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1

protoopus t1_iuq3phd wrote

something else to be depressed about.

237

BostonUniStudent t1_iuq3tbu wrote

Do they know if a specific antidepressant is causing or exacerbating this? To get this particular magnetic treatment, you generally are required or encouraged to go through several of the medication regimens. And for an extended period of time.

As their primary function is neurotransmitter inhibitory, it's sensible to ask the question.

Here's a longer article on point:

"typically, unipolar depression that do not respond effectively after two trials of antidepressant monotherapy in adequate dosage and durations (at least 8 weeks, may be 12 weeks in some cases) and often do not respond satisfactorily to numerous sequential treatment regimens” [7].

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4609854/

Edit:

Most patients on TMS and ketamine have tried standard first-line antidepressants. Medical boards and insurance companies generally require it, as others have pointed out. But you can apparently privately pay for it in some states. Although the price is prohibitive.

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Kipzi t1_iuq52ta wrote

Gives a secondary meaning to ignorance is bliss.

4

BostonUniStudent t1_iuq6hir wrote

Replying to caffeinehell (#424,086)

The article talks about their medication history. Do you have a source to back up your claim here? I've only seen it as a requirement to have been on antidepressants unsuccessfully.

Here's a longer article on point:

>"typically, unipolar depression that do not respond effectively after two trials of antidepressant monotherapy in adequate dosage and durations (at least 8 weeks, may be 12 weeks in some cases) and often do not respond satisfactorily to numerous sequential treatment regimens” [7].

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4609854/

This is consistent with what I've heard from practitioners. And it is a strict requirement. There are some fairly desperate people that come to their office asking if there's a way around it. I've never heard them say that they could private pay. But I would be open to seeing an alternative source.

In any event, practically everybody in this experiment will have been on antidepressants. Even if it is only because of an insurance requirement.

4

G_W_Atlas t1_iuq7uw6 wrote

Replying to BostonUniStudent (#424,184)

If you're willing to pay for it you can likely get it. Many situations could happen, you can't take medication, you refuse to take a pill everyday, I suppose you could also lie. Mental health treatment definitely has a business component, so if you have the money you can get the treatment. Like testosterone, technically you should have low levels, but many clinics are pretty liberal in allowing access.

7

[deleted] t1_iuq82a6 wrote

Well I mean makes sense considering those areas aren’t being used normally. What would be more interesting is whether the volume is restored in patients that are no longer depressed.

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N013 t1_iuqa8sr wrote

reduced brain volume? Imma tell people I'm on a weight loss diet

26

InTheEndEntropyWins t1_iuqb9q0 wrote

So we have decent evidence that exercise, diet and sleep can help prevent and treat depression. Some of that evidence is fairly strong causal evidence.

It also turns out that exercise, diet and sleep are correlated with brain volume. And we have good reason to think that's causal as well.

This just seems to support the idea that for a healthy brain you need to exercise, sleep and have a good diet. If you don't then there will be negative changes in the brain volume and you will get increase chances of mental disorders such as depression.

While we don't have enough evidence to completely demonstrate the causal link, I think this hypothesis is much better supported than alternatives such as smaller brain volumes being inherent and that's what causes people to not exercise and makes them depressed.

​

>Conclusion: Our results suggest that lower CV fitness and exaggerated exercise BP and HR responses in middle-aged adults are associated with smaller brain volume nearly 2 decades later. Promotion of midlife CV fitness may be an important step towards ensuring healthy brain aging.
>
>https://n.neurology.org/content/86/14/1313.short?rss=1

​

>We found that longitudinal measures of cortical atrophy were widely correlated with sleep quality.

​

>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4162301/
>
>A better diet quality is associated with larger brain tissue volumes.
>
>https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29769374/

​

>The diet may have a significant effect on preventing and treating depression for the individual. A diet that protects and promotes depression should consist of vegetables, fruits, fibre, fish, whole grains, legumes and less added sugar, and processed foods. In the public health nurse’s preventative and health-promoting work, support and assistance with changing people’s dietary habits may be effective in promoting depression. From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7084175/
>
>Current evidence supports the finding that omega-3 PUFAs with EPA ≥ 60% at a dosage of ≤1 g/d would have beneficial effects on depression Https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-019-0515-5

Sleep is really important, if you aren't sleeping properly you have have a tenfold higher risk of depression,

>People with insomnia , for example, may have a tenfold higher risk of developing depression From https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/depression-and-sleep-understanding-the-connection

Finally studies show that exercise is just as effective as medicine.

>Four trials (n = 300) compared exercise with pharmacological treatment and found no significant difference (SMD -0.11, -0.34, 0.12). From https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24026850/

8

a_phantom_limb t1_iuqgvgf wrote

My brain is in trouble for so many different reasons. I'm basically screwed.

6

ProfessionalHuman260 t1_iuqqmdm wrote

It has already been established that long term secretion of cortisol (both the cause and symptom of depression) will decrease the volume of the brain. For example, international flight attendants that don't get proper time off over a two week period will show a reduction in their hypothalamus volume. -- (if remember correctly, the volume loss is not associated with becoming dumber, but maybe just short term working memory decrease from stress)

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boxhacker t1_iuqquhw wrote

Bud does getting rid of depression allow the brain to recover or is it fixed at reduced mass?

3

Papancasudani t1_iuqvprx wrote

A lot of people posting here don't seem to realize that this study can't tell us whether depression causes the brain atrophy, or whether the brain atrophy causes the depression, or both, or whether there is some other cause(s) that underly both. All of those are plausible scenarios.

So if you're worrying that being depressed is damaging your brain, it's not necessarily so. But rather than worrying over something that you have no control over (which will feed back into the depression), work on the known factors that are within your control: medications (SSRIs, ketamine, etc.), psychotherapy (of which there are many kinds available), diet, exercise, a meditation course, engaging in activities that are meaningful to you, psychedelics, etc. The more things you do, the more the odds will be stacked in your favor.

17

hoch_ t1_iuqxq1x wrote

Replying to caffeinehell (#424,086)

Sidebar : I will vouch for ketamine or more specifically methoxetamine (MXE) treatment (synthetic ketamine). I've seen two people seemingly erase bipolar depression with MXE. Clearly there is something happening there.

I would trust MXE more than ketamine because it can't result in total dissociation (K-hole) and still leaves one present and aware of time and surroundings.

EDIT: not saying K/M-hole is a medical treatment that anyone would receive. Just saying that one is different and potentially more useful than the other

8

pokey1984 t1_iuqyy98 wrote

Replying to eldenrim (#424,910)

>can damage from poor sleep be undone?

In time, yes, absolutely. Brain damage from something like poor sleep can be cumulative. But getting into a healthy sleep pattern allows the body to heal and stops further damage. In time, even if the damaged brain stays that way, your brain learns to work around the damaged bits, like with stroke victims. And since the damage is (relatively) minor, people can "recover" from that kind of damage much more readily than, say, stroke or accident damage.

With proper diet and rehabilitation, other damage from poor sleep is also reversed in time in most people. Weakened bones, weakened immune system, skin damage... all of that can heal with proper care.

5

Chronotaru t1_iur6mlb wrote

Okay, and did they filter for medication effects? No? Oh, you mean just like every other study of this type you can't tell if it was long term consumption of psychiatric drugs that did it.

8

Bi_Ass-d t1_iur7gzb wrote

So that's why I hear sloshing at the back of my head when I walk!

6

BattleMedley92 t1_iurhn6q wrote

Has it been proven that shrooms promote neurogenesis?

3

MastermindX t1_iurjnt2 wrote

That's not going to help me feel better.

4

pennylane131913 t1_iurvlw4 wrote

Replying to hoch_ (#425,491)

I was in the one of the first clinicals trial for ketamine in the South; it legitimately saved my life from severe depression.

I would love to keep occasionally using it as a treatment when needed (I still have moderate depression and anorexia) but it’s way too cost prohibitive and my insurance sucks.

I can say with my full confidence no experienced professional would ever give you so much K to put you anywhere near a K-hole.

2

hoch_ t1_iurzcj0 wrote

Replying to pennylane131913 (#427,658)

I fully agree and understand your last point. Just sharing experience. I still believe small doses of MXE have the possibility of being more effective that K. But MXE being a designer drug, it is near impossible to study

2

Xennon54 t1_ius6sho wrote

Replying to [deleted] (#424,252)

Also related to the last part, how many people actually get cured from long-lasting depression? And if its even possible to get permanently cured after a while?

18

Sir-Kevly t1_iusawt9 wrote

Yay, another article telling me that my depression is going to cause long-term complications.

3

TheHelpfulRabbit t1_iusfy9i wrote

Replying to 26Kermy (#427,213)

I was severely depressed as a young teen until early adulthood, but around 24 I was able to move out and my mental health improved dramatically. My GPA in high school/college was about 2.8, whereas my GPA in grad school that I started at 28 was 3.6.

I really think the depression and constant stress due to my abusive upbringing was making me dumber.

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Corrven t1_iuskqzv wrote

Since I barely learned anything in school it makes sense my brain was shrinking the whole time replays of my suicide ran through my head over and over all day.

1

Life-at-the-gym t1_iut91ct wrote

I know, my IQ was 125 as a kid then slowly dropped to the 105 it is now.

1

Caring_Cactus t1_iutkcsi wrote

Replying to protoopus (#424,042)

Engage the brain more! Start small and make more connections. With time building those right connections we'll be able to do more on top of those we've already made. The brain is very plastic, there's hope

17

[deleted] t1_iutvafh wrote

Replying to TheHelpfulRabbit (#428,886)

your brain was exerting more energy in “fight or flight” mode, even if there was not a pressing issue 100% of the time. your ‘monkey brain’ as i usually call it (or lizard brain, yk what i mean), reacts without your consent and is in a state of hyper-vigilance constantly. it takes much more energy to do simple tasks and to learn new things, and we’ve only got so much mental stamina to exert in a day. you weren’t “dumber”, you were quite literally focused on other things that your ‘monkey brain’ decided were essential for your to live another day

source: was trauma therapist

9

artistsays t1_iutwc8b wrote

Replying to [deleted] (#431,300)

Thank you. Sometimes I cry thinking about choices I made, like how was I so dumb and cruel to myself with choices I made. I think my dad knocking my sister around and my mom growing up impacted me more than the just the few times he gave me black eyes. I hurt myself so bad. I wish I called police on him when I was young, I was worried about him losing his job and what would we do then?

5

ProfessionalHuman260 t1_iuu74pf wrote

Replying to DooDooSlinger (#430,549)

Cortisol is established as a factor in brain volume. -- By "cause and symptom" I was paraphrasing it's permissive, suppressive, stimulatory, and preparative actions in association with the stress response (see Sapolsky, 2000). Cortisol has strong and well known association the acute and severe Major Depressive Disorder. While cortisol hypersecretion does not sufficiently explain the nature of depression, it is a contributing cause that continues to have maladaptive feedback, potentiate nueral pathways, and impair corticosteroid receptors throughout the depression furthering the severity.

1

unchained43 t1_iuu884a wrote

It seems everything is small in my life

1

TheJunklest t1_iuuclun wrote

Well this is a load off of my eating anxiety.

1