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BurrDurrMurrDurr t1_j755pz3 wrote

I currently study infectious diseases and have done some work on SARS-CoV-2, maybe I can clear some things up for people.

The "holy grail" for a successful vaccine is triggering the generation of memory B cells and long lived plasma cells. Memory B cells are long-lived, quiescent cells that rapidly respond to antigen when activated and long lived plasma cells (LLPCs) constitutively secrete antibodies throughout their lives and can live as long as we do.

Studies have shown that SARS-CoV-2 vaccination elicit both T and B cell responses and generate antibodies but these antibodies seem to wane after 3-6 months; no LLPCs. This article is highlighting research that shows having natural infection + a vaccination seems to elicit an antibody response that is longer than only vaccination. Data in my lab shows 3-5 months vs 7-10 months and lots of papers I've seen show similar trends.

That's all this article is saying. I don't think it's trying to claim one method is better than another, or to get infected on purpose. We are all (in the field) trying to figure out how to trigger this differentiation into long lived plasma and memory B cells from a vaccine. There are tons of factors mediating this obstacle including mutation rate. Measles and polio, for example, are very stable viruses and don't mutate as often. This contributes to the success of their vaccines as they provide largely lifelong immunity.


[deleted] t1_j76hraa wrote



BurrDurrMurrDurr t1_j76rxyt wrote

Oo that's a great question. That is hard to test since COVID exposure =/= COVID infection. COVID re-infection DOES effectively "reset" your antibody levels assuming you clear the virus after the 2nd infection. If I had to educated-guess this I would say at best, exposure within 7 months of cleared infection might sustain your antibody levels a little longer but again, if there are no memory B or LLPCs made, they will still wane.

After first infection your adaptive immune response generates B cells that make antibodies specifically for the virus. Those B cells and antibodies "stick around" for a while until they wane. Generally it seems your body has elevated and protective amounts of antibodies for at least 3 months after infection. Then they start to drop and GENERALLY after about 7-8 months. At this point a 2nd re-infection is not only possible but your body will react similarly to the first infection, although you should be able to clear it quicker.


zholo t1_j76mllv wrote

This is a great question and I hope there is an immunologist here who can answer it. The follow up question would be then why are we not getting boosters every six months?


priceQQ t1_j772hmv wrote

Partly why not X has to do with trial design early on. It’s harder to do large trials for different regimens. Most people believe the original two courses were too close together though.


Jumpsuit_boy t1_j75tq79 wrote

Are there any vaccines for viruses that generate durable LLPCs?


BurrDurrMurrDurr t1_j76stja wrote

Yes, Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis) vaccine is good for decades.

Measles, smallpox and HPV vaccines also generate LLPCs and provide protection for a long time.


Jumpsuit_boy t1_j775cd8 wrote

Tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis are all bacterial and a couple of the vaccines target the toxin produced by the bacteria and not the bacteria. I asked about viral vaccines.

Measles and HPV are either slow moving or long lasting infections which allow B cells to restart antibodies production over a week of so to stop the infection. They do not need LLPC to be fee effective.


BurrDurrMurrDurr t1_j79l23p wrote

HPV vaccination induces memory B cells^(1) and there are sustained serum antibodies that suggest LLPCs are also vaccine induced^(2)




Jumpsuit_boy t1_j79s80m wrote

I stand corrected. Thank you. The non correlation between B cells and circulating neutralizing antibodies is interesting and given what you are studying pretty exciting. The second paper probably quashes my theory that the sustained circulation was due to exposure since it seems to maintain a constant level after two years. Two questions if you have time. Is this a similar reason for the smallpox vaccination lasting as long as it does? A lot of the vaccines for bacterial infections target the toxins produced by the bacteria so I have mentally separated vaccines for virus snd bacteria into two columns about how long they are effective. Given what you have pointed out just how terrible of a general rule is this?

Once again thank you got taking the time to point out that I was wrong. I do appreciate it.


shipsAreWeird123 t1_j7bragv wrote

There hasn't been a ton of recent testing of the smallpox vaccine. We don't have smallpox challenge trials for example.

Smallpox immunity wanes after vaccination, but still can prevent infection and severe infection.

Part of what makes the smallpox vaccine effective, is that smallpox is not circulating in the population and mutating. Smallpox is also a DNA virus, and DNA viruses tend to have fewer mutations, so vaccines continue to work for them, rather than the flu which is RNA and mutates like crazy. It's probably most effective to think about the antigen that the vaccine is training your body to target, and the delivery mechanism for that.

mRNA vaccines are really going to change the vaccine landscape.


PuckSR t1_j76yq3a wrote

Smallpox isn’t that long. I think it is 5-10 years.


PuckSR t1_j76y3su wrote

Mutation matters, but some rapidly mutating viruses like rabies are easy to immunize for long periods while some slowly mutating viruses are hard.

I have friends who keep asking why we don’t just make all vaccines last for a really long time. I always point out that if you could actually figure out how to do that, you’d win the Nobel prize tomorrow. Also worth noting that there was serious discussion of quarterly vaccines for flu prior to COVID(primarily for at-risk)


basement_orchids t1_j76bf3m wrote

Would vaccination type matter? I’ve seen some data suggesting the adenovirus (jnj or astra) platforms do generate memory B cells and llpcs compared to the mRNA platforms.


Atwood412 t1_j76garm wrote

Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed explanation


braiam t1_j8sqc8n wrote

How long last the immunity response of non-vaccinated infected?


[deleted] t1_j75uhqc wrote



FraseraSpeciosa t1_j77akl7 wrote

No, you absolutely should get boosted as soon as you are eligible. Just because the window from natural protection is still good doesn’t mean you should skip out on boosters even if for only a couple of months. This pandemic is still raging because many people question the rules, have doubts in the brightest scientific minds of our generation and do anything but get vaccinated. You are doing good, but now is not the time to delay life saving treatment. This goes for anyone. Get your boosters! Every moment you wait is another unnecessary death. We have the tools to beat this thing let’s do it!!


renaldey t1_j75qu5y wrote

How long does natural immunity last ? Or do they only study the combination because it's vaccine funded ? If the combination was to last 8 months and natural immunity is 6 months then your adding 2 months with the vaccine ?


Bunktavious t1_j76293q wrote

Assuming you survived getting the disease the first time, while unvaccinated.

Personally, didn't think it was worth the risk.


Tetrylene t1_j7687ou wrote

It takes around 70,000 MRNA vaccinations to be administered prevent one hospitalisation. They probably survived.


Bunktavious t1_j78fhcv wrote

I'd be curious as to see the math for that. It may be accurate, but its a pretty weird stat to be using, even if it is. Which I am doubting.

I'm seeing stats saying roughly 6 million hospitalizations so far, and roughly 100 million cases.

There have been roughly 670 million vaccine doses. If it took 70,000 doses to prevent a hospitalization, that would mean the vaccine has only prevented roughly 10,000 hospitalizations vs the 6 million total. That doesn't remotely add up, considering most of the research puts the odds of hospitalization at about 10x higher for the unvaccinated.

I'll gladly look at your source material if you want to provide it.


Tetrylene t1_j78hb7f wrote

A hospitalisation doesn't necessarily imply a near-fatal or fatal result; it could include just supplying supplementary oxygen.

here are the numbers from the UK government:

The number of vaccinations required to prevent one hospitalisation can go as high as 210,400 for the 30 to 39 not-at-risk age group.


bandrews399 t1_j75lfwa wrote

Just rewatched I, Robot and you’re one of the dumbest smart people. You reiterated OP with a bunch of scientific lingo. You reiterated the narrative of the last two years that “science” is savior while reinforcing the fact you have not yet found the “holy grail”. And your holy grail for a successful vaccine is still not as effective as natural immunity. It’s a noble goal and o appreciate your efforts to get there. But it’s fucked up to portray the Covid vaccine effort as an advancement when it doesn’t even match up to natural immunity/defenses.


THE_MAGIC_OF_REALITY t1_j75nuiz wrote

I think the funniest part of this to me is that you're getting your philosophy from the movie adaptation of I, Robot


yourmomma77 t1_j75pzk4 wrote

And the second funniest thing is reading your name in regard to your comment this is guy getting his philosophy from I, Robot.


JoudiniJoker t1_j76g9qv wrote

Explain that first sentence, please.

I double goddamn guarantee you that the writer of the book wouldn’t be on your side of this weird antivax stuff. He was one of the smartest English speaking humans alive in my lifetime.


TasteofPaste t1_j74e14g wrote

Oh boy a whole 8 months!!!

That’s almost long enough until the next flu season!


WhatsUpWithThatFact t1_j74ugav wrote

It happened to me and I am 7 months out. I'll let you know how next month goes. Covid sucks


Roninkin t1_j74yc2y wrote

That seems to be about how often me and my mom end up with Covid…perhaps it’s somewhat true.


OakLegs t1_j76jp3e wrote

At this point I am just resigning to the inevitability of catching COVID multiple times. Had it once, will probably get it again.


FraseraSpeciosa t1_j77aybx wrote

If you follow the precautions and get boosted you have very little to worry about. It’s the people who still think they can just run around with no mask, no vax, and no empathy that is biting us in the ass


dbx999 t1_j78fj6h wrote

You know, I'm all about science is great and so are vaccines, but I got my 4th shot (the Bivalent booster) and tested positive for covid 3 weeks later.

I am laid up for a full day after each shot (except for the first one) and then I was laid up for about 5 days after getting Covid. And this is with all my vaccinations.

I didn't die and I didn't get on a ventilator but I don't think I would have anyway. I just found that the entire experience of staying on top of my shots but still getting taken down by Covid for a couple of weeks (I was still feeling poorly after being bedridden for a week) to be disappointing for being fully vaxxed.


Mountainstreams t1_j785dv6 wrote

I caught omicron just over 12 months ago from kids who got it at school. There have been a few Covid outbreaks this winter in their class too but we have avoided getting it so far. Though I’m suspicious we could have picked up an asymptomatic infection this year instead?


dbx999 t1_j78fueq wrote

It's possible you carried an asymptomatic infection but I think it's more likely you didn't get fully infected despite a few exposures. We got covid last month from our kids getting it at school too. The school was and is emailing notices every day an active case is reported. So far we get 5 notices per week.


Stein_um_Stein t1_j751od6 wrote

I'm five shots in. I'm sure I'll eventually get COVID, but I'd rather get my natural boost after as much unnatural help as possible.


SteakandTrach t1_j75iq61 wrote

Also, why take a chance on getting long COVID if at all possible?


Stein_um_Stein t1_j76e2yl wrote

Would definitely not do it intentionally, just mean that it's somewhat inevitable as it spreads through the whole human race...


FraseraSpeciosa t1_j77b8es wrote

You are boosted, you do everything right, as long as you mask and avoid very crowded areas you are straight. I’ve been isolated since the beginning and it’s a little boring but I am still alive and healthy. Like you I have had all 5 vaccinations and I still wear a mask anytime I leave the house. It’s really something that good habits provided by experts actually work


smash8890 t1_j775jwv wrote

I caught Covid for the first time after 4 shots and all I had was a scratchy throat for a couple days. It’s probably way safer to catch it after all the vaccines


holaprobando123 t1_j757uct wrote

>I'm sure I'll eventually get COVID



W0666007 t1_j75coia wrote

Bc it’s extraordinarily contagious and not going anywhere.


SteakandTrach t1_j75ivvx wrote

Fun fact: it appears Omicron was an evolved stain from the original and Delta that was MUCH more infective but a lot less pathogenic, which follows historic trends with other viruses. From an evolutionary standpoint, viruses don’t “want” to kill us, they want us alive and transmitting virus. So evolution tends to select for viruses that cause less harm. Will that happen in 4 years, 40 years, or 400 years? No one knows.

We already have 4 coronaviruses that are just the common cold because they have fine-tuned themselves to circulate among us without causing us much harm. COVID will likely be the 5th, it’s a question of “when”.


Frosti11icus t1_j766r3o wrote

Ya...those coronaviruses became "colds" over the course of millennia...


SteakandTrach t1_j77j6oo wrote

I don’t think anyone really knows when they did this. Could have been millennia, could have been the 1600s. That’s paraphrasing the virologist that gave a CME lecture on COVID I attended 2 days ago.


Frosti11icus t1_j77sx74 wrote

Well pretty safe to say it wouldn’t be in our lifetimes if we just wait for it.


Shokoyo t1_j76t7ao wrote

> From an evolutionary standpoint, viruses don’t “want” to kill us, they want us alive and transmitting virus.

From an evolutionary standpoint, that only matters if a) mortality is generally high and b) people die before transmitting the virus. Both is not the case with COVID


holaprobando123 t1_j75ma8u wrote

I don't hear of it anymore in my country. It's not like we're in the height of the pandemic anymore.


fafarex t1_j75xbex wrote

What you hear of it indicates only that media have moved on, not that the virus has.

You need to look the actual data yourself.


Stein_um_Stein t1_j75843q wrote

Almost everyone i know has had it. Only a handful in my family actually, but almost all of my coworkers. Seems inevitable.


ShelZuuz t1_j76jeff wrote

Me, who always wear a mask around coworkers: “I’ve never had COVID”

“How is that possible??”

“I always wear a mask”

“That’s dumb. A mask isn’t going to help you. You will get it eventually. I’ve had COVID 4 times.”

“Do you wear a mask?”



BuddyTheDog92 t1_j757abh wrote

My wife and daughter, both fully vaxed, caught COVID twice within 6 weeks. They each had a mild case and a moderate case- wife was moderate first, mild the second time. Daughter vice versa


Frogs4 t1_j76k0he wrote

Me and my child, both fully vaccinated, got COVID before Xmas. The only sign was the positive test, no symptoms at all.


supagirl277 t1_j75i9tw wrote

But the point is to not have to go through the risk of getting Covid in the first place, so when at all possible, please don’t purposely expose yourself


dbx999 t1_j78gaj9 wrote

exposing yourself gets you on a registry


JerrodDRagon t1_j76h0ry wrote

Two questions

  1. I swore I was seeing head lines that after your third booster they were not as affective

  2. how much does eating healthily/exercising help you from dying or getting extremely sick from covid?


Frogs4 t1_j76kdip wrote

Eating well and exercise helps you recover from virtually everything. Keeping your machine in good nick is bound to lessen symptoms and speed up recovery. It's not a substitute for medical treatment, but by golly, it helps.


shipsAreWeird123 t1_j7bru2b wrote

If people were getting vaccinated as soon as they could, in the US, for many people the circulating variants were different by the time you needed to get your fourth booster. It became more clear that we needed a bivalent booster, but it wasn't quite out yet.

My guess is that it wasn't that it wasn't effective, just less effective than an updated one would be.

Eating well and exercising protects your heart. COVID causes a lot of clotting. It might just be that people with healthy hearts are better able to handle the stress on the body than people whose hearts are already stressed.


FraseraSpeciosa t1_j77bktx wrote

You probably did, that is an insidious example of false news. Among reputable immunologists, that viewpoint is scoffed at. In no way would that ever be true, just more alt right nonsense and yes I know a credentialed scientist wrote that article but if you don’t think the culture wars the republicans are waging do not pay off scientists to manufacture fake results to help their platform then you are highly naive.


batkave t1_j75d3y7 wrote

"get sick so you don't get sick with this specific thing for 8 months"

Like the "it's just the flu" people. Dear god, I don't want to be sick or have problems down the line from this.


ballatthecornerflag t1_j75yhkj wrote

The best way to avoid catching covid in the next 8 months is to catch it now.. I'm speechless at this finding


HalfOrcMonk t1_j76kev9 wrote

We've known that all along, we just couldn't say it out loud.


kartoonist435 t1_j7738lf wrote

Yeah but I’d still rather get a vaccine every year than risk giving covid to my 80+ smoking father.


EquilibriumBoosted t1_j79gnuk wrote

Isn't the point not to get COVID? So get COVID and a vaccine in order to not get COVID for 8 months? Contradicting statement.


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princessfoxglove t1_j74ga1u wrote

I wonder about regional varients though. I had COVID in July in the Middle East, after being vaccinated there, and then got it again in North America less than 5 months later. For people who travel internationally often, are we more susceptible to getting region variants? Maybe I can collect them all!


chaosxq t1_j77qjvl wrote

Just got over my 4th bout of covid. Had the jabs too.


dbx999 t1_j78e9lt wrote

The way I read this sounds like "50% of the time, it works 100% of the time"


Bubbagumpredditor t1_j74act7 wrote

Much better to get vaccinated and then get COVID by licking doorknobs and risk death or crippling medical problems than to just get vaccinated more often I guess?


watabadidea t1_j74inkz wrote

Yeah, cause everyone I know that got COVID contracted it from licking door knobs...


Bubbagumpredditor t1_j75ddzy wrote

Oh, just the ones who think it's better to get COVID than a vaccine.


Cyathem t1_j75v09g wrote

It's not COVID or the vaccine. It's X number of vaccines and COVID. It's not "will I get COVID", it's "when will I get COVID".


watabadidea t1_j76fvv6 wrote

Were you under the impression that the results of this study only applied to people that got COVID on purpose?


sw_faulty t1_j74dgim wrote

Yeah getting ill is pointless, hygiene FTW


BrazenRaizen t1_j76ix37 wrote

So now you need to lick doorknobs to catch covid? Simply breathing within 6ft of someone infected will no longer do?


dbx999 t1_j78gq5l wrote

actually licking a surface will not get you sick with covid. Research has found that particles on surfaces won't get you sick because ingesting covid orally doesn't carry it into the right receptor cells to enter and infect the body. Instead, you swallow it and the stomach acids destroy the virus and you don't get infected.

You have to inhale the virus as it is suspended in the air in microdroplet/aerosol form. This deposits the virus along the lining of your lungs where the ACE2 receptor sites bind with the protein spikes on the virus and this allows the virus to deliver the payload of RNA inside the host cell to incubate and grow and form more covid viruses.


youshouldbethelawyer t1_j77felt wrote

It's almost as if our immune system has developed over millennia to protect us against, influenza viruses such as covid 19. Fascinating! In fact, vaccinated are more susceptible to reinfection, because vaccines are a half ditch attempt to replicate this long developed evolutionary feature that we already possess as animals. Good thing the vaccines were forced on the population to reduce our ability to defend our own immune systems, effectively making our own biological systems a pay to play service!


dbx999 t1_j78v8xe wrote

Covid is a type of corona virus and there are something like 4 or 5 different diseases that come from a corona virus. Sars and Mers are two which preceded covid19. They are typically difficult to develop vaccines for. There are coronaviruses that affect cattle and livestock commonly and those were not vaccinable and causing problems in the cattle industry. With RNA vaccines though, they should be able to develop vax for those too now.


incomprehensibilitys t1_j76mx3p wrote

So I'm supposed to get my shot and also go out and get covid as well?


[deleted] t1_j76kdbu wrote

Sounds like more loose speculation that's a more dangerous than useful.


Shouganaiiii t1_j76ebcy wrote

A «vaccination» that does not vaccinate.

We practically eliminated polio, syphyllus and many other diseases. But not this one. Not even the original covid-19.

How many more «boosters» are we supposed to get? At some point the so called «vaccines» will do more harm than covid itself.


UnRollThePlay t1_j75paby wrote

Any science article that has the sentence “ SEEMS to fade SOMEWHAT faster. “ Is very hard to take seriously. Maybe the most unsure sentence of all time.


icelandichorsey t1_j748zxu wrote

Uncertainty will mean most won't bother to boost and virus will have more mutation opportunities. Not a good outcome.


sids99 t1_j74b6la wrote

The virus won't mutate in a vaccinated person? Plenty of vaccinated people are getting sick with COVID, some seriously.


icelandichorsey t1_j75mf8q wrote

Of course. Vaccinated people get sick less because the virus doesn't get established in them. That's how vaccines work.


Altiloquent t1_j74x51y wrote

Vaccinated people are less likely to get sick and less likely to spread it if they get infected


FraseraSpeciosa t1_j77bymr wrote

No, it doesn’t. The reason vaccinated people are getting sick is because the virus mutates in unvaccinated hosts then it jumps. If we had a vaccine mandate like we almost had then none of this would ever happen. I like Biden but to me that is his biggest blunder. We overnight just quietly drew back all the requirements because a couple alt right man babies cried a little too hard.


GoatXi t1_j74pg55 wrote

Of course it can. The point is to get enough immunity for the virus to simply have nowhere to mutate. Unfortunately that ship sailed long ago.


[deleted] t1_j74p1mx wrote