbors I’ve EVER had trouble with. And I’m not the only one…they don’t get along with any other neighbor around them. My situation came to mind reading about the fence on others property. Hope OP gets some help with his neighbors soon.

I'd ask them politely to move it back to their side of the property line. Then, if they want to be cunts about it you move on to legal. If legal can't help take a chainsaw to the part that is on your side of the property line.

Concur. Make a record of communication between you and the neighbor that can be used as evidence if this ever goes to court.

Have you tried Harvey & Driggs? I work for a homebuilder and we had this exact issue with a neighbor. Built a fence through the driveway so we couldn’t access the property to build.

I’m on the consultant side so don’t know all the inner workings. I would guess not and that it’s a matter of manpower to process them all. I mostly see boundaries adjusted when parcels are split or right of way is acquired. Looking at the project I have up now, GIS boundaries of some right of way that was acquired within the last 10 years is within 3” of what our survey shows. Right of way that was established in the 50s varies in accuracy, could be dead on or it could be 5’ offset. Skimming through the property boundaries most are pretty close but might be a few feet off. Probably a third have at least one boundary that is 10+ feet from where our survey says it should be including several from a development that was split in the 90s.

Usually yes, but it’s often up to the surveyor or home owner to send the gis data to the gis department of the county/city. It really depends on the jurisdiction. Source: have been the gis manager for local jurisdictions in the past.

If you don’t do something for an extended period of time, that person will own that 5-8 feet of your property.

Did you bring it up to your neighbor first? I would start there if you haven't.

Just tagging on:

I bought a house in 2021 and realized after purchase that one of my neighbor's dirt "driveways" is made up of approximately one-third to one-half my property.

Haven't been sure what to do about it because I know the risks of adverse possession, but I also don't want to piss them off—they're nice and they park their tow truck there because they can back it out into the T-intersection.

How much would a consultation cost?

EDIT: To be clear, my ideal solution is that they get to keep using it, but without being able to claim adverse possession down the line. Like it really doesn't bother me, but I don't want them to be able to say "this is mine" later. I was hoping I could get them to sign something waiving any future claim to adverse possession or something. IDK, I'm not a lawyer, which is why I've been wanting to talk to one.

Why didn’t you say something while the fence was being installed?

I would just take it down.

Probably moot, but do you have title insurance? We recently purchased a home on a new lot and it came highly recommended if any of the longer standing neighbors made claims about what was marked as our land.

And don't forget the land mines and barbed wire. No half measures.

I was looking for this question before asking it myself lol

You would need an easement type of paperwork. You own it but they use it for free

My neighbors on both sides of me have had surveys done in the last couple of years.

In one case, with a long time neighbor, my yard is about a foot onto their property, but the fence has been there in one form or another for at least 70 years, so we didn't bother trying to fix anything.

The recent developer/neighbor got a survey after I suggested the existing line might be off, and I got about two feet more property and a tree that previously was shared by us.

Neighbors across the street had their property surveyed, and their fence was placed wrong (a long time ago), meaning four feet of their yard is currently in their neighbors yard.

I’d pee on that fence. Every day. My yard. I’m peeing on it. 100%

Try proper channels first.

If fail, reddit r/RVA chainsaw party?

this is great advice but I would be very worried about neighbor flipping out and going full crazy/violent/tire slashy.

Am surveyor. Deal with fences over lines all the time. My assumption? It was either built while he was at work, so he just came home one day to it being there, or it's possible he had not ever actually had a survey before, so he had no proof where the line was and didn't want to start a spat over what would've been just his gut feeling.

Thus, he hired a surveyor after the fact who discovered the fence was over the property line and that his gut feeling was right all along. It's worth noting that most people aren't hostile, even when confronted with the fact that they built a fence wrong. But the ones who are unfriendly about it obviously are because they're generally unhinged anyway.

My response when a rare neighbor does disagree with my line markings is just "hire your own surveyor, but they're gonna find the exact same thing I did."

Turns out, they never want to pay $500-$800+ for their own survey, which is why their false interpretations about the lines exist in the first place.

That's a possibility, but any action taken (and some kind of action needs to occur lest OP cede rights to their property) could trigger the neighbor.

They could ask for police presence when they begin removal?

Yeah absolutely. I would cover my ass in every way possible.

Did you find the steel markers in the ground when they surveyed? When we built a fence, I used a metal detector to find them post having a surveyor mark them in the plat. I wanted to be really sure I wasn’t building a fence on my neighbors land.

Start painting it. If it’s on your property there is nothing they can do. Then it will be up to them to find a way to fix it. Saw at the base of the posts that are on your property will have the same effect.

Yes, as far as I understand it the main risk of adverse possession is if they're using your property with your knowledge (that is, you knew or should have known they were using it, whether or not you knew it was your property) and without your permission. Legally granting them permission is neighborly and keeps everybody happy while still cutting off the problem before it escalates. Definitely something you need a lawyer for but it should be on the simpler side assuming everybody mostly agrees on things.

source: not a lawyer but I research property deeds and other legal blood rituals for my work

That's a pretty nice neighbor, they gifted you some lumber, in the form of a fence. Take the fence down if you don't like it.

> The courts don't seem helpful in this matter,

That would imply you've gone to court. Lawyers turning your case down implies you haven't gone to court. Courts don't do anything until you appear before a judge. That's how court works. So this statement makes no sense. You said in another statement that the court won't hear your cause unless you're represented by an attorney and that is simply not true at all. Whoever told you that lied to your face.

Courts DO NOT give legal advice. They are not allowed to. The most they can do is give you the forms you need to fill out to file a case. You look up how to file a court case, fill out the forms (it's not super hard) and you go before a judge. You don't need to have or be a lawyer. A judge will hear your case and decide it on its merits. They are regular people and they will work with you.

Look up how to be a pro se litigant (pro se means representing yourself)

For real though, what you should do is get 2 or 3 quotes from contractors to take the fence down, then take it down yourself (or pay a contractor to do it, its up to you), then leave the lumber in your yard for your neighbor to take back. Then send your neighbor a certified letter saying they have 30 days to collect their lumber or you will sell it. Also warn them (in writing if you prefer, or verbally if you prefer) that if they pursue the matter in court, you will ask the court to award you damages in the amount of the quote from a contractor (assuming you took it down yourself).

If you paid a contractor to do it, you can optionally sue them in small claims court (if under $5k) for the costs associated with taking the fence down. You can also choose to charge them a modest ($10 per day) storage fee for storing their lumber until they take it back. Idk if a storage fee will actually fly in court, but you can't get what you don't ask for.

Here is how to file a claim in small claims court. Lawyers are not allowed in small claims, unless either party happens to be a lawyer.

https://www.vacourts.gov/resources/small_claims_court_procedures.pdf

Adverse possession in Virginia takes 15 years.

Talk to your neighbor even if you don’t like them.

Also, alert the fence company, there is probably a little plaque on the fence with their name and phone number. They are likely more sensitive to your concerns and should have had a survey or reliable plat before installing. If not, they’ll hade a document that their client assumed the liability of the location. Just don’t fucking threaten to sue the fence company from the start. Everyone says that and I see it all over Reddit as advice. I’ve never seen a follow-up post where someone was like, “holy shit y’all, it worked . . . I’m rich bitch!”

This is the way.

How did they not sign for the notice? That’s not a thing. If you send by certified mail, someone will have to pick it up from the post office even if they aren’t there at the property when the mailman tries to deliver it

Has the fence been built to local codes? Is a permit required for a fence in your area? I'm just thinking if it is not built to code, the local authorities may get involved. May be more leverage against your neighbor.

I’d represent you for free (NOT a lawyer) but i’m worried about your neighbors de-fence…

It’s a delivery requiring a signature, same as any other. They only make so many attempts and then return to sender.

That’s declaring war

Yes... kind of. You have to record the survey with the Clerk of the Circuit Court in your locality. At that point the wheels of bureaucracy start turning (very slowly) and eventually it will trickle down to the GIS dept. You can grease the wheels by sending them a recorded copy of your survey/plat with the recording information but they are not obligated to update it faster. Hope this helps!

give them a license to use

Your title policy should cover this situation, assuming its an extended coverage owner's policy. Meaning it will pay for lawyers to resolve the open issue. So find the title policy and call the provider.

This is pretty simple to do.

They cannot claim adverse possession if the possession was not adverse, so you just need to make it clear you are letting them rent the land with your knowledge. So draft an agreement that basically lays out the space in question and that they can lease it from you for 12 months solely for the purpose of parking their truck for the price of $1.

I mean, you should get a lawyer to do it properly. But you get the idea. As long as you make it clear that it’s your land, and you are explicitly giving them use only for some temporary period of time and specific use, they can’t claim it’s theirs. They’ve signed a statement explicitly stating they are only renting from you.

Saws-All, sledge hammer, copy of survey and copy of the returned certified mail to show the good faith attempt to allow them to resolve their error and in-case police are called, and a few friends to help lift sections of the fence. You could have it down in 2 hours. Beer and BBQ to thank friends and celebrate the re-annexation of Crimea. You can buy the saw and sledge at Harbor Freight for under $50 total probably, $50 on BBQ, and $50 on booze ~ $150.

Smart that you found them (and cheaper than having a surveyor do it.)

The surveyors exposed our steel marker posts where they could (one was either not present or not accessible) and tied pink tape and put little flags next to them. In one case the marker is at the base of a tree, partially embedded in the roots, 6" below the surface, but they found it.

I never knew about the steel pin thing until I read a thread on here where someone described them. It's a really good thing to know!