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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir3bqv9 wrote

Eating meat is normal. Eating meat at every goddamn meal is not normal. Is this just a western cultural thing? Because most eastern countries have loads of vegetarians and vegans and they are seen as the norm.

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gotchostupidass t1_ir4rj9t wrote

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with eating non-processed meat, especially leaner cuts. What leads to most of the health issues we have today such as obesity is overconsumption of food. There are various types of diets that are perfectly healthy as long as you aren’t consuming over your metabolic rate. Going into a caloric surplus and becoming overweight is where most of our problems are.

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rootmonkey t1_ir50w2i wrote

My father is suffering from colon cancer. I’ve been trying to make changes to my own diet. I’ve traditionally eaten lunch meat daily for many years due to convenience. I cut it out of my diet lately, and could be a coincidence but my bowel irritably has really improved. having his colon removed plus chemo did remove my fathers cancer but the cancer should up elsewhere later. Would be nice to have a cure, but preventing is better.

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IngsocInnerParty t1_ir5flai wrote

> Would be nice to have a cure, but preventing is better.

Make sure to see a gastroenterologist and see if they want you to start yearly colonoscopies. They may also want to test you for Lynch Syndrome.

My mother had colon cancer and Lynch Syndrome. I had genetic testing done and found I have it too, so they want me to get a colonoscopy every year.

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rootmonkey t1_ir5j74y wrote

Thanks for the tip, hope you avoid it. I’ve had one colonoscopy and have another planned this year. My sibiling has chrons.. so something I need to stay on top of. Sadly my father was getting regular colonoscopies but it didn’t catch it in time to avoid removing the colon. Will be nice with blood tests are the standard or supplement the other screenings.

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gotchostupidass t1_ir5j6ec wrote

I’m sorry to hear about your father. I’m glad that he’s still here and that they were able to do something about. If I can suggest any changes to your diet, make sure that you have adequate fiber consumption. The weak association with colon cancer that is found with red meat consumption seems to be negated by adequate fiber consumption in studies.

And of course processed meats like lunch meat have clear association as carcinogens, like lunch meats, bacon, some sausages etc, so if you’re willing to cut them out that’s great! And the fact that you feel better if even better even if it isn’t due to cutting it. Do what feels best for you. If you’re a healthy individual, I wouldn’t be too scared of unprocessed lean cuts of red meat if you tolerate it okay. Always be sure to get your levels checked regularly, I believe every 5 years is what recommended but I try to go in once a year.

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sufjanfan t1_ir5eyi5 wrote

Do you have a good source on that I can read?

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gotchostupidass t1_ir5hg4f wrote

To start, here’s a great article on what causes obesity (overconsumption) : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8450866/

Here is a great study on the major health risks of obesity : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6088226/

When it comes to studies on red meat, association is not very strong on red meat being inherently cancer-causing (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7015455/), and for those who are concerned, adequate fiber consumption seems to cancel out the risk: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4588743/

Processed meats are obviously great to avoid, and you should watch your saturated fat consumption just because it does nothing to help your LDL to HDL cholesterol ratio, but generally eating lean meat (red or not) isn’t going to be a problem for a normal healthy individual. It’s one of the most nutrient dense foods you can get. For someone like me who is trying to gain muscle, it’s an amazing protein source as well. For people who are trying to lose weight, lean cuts of red meat would be greatly assisting as eating nutrient dense foods while in a caloric deficit helps with hunger cues and makes you feel more satiated. To demonize unprocessed lean meat is just flat out wrong.

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sufjanfan t1_ir7o01b wrote

>What leads to most of the health issues we have today such as obesity is overconsumption of food.

I was asking for a source on overconsumption being "most of the health issues we have today". Unless you were just talking about obesity.

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gotchostupidass t1_ir7ss30 wrote

I am referring precisely to obesity, which is caused by overconsumption. Sorry for the lack of clarity there.

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir4w5u4 wrote

Red meat is particularly bad for you, and eating it every day is definitely not healthy. Chicken and fish every day is fine. But not every single meal.

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gotchostupidass t1_ir5jn8k wrote

Lean cuts of unprocessed red meat have weak associations with colon cancer and CVD in studies. Chicken and fish are great of course, but not as nutrient dense as red meat, outside of fish like salmon. As long as you are getting your levels checked on a regular basis (every 5 years recommended), and you tolerate red meat, and you are a healthy individual who doesn’t overconsume calories, you will be okay eating red meat. And also, the weak association with colon cancer seems to be completely negates with adequate fiber consumption.

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Evergreen_76 t1_ir4igs1 wrote

How much vegetables and fresh fruit did people eat during winter in the temperate forests? vegetarianism is for hot climes and modern tech.

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir4jplc wrote

Meat for our ancient ancestors was a treat, not a staple. Nuts, grains, roots and tubers, and carbs.

https://www.calacademy.org/explore-science/early-human-diets#:~:text=Prior%20to%20about%203.5%20million,modern%2Dday%20gorillas%20and%20chimpanzees.

"Prior to about 3.5 million years ago, early humans dined almost exclusively on leaves and fruits from trees, shrubs, and herbs—similar to modern-day gorillas and chimpanzees."

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JohnCavil t1_ir4qh9q wrote

My ancestors were inuit, i'm pretty sure they ate a lot of meat and not many fruits.

People can keep going back further nd further until they can say all our ancestors ate grass because some ancient mammal did so. Modern humans did not exist prior to 3.5 million years ago so who cares what some ancient ape ate. I dont really care what species other than homo sapiens eat.

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir4wges wrote

You're not who I was replying to, but sure. Inuits were a special case because they ate almost every part of the animal to gain nutrients. This includes parts that the average person today would balk at. They certainly didn't eat the prime cuts for every meal.

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Talenduic t1_ir4z2h7 wrote

*the average north American, in Western Europe it was a bit of the opposite we had to learn to stop eating too much offals

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JohnCavil t1_ir589x7 wrote

Again i think when you say things like "the average person today would balk at" you're assuming that average is some american/english person.

Even here in northern europe one of the most common foods for lunch is liver. As in pretty much everyone, from 4 year olds to 90 year olds consume it. It's probably a top 3 common food for lunch. Not to mention China where all kinds of weird parts and organs of the animal are regularly eaten. Africa too.

My point is and was just that when people discuss these sorts of things, they almost only do it from a western, but even more so an American perspective.

What did ancient humans eat? Some ate mostly fish. Some mostly fruits, berries and grains. Some mostly meat. Some a lot of roots and potatoes. Some ate a mix of everything. The inclination to say "oh well red meat is bad" or "well grains are bad" or "no meat is bad" because some group of humans 120,000 ago didnt eat x or y, completely ignores the fact that humans ate what was available, not what was healthy. You can't conclude anything based on ancient diets.

If you lived by the sea you ate fish. if you lived in a rainforest you ate fruits, if you lived on the steppes you ate meat. This has nothing to do with health. I know you weren't claiming that, but i think even discussing what the "average" person ate is completely irrelevant.

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir5m84c wrote

I never said meat was bad. I said eating meat at every meal was bad. Everything in moderation. By the way, the near all meat diet of the Inuit people does take a toll on the body. Here's a few interesting links.

http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1.1814937!/httpFile/file.pdf "Inuit have a similar prevalence of CAD (coronary artery disease) as non-Inuit populations, they have excessive mortality due to cerebrovascular strokes, their overall mortality is twice as high as that of non-Inuit populations, and their life expectancy is approximately 10 years shorter than the Danish population."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23489753

"Young Eskimo adults (20 to 39 years) of both sexes were similar to whites, but after age 40 the Eskimos of both sexes had a deficit of from 10 to 15% relative to white standards." (Note that the word "Eskimo" is used here because this article was written in 1974, before the word was ultimately replaced) https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-abstract/27/9/916/4911797?redirectedFrom=PDF

Due to their habit of eating raw meat, up to 12% over the age of 60 had trichinella. But eating raw meat was crucial to the Inuit, because their main source of vitamin C was raw seal and whale blubber. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20144253/

So maybe the Inuit diet isn't the best example. It worked, sure, but I wouldn't write home about how healthy it was.

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Mindless-Day2007 t1_ir65e48 wrote

High Cvd in Inuit can be because they lived in hut and expose with fire smoke, cold weather (yes, cold weather relate with cvd), lack of exercise in winter and also Inuit has high smokers.

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir674ru wrote

Were they living in huts in the 1970s? If it was caused by cold weather, then the non-Inuit people of the same region would be experiencing it to, thus evening out the numbers. But that wasn't the case.

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Mindless-Day2007 t1_ir6n6ib wrote

Some of them still living in huts right now, 70s? Plenty.

Non Inuit may not living in the huts and inhaled smokes or heavily smokers like Inuit. Again, there is plenty of reasons to get CVD, not only meat, or even worse is meat cause no cvd or little trouble but was being blamed for majority of cvd.

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir6o4z7 wrote

High cholesterol diets have time and time again been linked to heart disease, so I think I'd been hard pressed to believe that a culture that lives almost exclusively off of meat and fats isn't victim to heart disease because of their diet. Smoke may play a part, but the diet certainly doesn't help.

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Mindless-Day2007 t1_ir7ms7u wrote

And also dietary cholesterol has found no to little effect on body cholesterol. While smoking, smoke exposure, cold weathers, stress affect cholesterol. Therefore Inuit diet has little to do with CVD, or even if it does, insignificant part of it.

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir7ui24 wrote

I don't know where you are getting that information from but

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/fats-and-cholesterol/cholesterol/#:~:text=The%20biggest%20influence%20on%20blood,cholesterol%20you%20eat%20from%20food.

"The biggest influence on blood cholesterol level is the mix of fats and carbohydrates in your diet—not the amount of cholesterol you eat from food."

The main contributor to a high cholesterol level is a high fat, low fiber diet . There are different types of fat, some good, some bad. The very worst of the worst are trans fats and saturated fats. Saturated fats are found almost exclusively in animal products, with the odd exception of coconut.

Inuits ate/eat a high fat, low fiber diet almost exclusively. That diet is loaded with saturated fat. While other environmental factors might also elevate the risk of cardiac disease, what they put in their bodies is inarguably the biggest factor.

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Mindless-Day2007 t1_ir82jde wrote

Also > Although it remains important to limit the amount of cholesterol you eat, especially if you have diabetes, for most people dietary cholesterol is not as problematic as once believed.

> The discovery half a century ago that high blood cholesterol levels were strongly associated with an increased risk for heart disease triggered numerous warnings to avoid foods that contain cholesterol, especially eggs and liver. However, scientific studies show a weak relationship between the amount of cholesterol a person consumes and his or her blood cholesterol levels

> For most people, the amount of cholesterol eaten has only a modest impact on the amount of cholesterol circulating in the blood. (24) For some people, though, blood cholesterol levels rise and fall very strongly in relation to the amount of cholesterol eaten. For these “responders,” avoiding cholesterol-rich foods can have a substantial effect on blood cholesterol levels. Unfortunately, at this point there is no way other than by trial and error to identify responders from non-responders to dietary cholesterol.

Also Inuit diet is high in Inuit's wild-caught game are largely monounsaturated and rich in omega-3 fatty acids, aka good fats, yet they still have higher cvd, because mostly they eating raw which higher carbohydrates than regular Western diet.

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir8p4gw wrote

Yes. Cholesterol in food has a mild affect on cholesterol blood levels. However, fat and carbohydrates have a massive effect on blood cholesterol levels. Saturated fats in particular.

Inuit people include raw blubber in their diet; it's their main source of vitamin C. Blubber is mostly fat. Saturated fat.

I don't think I should have to explain this any further. Since you don't seem to understand and your grip on nutritional science is lacking, I won't be responding any further to you. Feel free to research the topic on your own, but I'm not being paid to tutor.

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soztech t1_ir54obl wrote

You can't even compare the physiologie of 3.5 mil years ago with the one we now have...

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Haptoh t1_ir6gzgg wrote

Yeah humans 3.5 millions ago ate vegetarian diet. Except modern humans have been around for 300 thousand years.

Humans 2 billion years ago ate bacteria, maybe you should eat them too.

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ytreh t1_ir4j80d wrote

Maybe these were not very healthy? Maybe they were. It makes no sense base dietery advice on what our ancestors ate.

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commentsandchill t1_ir4tlcr wrote

I think it's a remnant of when people couldn't afford to eat meat in ancient times. Now it's like it makes them rich (until next (r)evolution)

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Danofireleg33 t1_ir8dnss wrote

The concept of eating meat with every meal goes back a long time. Eating meat used to be a status symbol, if you ate lots of meat it meant you could afford it so higher class people ate it and served it to guests whenever they could to show off thier wealth

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TerribleAttitude t1_ir6cmjv wrote

I’d say that at least for Americans, yes, there is a cultural expectation among many groups to eat meat at every meal, and for meat to be the predominant aspect of the meal. A lot of that is regional or generational though, and it’s starting to change.

What other people have said is pertinent though. A lot of eastern countries are tropical, so their habits can’t always be applied to temperate or cold climates. It’s very easy to center your eating habits around fresh produce and rice when you live in a place where those things can be grown year round and are essentially falling off of trees for free. Historically, people in cold climates (including eastern countries) eat a lot more meat, or even base their diet around meat. Even today with modern conveniences, a lot of people in parts of Alaska and Canada just don’t eat fresh vegetables as a daily thing because they can’t grow there and shipping them, even frozen vegetables, there makes them an extremely pricey luxury. And the people living there have been living on meat and fish for as long as they’ve been there. While the idea that people in temperate areas are somehow entitled to meat on a thrice-daily basis is obviously ridiculous and overprivileged, so too is it a privilege to live someplace where eating fresh plant based dishes for every meal is cheap and easy, and to assume everyone has the same access to those things.

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir6exi6 wrote

The Americas, aside from Canada, can hardly be considered a cold climate. There's plenty of farms and growing season in the northern US, and anything south of the border is considered the tropics. People just like to make excuses for their terrible eating habits. Portion sizes have almost doubled in the past few decades, and that includes the meat portion.

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Danofireleg33 t1_ir8dnsx wrote

The concept of eating meat with every meal goes back a long time. Eating meat used to be a status symbol, if you ate lots of meat it meant you could afford it so higher class people ate it and served it to guests whenever they could to show off thier wealth

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir8p9of wrote

Interestingly, the same reason wedding dresses are white. No real reason other than flaunting monetary status.

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Danofireleg33 t1_ir8ph0g wrote

Yep, when you get down to it there are a lot of things in our lives both old and new that boil down to just that

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[deleted] t1_ir4d3pt wrote

[deleted]

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir4fsa3 wrote

Diets with excessively high protein can damage your kidneys, liver, heart, and bones. Anything above 0.8g per kg of body weight is considered too high. So if you weigh 280 pounds, sure. Otherwise, you might wanna cut back. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4045293/#:~:text=Extra%20protein%20is%20not%20used,or%20even%20cancer%20%5B31%5D.

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Ok_Tax7195 t1_ir4hkig wrote

Even if you're routinely working out and lifting? I'm basically just going off of this https://thefitness.wiki/muscle-building-101/

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's not uncommon for power lifters to have meat with pretty much every meal. I don't only eat protein, I also eat plenty of vegetables, lentils, and brown rice.

Edit: I also drink quite a bit of water, at least a gallon a day.

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Fantastic_Beans t1_ir4ij2u wrote

Yes. It's been a health problem a lot of body builders face. I believe the effect on the kidneys is particularly bad. Processing all that extra protein overworks the kidneys and can lead to scarring and eventually decline. Drinking tons of water can mitigate the harm, however.

But that's just the effect on the kidneys. The liver damage and effect on the heart due to high cholesterol intake can't be mitigated with extra water.

Although, the high cholesterol can be countered by using vegan protein supplements instead of whey or animal based.

Still, intentionally overdosing on protein had it's risks.

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ResilientBiscuit t1_ir4evfp wrote

I would imagine there is an argument to be made that this sort of behavior is unhealthy and might lead to a shorter lifespan on average.

I know there are studies that look simply at body size regardless of things like BMI and simply being bigger (e.g. taller without being fat) is correlated with higher rates of cancer because you simply have more cells.

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Corrupted_G_nome t1_ir3fccg wrote

Its a western thing. Unfortunately sometimes other cultures immitate it and the results are becomming wide spread.

The heathiest people eat meat occasionally amd on holidays (blue zones! They do light but regular labor and don't have access to highways. Their economies are slow and the folks who live lingest are women taking care of many grandkids.

Keep busy and keep communities close and do everything but in moderation. Slow down and relax and you may just live forever.

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DigitalSteven1 t1_ir41v1k wrote

>The heathiest people eat meat occasionally amd on holidays

Got a source for this out of the ass statistic that is actually worth reading?

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healthmadesimple t1_ir4a215 wrote

Not OP, but I read Blue Zones which had to do with centireans and longevity. There were some examples but keep in mind there are so many other reasons too like exercise and exceptions to the rules.

If you look at countries that have the best health there is no indicators that they are on plant based diets.

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HungerMadra t1_ir4apyr wrote

Also I read an interesting observation that all the blue zones have universal Healthcare that focus on preventative care. While diet may be important, so is making sure everyone gets regular doctor visits.

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healthmadesimple t1_ir4d0r9 wrote

Excercise, great social health and community, and loweric caloric intake.

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Corrupted_G_nome t1_ir55mnd wrote

Sure the US department of health. The Heart and Stroke foundation. The new Canadian food guide. The WHO recommends it too.

So its common knowledge and generally accepted and provable via science. The reason is simple, trans fats and salts. People simply eat far too much and get sick.

Blue zones were discovered through study so that is its own datum.

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healthmadesimple t1_ir6dmdj wrote

Isn’t almost trans fat consumption from hydrogenated vegetable oils and some margarines which are plant based and not meat based?

Doesn’t ruminant trans fats (from dairy) have less health risk than trans fats from hydrogenated vegetable oil and margarine?

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Corrupted_G_nome t1_ir6feif wrote

Nope, if it returns to solid at room temperature its semi solid inside you and can lead to health issues over a long term. Trans fats do resolidify.

People seem to think animals have some magical quality that makes them different. The cow got its fats (and proteins) from plants. Its made of the same stuff as you or I and we basically synthesize the same nutrients. Other than insoluble fiber that ruminants have a yeast ally to break down your building blocks and its building nlocks are made of the same stuff.

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healthmadesimple t1_ir6jtes wrote

The reason why vegetable trans fat is called “artificial trans fat” is because it’s not naturally occurring in plants

Artificial trans fats (or trans fatty acids) are created in an industrial process that adds hydrogen to liquid vegetable oils to make them more solid.

You may be right, functionally similar to natural ruminant trans fat

Except that foods containing ruminant trans fat has small amount while processed foods containing partially hydrogenated vegetable oils has a lot more.

Tl;dr: most of the trans fat consumption in the US is from plants not from meat due to high consumption of highly processed foods.

The reason? Crops like soy, corn and canola are highly subsidized and are used in a lot of food processing

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Corrupted_G_nome t1_ir6nvuk wrote

Yeah its mostly processed foods. That McD's apple.pie has something like 2000x the daily recommended intake. Its super gross XD

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musexistential t1_ir4m5lv wrote

One of the blue zones is known for veganism. What studies have shown that occasional meat is superior to a no meat healthy whole food diet?

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Corrupted_G_nome t1_ir55xkn wrote

Blue zones is referring to a study.

Its recommended by many countries health associations including the US, Canada and the WHO. Both government and NGO seem to come to the same findings. Limited meat diets are better than high in meat diets. Im not sure the same rigor goes into studying vegan or vegetarian diets.

I thibk just less fat and less salt typically found in cheap meat is bad for the heart.

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gotchostupidass t1_ir4roic wrote

Correlation ≠ causation. You can consume meat 3 times a day and be a perfectly healthy individual like myself who lifts weights, runs, etc. Overconsumption of food is what leads to obesity, which ultimately leads to CVD if something else doesn’t get you first.

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Corrupted_G_nome t1_ir567wd wrote

Thats not what the data shows. Fitness is not equal to health, one cannot see clogging arteries or excess fat on the heart.

Obviously being active and working out is healthy.

One can also smoke a pack of cigs a day and drink whisky and never work out and be healthy for decades. Observation is not data. Correlation can be positively correlated otherwise thats just whataboutism one could say for anything. But is gravity really due to mass? Correlation is not causality. Like please, thats a bad faith argument.

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gotchostupidass t1_ir5hxaz wrote

My LDL to HDL ratio and my triglycerides are completely okay in my results. Of course it’s important to regularly test yourself and see how you respond to consumption. I am a healthy individual and I don’t encounter issues with regular red meat consumption.

Of course someone can smoke regularly and be lucky to be healthy in the long run but of course the risk of all sorts of issues are incredibly high, and that level of risk is not comparable to the weak associations found in observational studies on red meat.

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