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Tanagashi t1_iqn71gg wrote

Long story short - they did an analysis of papers published on the topic, and found that people with double vaccination, or vaccination plus infection (but not single vaccination) had an 19% lower risk of getting long covid, as well as overall lower rate of complications like organ damage. Thus they recommend increasing the vaccination rates.


Parafault t1_iqo0wnm wrote

Aren’t long covid rates like 20% total? So even if you’re vaccinated/boosted you still have a 16% chance of getting long covid? If so that sounds awfully high, and I’m surprised more people aren’t talking about it. 16% of the population having a debilitating and incurable medical condition sounds insane - and it gets even worse if you think about repeat COVID infections potentially increasing the risk. I wonder if that means the entire world will eventually develop long covid via repeat infections over several years?


itsastickup t1_iqoa97w wrote

Depends on how you define it. In the UK's official definition:'s ANY symptom beyond 12 weeks. But peopled being crippled was only at 2% and targeted the same vulnerable people who were liable to die, the old and those with co-morbidities. Again, very very rare for younger healthy people.

My brother has had long-covid for a year because his sense of smell is compromised.


Sure_arlo t1_iqr1um3 wrote

I wish there was a way to get true data. I am a pre op nurse and call/converse with about 20 ppls per day. Anecdotally, about 90% of patients tell me they’ve had covid, most in the last 10 months. I’ve never heard a single person tell me they have lingering symptoms. I believe long Covid exists, 100%, but I’d venture to guess that the rates are quite low.


rubberchain t1_iqonlws wrote

Hey, the science is still new. Things will change as the research accumulates. Look at us 2 years ago. People were straight up dead, unable to breath, crawling outside hospital doors because they were full. Thousands of people died every single day in the beginning, well over 1 million dead in the USA. I'd say 16% dealing with long covid is a bazillion times better..


jlambvo t1_iqpe7fr wrote

I've been curious to find any long Covid studies that focus on measurable, physiological symptoms.

I don't necessarily doubt that it's a real issue, but pretty much all the larger scale studies I've seen on long Covid rely on self-reported symptoms that are fairly vague or general, and don't appear to have high quality (or any) attempt to control for hypervigilance among the convalescent groups.


throwaway477638 t1_iqpzyee wrote

First, we need to clearly separate long covid from post covid or chronic covid more strictly. In reality, almost nobody is really interested in long covid. If we do so, we see that only 5-10 percent of people are really affected long term.

Second, most of these post covid issues are hard to detect as our medicinal expertise is not advanced enough. There are research groups that try reliable immune marker profiling but this only works for some portion of the post covid group. Other people try specific MRIs or PET scans. In general, if we look long enough, we find damage in any of the post covid patients but that is incredibly costly and not a viable long term strategy. But currently there is no single test (and maybe there never will be) that reliably detects post covid. The issue is that we don’t understand the original damaging process at all and even this process might not be unique. We just see a plethora of different symptoms that we cannot really make sense of.


anttirt t1_iqq3zwp wrote

The entire world except for China.


VespiWalsh t1_iqnvp71 wrote

Damn only a 19% reduction in risk from long covid? That is not that impressive. The dream of a post-covid era seems almost unattainable at this point, the N95s are never coming off. I can't even imagine how bad the public will handle transmission reduction measures when an even worse pandemic comes along, like H7N9 if it makes the jump to human to human transmission. Humans are too selfish of a species to survive any major existential threat to civilization or life on this planet, most of them couldn't even wear a mask in the grocery store to protect their communities.


ApizzaApizza t1_iqo7nuj wrote

For double vaccination…

I’ve gotten like 5 vaccinations. I’m curious what the rate would be for someone who’s kept up on all the recommended ones


justgetoffmylawn t1_iqocxtl wrote

Will be interesting to see if additional boosters are helpful and to what degree. Unfortunately since long Covid is sometimes symptoms beyond six months or a year, it obviously takes a long time to collect robust data. We won't know how the bivalent affects long Covid rates until well into 2023 at best.


VespiWalsh t1_iqo7weh wrote

I got 4 and I am scheduling the 5th one next week. I too am also curious how or if being fully boosted would make a difference.


LittleFigureheads t1_iqob3yn wrote

Could I ask what country you're in/got your vaccinations? I only got my fourth one (bivariant strain) a week ago and didn't know a fifth one was already available.


ApizzaApizza t1_iqocqj7 wrote

USA. I’m +1 because I forgot to bring my vaccination card but they gave the shot to me anyway, but I needed to have it on my card for a trip so I got the omnicron boostie twice.


LittleFigureheads t1_iqondom wrote

Thank you! I was all ready to go get another round. Haha. (Note: I did not grow up in the States, but rather in a separate countries where there were national government drives for vaccination, as well as a science kid, so I understand the role of vaccinations against hospitalisation and severity, and advocate for choosing to be vaccinated.)


day7seven t1_iqoti65 wrote

And is it like Russian Roulette where there is the same chance each time so if you get COVID a bunch of times you will most likely eventually get LONG COVID?


tooth_mascarpone t1_iqohudg wrote

>Humans are too selfish of a species

Not human species, some human cultures. Regarding masks, you can see what happens in Japan. You can also see what they are doing about earthquakes, tsunamis and typhoons


VespiWalsh t1_iqoszd8 wrote

I am very familiar with the wonderful masking protocol compliance in East Asian countries, have used Japan as an example of why masks and social distancing work while trying to supress the transmission of respiratory viruses while arguing with idiots.

Is it possible for humans to put aside their selfish natures with extensive cultural conditioning? Most likely yes. Unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that humans are a selfish, short sighted species that are rarely capable of seeing beyond their noses, without extensive cultural conditioning to make them put the collective above the individual. Nurture may trump nature, but it will never be enough to completely elude its grotesque specter.


tooth_mascarpone t1_iqoxugt wrote

>selfish natures

According way back to Freud we can have both selfish and altruistic impulses. "Human nature" is not a well stablished concept. There might exist multiple "human natures". What we now know, scientificaly, is that our personal experiences can exert more influence in our behaviour than previously thought. If there is some common denominator in humans (and we share that with most species) is that we try to adapt. If we have stability and peace, outside and inside, our behaviours tend to move towards helping others. If we have a culture that tells "you must compete with everyone, you must be the most, bigger, better" then we tend to compete.


VespiWalsh t1_iqp17ep wrote

Many of Freud's theories have been disproven, but he might have been right on that one, but I don't think you need to be a scholar to come to that conclusion. Human nature wouldn't be identical for each individual, but would draw from a pool of established traits that make up the essence of what traits a human being can possess. Even if we have the potential for both, selfishness occurs in higher frequency and intensity.

>If we have stability and peace, outside and inside, our behaviours tend to move towards helping others.

The existence of mostly selfish billionaires disproves your point. They have stability and peace, but most of them pillage as much as they can. I've seen more generosity and altruism from those who have little to give.

>If there is some common denominator in humans (and we share that with most species) is that we try to adapt.

Proper adaptation would be dependant on the situation. Selfishness and altruism would be useful in different situation. In a small, subsistence village where everyone knows each other and the consequences for antisocial behavior are greater, altruism would be more valuable. In modern consumption driven society, selfishness will be more valuable.

Unfortunately I don't see any possible way to scientifically test human nature in an accurate manner without the experiment being unethical. So this issue can only be truly debated via philosophical methods.


tooth_mascarpone t1_iqp8c4n wrote

>selfishness occurs in higher frequency and intensity

Maybe because that's an adaptation to current environment. As an example, propaganda is a mechanism to induce colective beliefs of the current state of something, the country, the world, etc. There are lots of data showing that some crucial social agreements that allowed the socio economic boom of the 60's untill the 90's are now outdated by the political decisions to cut economic balancing measures, starting in the 70's. That's one the reasons we believe in scarcity, violence, etc. Because those stats are regressing. You can also as an example easily see the differences between movies and series in the 1980's and 2010's regarding those themes. And the evolution in media consumption. And the advantages for polarized speech in politics in order to preserve power. Etc. This ends up becoming part of the current culture.

>The existence of mostly selfish billionaires disproves your point

I was expecting this to come up. It's not as you said: they do not have stability and peace, not inside. Most of them only have material peace, and it's frequently argued that the need to accumulate wealth is a way to compensate the lack of other things.

>In modern consumption driven society, selfishness will be more valuable.

This is of course very questionable and debatable.

>scientifically test human nature in an accurate manner

Observing babies has been tried. Of course there's lots of limitations there. What we can say is, then, that it is quite "irresponsible" to jump into conclusions regarding what "human nature" is or is not. Maybe we can just keep doing something very human: observe.


VespiWalsh t1_iqpadfd wrote

You make some very solid points, and that we should continue to observe human nature before jumping to any conclusions about it and taking it as absolute, unshakable fact.


Crash0vrRide t1_iqorx88 wrote

You can also see that masks did not prevent covid increases from happening. More masking did not help covid numbers decline


comrade_batman t1_iqmur72 wrote

I had my third Covid jab last Christmas Eve, got Covid for the first time at the end of March this year and started getting symptoms of long-Covid the day after I recovered from the infection. The symptoms got better as time went on, hardly noticed them at one time and then I got Covid again over Jubilee weekend. Recovered again but it aggravated the long-Covid symptoms again and have only started to feel normal again a majority of time in the last several weeks. Some flair ups of the symptoms but nothing as bad as it used to be.

It just feels as though people with long-Covid have been forgotten and ignored and no real work has been done to try and combat it. It’s greatly effected my year since I’ve been in the middle of my MA dissertation, which resulted in me having to get a 6 month extension because of how much it effected me, plus how it effected me day to day in my personal life too.


jacksnsticks05 t1_iqngnk1 wrote

Actually there are plenty of medical scientists trying to sort it out... so no it hasnt been forgotten and ignored.

One point worth mentioning though. Long COVID, per se, is more of the emergence of symptoms after recovery, persistent and NEW symptoms, and that often occurs around 3 months.

Long COVID symptoms (brain fog, fatigue, breathlessness, palpitations, post exertional malaise) that occur at the end of "recovery" are still COVID symptoms. The virus doesnt suddenly get up and walk out of you at the 10th day. Having these symptoms at the end of the acute illness requires lifestyle and exercise modifications as instructed by your Primary Doctor - rest, modification of exercise regimen, etc. (e.g. people are instructed to avoid exercise for 2 weeks, and then start with short walks) Not doing so can lead to Long COVID, or Long COVID can just develop (seems to happen both ways)


Slapbox t1_iqnjjd9 wrote

> Actually there are plenty of medical scientists trying to sort it out... so no it hasnt been forgotten and ignored.

The government funding and messaging is abysmal, so even though people are working on it, crucial actors in fixing this situation are asleep at the wheel.


jacksnsticks05 t1_iqnkyil wrote

The government is by no means the crucial actor in this. This work is being done entirely by Academic Medical Institutions around the world.... the university medical centers and the medical schools around the world.... Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, Stanford, Karolinska Institute, even University of Alabama and the lesser known medical schools. The article in the OP is from Peking University, School of Public Health.

The governments only role in this is registering the clinical trials for official purposes. As far as funding, write to your legislator. The universities have to secure their own funding, and sometimes it does come from the government, and often it doesnt.

Here's the list of 309 ongoing clinical trials that are registered with the US government for regulatory purposes.... not to mention the hundreds of other studies that are being done to try to determine the causes of Long COVID (studies not involving the trial of treatments but the biochemical causes)


cearahn t1_iqo77md wrote

is there any way to tell if you might have long covid symptoms later if you had a mild case and didn't know/didn't test positive for it? but are maybe having symptoms later? (I say this as someone who randomly developed heart palpitations last week, but to my knowledge have never actually had covid...) not looking for a diagnosis online just curious! thanks


jacksnsticks05 t1_iqo8ebl wrote

There are tests to see if you had previous infection, nucleocapsid Ab, or T cell assay... it is unclear how long these test remain positive / useful after infection.

You'd need to go to a doctor that is familiar with Long COVID, and get an evaluation. There are plenty of well known reasons to get these symptoms (particularly palpitations) and these need to be ruled out.

The near-universal feature of Long COVID symptoms is that they have no objective physical finding (similar to fibromyalgia and CFS), and they come in patterns and constellations. These are all syndromes - there are common or well known features, but there are subtle patterns, and associations/connections.

So you'd need to see a doctor that has become familiar with Long COVID... after ruling out the more dangerous or more well-described reasons for palpitations, they would ask about other symptoms that you are aren't thinking about. If the constellation appears... that's what it might be.


cearahn t1_iqoadkz wrote

would those tests distinguish between a covid infection and prior immunization/vaccination?

thank you for the recommendations. I did go to a doctor, they did a lot of testing (EKG, blood work), didn't really find much except for a "boring, normal -ish" arrhythmia. they said I could do a holter monitor if I wanted to but I haven't yet. otherwise generally healthy so it really made me wonder. It is super interesting to me that it is more of a constellation type syndrome vs a diagnosis for long covid. That probably makes it much more challenging to quantify. If I continue having symptoms I will look into seeing a doctor familiar with long covid. Thank you!


jacksnsticks05 t1_iqocoq2 wrote

The nucleocapsid Ab is different from the spike protein Ab, so those will distinguish infection from vaccination. The T cell test is not widely available.... so getting the test isn't likely to convince clinicians one way or another.

palpitations alone, in absence of other symptoms, is probably just palpitations. you'd rule out a more abnormal arrhythmia with a holter, and then carry on with live.

Long COVID as certainly a constellation of symptoms in a syndrome, and it falls into various constellations - neurologic, dysautonomia, chronic fatigue, etc. There is no "test" to diagnose it... similar to fibromyalgia, and several rheumatic diseases...

... such is the nature of medicine. Physicians take a medical history and run confirmatory tests sometimes. 90% of the diagnoses is made in the mind of the physician based on the story you tell, and your physical exam findings

diagnosing Long COVID is really no more challenging than diagnosing rheumatoid arthritis most of the time

(I actually find it odd that most people don't realize that what doctors do is use their mind to make a diagnosis on pattern recognition... (that 5 different kinds of arthritis look wildly different to them)... and they use tests to either narrow, confirm, or rule out)


Crash0vrRide t1_iqos4mm wrote

And is long covid less or more prevalent in unhealthy overweight people with comorbidities?


jacksnsticks05 t1_iqotnvs wrote

Certain types of Long COVID tend to be more prevalent in healthy people.

Otherwise, there is no increase in prevalence among overweight people, but a trend toward athletic people and people who did not, or could not take time off to recover from COVID before going back into an active life or exercise regimen.

The dysautonomia type of long COVID (which encompasses, chest pain, palpitations, shortness of breath, and inability to exercise) tends to be more profound in athletic people who had previously conditioning themselves to have better cardiovascular fitness (and therefore had lower resting heart rates, and less rise of heart rate during exercise).

There is a relatively close association with mental health concerns like depression and anxiety with Long COVID - particularly the neurologic type of Long COVID as well as the Dysautonomia type (dysautonomia being an issue of the autonomic nervous system)

So aside from underlying psychologic comorbidities, it seems to be more prevalent in healthy active individuals.


DrMyAce80 t1_iqmxi7n wrote

What symptoms were you experiencing?


comrade_batman t1_iqn1cga wrote

The first and worse of them was a difficulty reading and concentrating, I would have to concentrate more on reading just one sentence. Best way I can describe it is that usually you could glance at a word, phrase or sentence and get the gist of it. I couldn’t do that and would have to concentrate and actually think about reading rather than it flowing naturally.

I’d write or type something out and afterwards see a bunch of spelling errors I’d written and have to correct them.

That’s got a lot better, and but it was accompanied by slight head pains, almost like a pressure around the forehead. Then after my second infection I started to get fatigue symptoms which meant some days I just didn’t feel like doing anything outside and just stay in.

I still have some but it’s far better than it was and I’m hoping that as long as I don’t get another infection the symptoms will keep weakening until they are just gone one day.


Toastie33 t1_iqok58n wrote

stay strong my friend, I have the same reading and concentration issues but hope it will get better one day and suddenly disappear. But lets not loose hope


Crash0vrRide t1_iqos17a wrote

My entire family has gotten covid no issues. My wife has gotten it twice and none of is have had any issues. Infact covid was a cold nearly for everyone.


Potential_Pool_6025 t1_iqne9hv wrote

Kinda disturbing that while vaccinated cohort faired better, it is not by much.. Infact it is pretty poor impact. Basically 1 in 5 people benefitted and the remainder did not. The good news is the vaccine continues to support significantly better outcomes for those who have contracted COVID and for those who will get it ... We will mostly all get it.


zhulinxian t1_iqnb6kg wrote

We’ve had several studies replicate these same findings now. That’s all well and good, but can we please get some funding for long covid treatment? BC007 trials keep getting delayed and the number of desperate sufferers continues to grow.


somedude1592 t1_iqnfv3c wrote

This was a meta-analysis, so no new research. Their goal was to summarize the results of all the studies you mentioned.


aradil t1_iqov589 wrote

Post-viral syndromes have existed for long before COVID and have been studied by a lot of people.

Similar to other damage that has already been done, there is largely only so much you can do.

Until we figure out a panacea like mercury stem cells.

[edit] Let me be clear, stem cells have a lot of proven applications, but they are not a panacea.


scavenger5 t1_iqnlqld wrote

Some interesting observations:

Age was looked at >60 and <60. I'm more interested in younger cohorts as many studies show low occurrence of long covid amongst the young, especially kids.

It's looking at relative risk. 19% lower relative risk when converted to absolute risk isn't as scary. For example CDC quoted 7.5% of people get long covid. So vaccine may reduce the 7.5% to 6%. (This isnt fully accurate, we would need to look at vaccinated vs unvaccinated)

I want to see more controlled studies on long covid controlled for people with psychological disorders, health issues, and age.

But overall this is just more data showing the benefits of the vaccine.


sprcow t1_iqoirnl wrote

I was having a hard time figuring this out from reading the paper.

Does this relative risk take into account reduced likelihood of infection from being vaccinated in the first place, or is it only demonstrating that, of people who got COVID, vaccinated people were less likely to develop long COVID?


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sesamesnapsinhalf t1_iqo8o09 wrote

My coworker got Covid 3 times, twice before getting vaccinated. She’s 35 but now has a hard time with endurance. Long Covid is scary.


karnyboy t1_iqq8abs wrote

well since its new, we'll never really know the extent of long covid will we now? Not until we've been around this for 20 years.


[deleted] t1_iqpopu0 wrote

I just wear a good mask, 0% chance of getting covid. Masks works, ask Asia.


Spocks-Nephew t1_iqo27ae wrote

I’m sure they “worked great” on “long Covid”


Difficult-Product223 t1_iqnjrpd wrote

What’s the risk of them causing LC? I swear I never got COVID but ended up with LC so what was the cause…three mRNA jabs maybe? It’s practically impossible to get an antibody test to verify if I had asymptomatic COVID but if I didn’t it means Moderna was the culprit. Incredible the lack of scientific curiosity around COVID and LC on possibilities that don’t fit into the right boxes.


Camerongilly t1_iqnl5bx wrote

Your diagnosis might be something else. Plenty of those symptoms can occur with many conditions.


[deleted] t1_iqnrnlm wrote



Camerongilly t1_iqntjp9 wrote

Yeah, I just wouldn't assume it's long covid as the most likely diagnosis without a covid infection.


Difficult-Product223 t1_iqo3csa wrote

I disagree. It has the same symptoms and extreme longevity as LC and does not match any previous illness. No way to prove it though so it’s easy to discount.


gwolfealpha t1_iqnqiyv wrote

I know CVS can do an antibody test. Also I’ve seen that Labcorp can do one without a doctor’s note.


Difficult-Product223 t1_iqns5fj wrote

It turns into an academic exercise. I’ll do it because I’m curious so thanks for the info. Still, there’s no where to go be it positive or negative results.


Confident_Bridge9811 t1_iqnkrny wrote

You could have had a very mild case. Seems to be more common with bad cases, but it still can happen with mild ones.


Difficult-Product223 t1_iqnm627 wrote

Yes, but that’s my point about not being able to get an antibody test to actually know rather than just assuming. Also the timing, possibly coincidence, is suspect…booster and then 2 weeks later, bang LC began.


Confident_Bridge9811 t1_iqoqvoo wrote

You catch viruses at any time, including when you go out to get vaccines. Pharmacy or doctors offices have a lot of sick people coming through. That's why I still wear masks, especially at those type of places.


Difficult-Product223 t1_iqov04l wrote

How many times have you been sick for 10 months with symptoms that match a current pandemic (LS)? Thanks for explaining viruses. My wife is a PhD in biochem and my son is at Harvard doing a PhD in immunology after working in a COVID lab at NIH….but ya, maybe it’s a 10-month cold.


hanakuso t1_iqp0k91 wrote

They’re suggesting you contracted COVID (the actual virus) at the time you got your vaccine, not from the vaccine itself. Why not discuss your theory with your son instead of trying to be snarky on Reddit?


Difficult-Product223 t1_iqp6r5b wrote

After 10 mths of the crappiest health of my life I have become a little curt because this is a common dialogue that most every person with LC has multiple times with Doctors, Friends, Coworkers, and random commenters. However, I cannot point to a test that says LC-positive. My apologies are not sincere but I wish they were because that would mean I have my life back, apologies for that. Here are the 2 theories: 1. Totally unnoticeable case of Covid became LC, or, 2. Never had Covid but immune system did not like the mRNA jabs at all and has gone into overdrive to screw things up long-term. Have not done an antibody test yet, have had many PCR tests, including a negative one (performed poorly) soon after symptoms arose. Had neck surgery in the meantime. Got rid of the headaches and brainfog (mostly) by taking gobs of antihistamine (Allegra) a common LC suggestion. So i'll try the test you mentioned (thanks). If it's negative, it is not at all unreasonable to think the mRNA vaccine has had this horrible inflammation effect. In the beginnings of mRNA technique research this was a big issue, maybe it's been solved for the vast majority but 1% which is millions are not liking the approach of turning your own system into a spike protein production plant. So what's frustrating is that nobody is looking at this stuff. I am not an antivaxer, I'm probably the opposite, I have access to great resources, but it doesn't mean there's zero chance of some harm to some people.


Confident_Bridge9811 t1_iqrqtth wrote

Yes, you CAN have asymptomatic covid and develop long covid after that.

AND it happens to be quite unfortunate that the vaccines are not as good at preventing long covid in the vaccinated than we hoped. I've read it prevents long covid from as little as 15% of the time up to about 50% of the time. Especially waning over time I think?

That's why I'm getting my booster next weekend, the new one. Can't wait for my kids to be allowed to get it, they are in the 5-11 ranges. Hopefully it will only be a few weeks.

My MIL caught it on vacation, and had a very mild case. She developed long covid, and a worsening of her other illnesses. She had 2 doses, but had not gotten around to the booster. My FIL was boosteed, he never tested positive.