Comments
geoff199 OP t1_jb5kfsd wrote
That's a good question. It is of course very natural to be sad about a diagnosis of lung cancer. That's not the same as depression. Severe depression is not normal, even if it is somewhat common -- about one-third of patients do have that. The important thing is that the depression can be treated and patients can be helped.
MrMarquis t1_jb67xnj wrote
Me. Why be depressed because that's not going to help anything or anyone. I just stay upbeat because it helps keep my family from being all gloomy and doomy. Having a positive outlook can't hurt.
uberneoconcert t1_jb6fs4j wrote
I wish I could logic my way out of not being able to get up in the morning on those days.
ncktckr t1_jb6e0ca wrote
Depression isn't a little switch you turn on and off, at least not clinical depression which is what I presume the study is talking about. You may mean the colloquial-used "depression" aka situational/reactive depression that many use to mean "really sad for a while" but it's not the same.
See this article from UC Berkeley for an explainer. Here are some quotes:
> Clinical depression is a serious medical illness that negatively affects how you feel, the way you think and how you act. Individuals with clinical depression are unable to function as they used to. Often they have lost interest in activities that were once enjoyable to them, and feel sad and hopeless for extended periods of time. Clinical depression is not the same as feeling sad or depressed for a few days and then feeling better. It can affect your body, mood, thoughts, and behavior. It can change your eating habits, how you feel and think, your ability to work and study, and how you interact with people.
> Clinically depressed people cannot "pull themselves together" and get better. In fact, clinical depression often interferes with a person's ability or wish to get help. Clinical depression is a serious illness that lasts for weeks, months and sometimes years. It may even influence someone to contemplate or attempt suicide.
> Feeling sad and depressed is often a normal reaction to a stressful life situation. For example, it is normal to feel down after a major disappointment, or to have trouble sleeping or eating after a difficult relationship break-up. Usually, within a few days, perhaps after talking to a friend, we start to feel like ourselves again. Clinical depression is very different. It involves a noticeable change in functioning that persists for two weeks or longer.
lolsup1 t1_jb7pjgi wrote
Hope you’re doing well
MrMarquis t1_jb81b69 wrote
Thank you, I am.
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DoctorYoy t1_jb9fnu1 wrote
"Why be depressed?" makes the same amount of sense as "Why have lung cancer?"
Neat_Art9336 t1_jb8stz0 wrote
People that had depression before finding out about the lung cancer
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good_for_uz t1_jb4zq7e wrote
Depression can be an indicator of unknown physical ailments
DoctorYoy t1_jb501dh wrote
Makes sense. If my body is relying on my depressed brain to rally the troops for survival, well, good luck with that.
geoff199 OP t1_jb4rkh2 wrote
Open access study in PLOS ONE: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0282206
greenmachine11235 t1_jb7fim1 wrote
I seem to recall seeing something a year or two ago talking about how chronic inflammation was linked to depression. So maybe the link isn't depression leads to inflammation but rather inflammation leads to depression
InTheEndEntropyWins t1_jb4x8ur wrote
I'm not sure they actually looked at some of the more important factors, exercise, diet and sleep.
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>Variables considered were as follows: age, sex, race, partner status, education level, employment status, and smoking history.
>
>https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0282206
We know that depression is linked to exercise, sleep and diet. The actual mechanisms aren't clear but it could be due to BDNF, increased microcondrial health, brain volume, blood flow, anti-inflammatory, etc.
So it might be that depression is just correlated to poor survival rates, where the actual causal factors are sleep, diet and exercise.
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In this paper they focus on inflammation.
>“Depression should not be discounted. This study shows the strong link between depression and inflammation, with both related to poor outcomes
>
>https://news.osu.edu/depression-linked-to-deadly-inflammation-in-lung-cancer-patients/
Which lines up with the fact exercise, sleep and diet all act as anti-inflammatory.
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>just one session of moderate exercise can also act as an anti-inflammatory.
>
>https://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/pages/2017-01-12-exercise-can-act-as-anti-inflammatory.aspx#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20recently%20published%20online,an%20anti%2Dinflammatory%20cellular%20response.
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Since reddit has a hard on against, sleep, diet and exercise here are a few relevant studies demonstrating the link to depression.
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>Aerobic exercises, including jogging, swimming, cycling, walking, gardening, and dancing, have been proved to reduce anxiety and depression.3 These improvements in mood are proposed to be caused by exercise-induced increase in blood circulation to the brain and by an influence on the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis and, thus, on the physiologic reactivity to stress.3 This physiologic influence is probably mediated by the communication of the HPA axis with several regions of the brain, including the limbic system, which controls motivation and mood; the amygdala, which generates fear in response to stress; and the hippocampus, which plays an important part in memory formation as well as in mood and motivation.
>
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470658/#i1523-5998-8-2-106-b3
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We have studies showing that exercise is just as if not more effective as medicine and therapy in treating depression
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>University of South Australia researchers are calling for exercise to be a mainstay approach for managing depression as a new study shows that physical activity is 1.5 times more effective than counselling or the leading medications. https://www.unisa.edu.au/media-centre/Releases/2023/exercise-more-effective-than-medicines-to-manage-mental-health
>
>In conclusion, PA is effective for improving depression and anxiety across a very wide range of populations. All PA modes are effective, and higher intensity is associated with greater benefit. https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2023/03/02/bjsports-2022-106195
>
>Four trials (n = 300) compared exercise with pharmacological treatment and found no significant difference (SMD -0.11, -0.34, 0.12). From https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24026850/
>
>Running therapy and antidepressant medication had similar effects on mental health (remission and response rates). https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032723002239>
>
>The mechanisms underlying the antidepressant effects of exercise remain in debate; however, the efficacy of exercise in decreasing symptoms of depression has been well established https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474733/
Exercise has massive effects on mitochondria, which might be partly a mechanism in relation to depression.
>Mitochondria Linked to Major Depression in Older Adults https://today.uconn.edu/2023/02/mitochondria-linked-to-major-depression-in-older-adults/#>
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Sleep, exercise and depression are all linked to brain volume
>Conclusion: Our results suggest that lower CV fitness and exaggerated exercise BP and HR responses in middle-aged adults are associated with smaller brain volume nearly 2 decades later. Promotion of midlife CV fitness may be an important step towards ensuring healthy brain aging.
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>https://n.neurology.org/content/86/14/1313.short?rss=1
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>This study shows that a more severe and chronic lifetime disease course in MDD is associated with reduced volume in brain regions relevant for executive and cognitive functions and emotion regulation in a large sample of patients representing the broad heterogeneity of MDD disease course. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/da.23260>
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>We found that longitudinal measures of cortical atrophy were widely correlated with sleep quality. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4162301/
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>A better diet quality is associated with larger brain tissue volumes.
>
>https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29769374/
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>The diet may have a significant effect on preventing and treating depression for the individual. A diet that protects and promotes depression should consist of vegetables, fruits, fibre, fish, whole grains, legumes and less added sugar, and processed foods. In the public health nurse’s preventative and health-promoting work, support and assistance with changing people’s dietary habits may be effective in promoting depression. From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7084175/
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>Current evidence supports the finding that omega-3 PUFAs with EPA ≥ 60% at a dosage of ≤1 g/d would have beneficial effects on depression Https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-019-0515-5
Sleep is really important, if you aren't sleeping properly you have have a tenfold higher risk of depression,
>People with insomnia , for example, may have a tenfold higher risk of developing depression From https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/depression-and-sleep-understanding-the-connection
Conscious_Egg_6233 t1_jb5z3mu wrote
>We know that depression is linked to exercise, sleep and diet. The actual mechanisms aren't clear but it could be due to BDNF, increased microcondrial health, brain volume, blood flow, anti-inflammatory, etc.
So it might be that depression is just correlated to poor survival rates, where the actual causal factors are sleep, diet and exercise.
This is false. Depression is linked to exercise, sleep, and diet but they are don't cause major depreesion. You can have great sleep, diet, and exercise habits and still develop major depression which increases your inflammatory markers. I actually had a case of major depression that popped up and my inflammatory markers were high even though I was in excellent shape. Major depression can increase inflammation regardless of your habits. Lesser forms of depression can get better with or even treated with working out and better sleep but not major depression.
>“Depression should not be discounted. This study shows the strong link between depression and inflammation, with both related to poor outcomes
https://news.osu.edu/depression-linked-to-deadly-inflammation-in-lung-cancer-patients/
Which lines up with the fact exercise, sleep and diet all act as anti-inflammatory.
platelet-to-lymphocyte ratio is one of the biomarkers for inflammation. Exercise, sleep, and diet don't affect that ratio. Only major depression does. Your assumptions are wrong here.
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470658/#i1523-5998-8-2-106-b3
We have studies showing that exercise is just as if not more effective as medicine and therapy in treating depression
It doesn't mention the type of depression and it only REDUCES not completely treats major depression. It has to be completed treated not just reduced to a lesser degree of depression. Meds are necessary for treatment. Like wise you post a bunch of stuff and are too illeterate to know that it shows that exercise is good but isn't a cure all. Meds are needed in many cases especially for major depression due to chemotherapy. You sound like you're playing doctor. right now.
>University of South Australia researchers are calling for exercise to be a mainstay approach for managing depression
Manages. Not cures or treats.
>In conclusion, PA is effective for improving depression and anxiety across a very wide range of populations.
Improves depression and anxiety, does not cure or treat.
>Sleep, exercise and depression are all linked to brain volume
Linked doesn't mean anything. Poverty is also linked to lack of sleep, depression, and exercise. I'm surprised you haven't pushed hustle culture BS here too.
>Exercise has massive effects on mitochondria, which might be partly a mechanism in relation to depression.
Linked just means it appears in relation to. We don't know the cause or what the true fix is. But the best medical practices is talk therapy alongside medication as needed.
>Sleep is really important, if you aren't sleeping properly you have have a tenfold higher risk of depression,
People with insomnia , for example, may have a tenfold higher risk of developing depression From
The fact you conflate proper sleep with insomnia is stupid. You can't "proper sleep habits" your way out of clinically diagnosed insomnia. It doesn't mean "goes to bed late".
The fact that you would post stuff that doesn't prove your point and yet be too illiterate to understand what you are reading is wild
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InTheEndEntropyWins t1_jb8vpto wrote
>This is false. Depression is linked to exercise, sleep, and diet but they are don't cause major depreesion.
Source?
>You can have great sleep, diet, and exercise habits and still develop major depression which increases your inflammatory markers.
I agree
>Lesser forms of depression can get better with or even treated with working out and better sleep but not major depression.
In your post you keep on referring to different forms of depression.
Major depressive disorders is just the name for basic normal depression. All the other types are worse or specialist types of depression.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/9290-depression
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>platelet-to-lymphocyte ratio is one of the biomarkers for inflammation. Exercise, sleep, and diet don't affect that ratio. Only major depression does. Your assumptions are wrong here.
Seems like exercise does acutely effect the ratio.
>Compared to NLR, far less evidence is available on the PLR in the context of exercise. Of the five studies investigating the impact of acute exercise on the PLR, three showed increased values post-exercise, indicating an inflammatory response
>
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8192383/
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>It doesn't mention the type of depression and it only REDUCES not completely treats major depression.
Again major depression is the normal basic depression everyone is talking about. If it was some other type they would specify.
The current view is nothing "cures" depression. So pretty much every study will just talk about treating it.
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>Treatment vs. cure
>
>When someone is cured from an illness, it means it’s gone forever. Some illnesses can’t be cured—like diabetes. Once a person gets diabetes, they’ll have it for the rest of their life. But even a lifelong illness like diabetes can be treated. People who take their medications regularly and make some lifestyle changes can live long and healthy lives. These medications and lifestyle changes are treatments for diabetes.
>
>Depression is the same way. There’s no cure for depression, but there are lots of effective treatments. People can recover from depression and live long and healthy lives.
>
>https://screening.mhanational.org/content/depression-curable/
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>Meds are needed in many cases especially for major depression due to chemotherapy. You sound like you're playing doctor.
Sure people can use meds. It's like when I cut myself, I might take a painkiller. While it isn't fixing the underlying issue, it does help.
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>The fact that you would post stuff that doesn't prove your point and yet be too illiterate to understand what you are reading is wild
You are the one who thinks that "major" depression is like some super duper serious form of depression, rather than just the medical name for basic clinical depression.
You are the one who doesn't know that every study on depression treatment will just talk about treating it rather than curing it.
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LoquatBear t1_jb78jga wrote
could the inflammation be causing the person to feel depressed, or is it vice versa?
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Haunting-Habit-7848 t1_jb6glrx wrote
so if i get lung cancer be happy about it. got it
Suspicious_Diver4234 t1_jb6rx4k wrote
That's really concerning. Depression can often be overlooked when it comes to physical health, but this emphasizes the importance of considering mental health too.
redditaccount71987 t1_jciii10 wrote
Maybe some day they prescribe quit smoking meds when asked rather than trying to fake psych.
Lokivstheworld t1_jb4yatf wrote
Don't need to be a scientist to figure that one out.
Conscious_Egg_6233 t1_jb5zs45 wrote
Actually you do. Major depression causes your lymphocytes to increase with relation to platelets. Meaning that you're more susceptible to cardiac events and general illness with major depression. The fact that major depression occurs in cancer patients could point to a host of issues. I would expect to see link between cancer spread and major depression.
This is opposed to less severe forms of depression that do not affect your lymphocytes and platelet ratio.
So yes. We do need scientists to figure this out.
Lokivstheworld t1_jb8iztt wrote
I guess that was my mistake for thinking if I already know this, most people do.
No-Sock7425 t1_jb4ys29 wrote
No offence intended but where tf did they find people with lung cancer that aren’t depressed?