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croninsiglos t1_ixqk9x4 wrote

I don’t like that they are using the term “exposed to alcohol”

These people drink alcohol, likely for a reason. I wouldn’t necessarily blame the alcohol for the postpartum depression.


Banea-Vaedr t1_ixqlf89 wrote

"People with depression more likely to be depressed" doesn't have the same ring to it


zutonofgoth t1_ixsfsmk wrote

What about "People with depression more likely to drink alcohol"?


seamustheseagull t1_ixqxr8x wrote

It's weird. Is it a translation issue?

I assumed they used the word "exposed" specifically to avoid confusion with consumption - e.g. to include women who spent a lot of time socialising with drinkers during their pregnancy.

But no, they mean "women who consumed alcohol", not "women who were exposed to alcohol". That means something different.


croninsiglos t1_ixqzpn0 wrote

When talking about pregnant women people typically use “exposed” when referring to the child which wouldn’t make sense in that context.


delk82 t1_ixrthlz wrote

Referring to the what?


croninsiglos t1_ixs8qqj wrote

Studies referring to fetal exposure to alcohol.


delk82 t1_ixsvhtq wrote

Ah there it is. Dehumanize the baby.


annoying-throwaway t1_ixsza3p wrote

All mammals have a fetal development stage. What are you on about?


delk82 t1_ixt0ela wrote

They said child originally when referring to a child in the womb. Revealing the subconscious slip that shows that we all know on some level that unborn babies are in fact babies. Then they changed it to “fetus” when I called it out.


Just_thefacts_jack t1_ixtjk0k wrote

First of all this conversation has nothing to do with reproductive rights so please stop.

Second of all, people who believe in reproductive rights for women don't deny that fetuses will eventually develop into babies/children. Using the word fetus is not a strategic choice meant to dehumanize, it's scientific terminology meant to differentiate The stages of development between egg, embryo, fetus, and baby.

You're creating a ridiculous straw man and you look foolish doing it.


LookImBehindYou t1_ixv2zd5 wrote

The difference between a baby and a fetus is one of location/environment, not development. People tend to think of them as different stages with fetus coming first and baby following it (which, to be fair, is how it usually works), yet one woman can have a fetus that is actually older than a baby.

Lastly, depending on how adventurous the doctor is and how open to new experiences the mother is, you can even have a fetus with no rights who becomes a baby and inherits the rights of a person in that jurisdiction, who then turns back into a fetus who would lose their rights in some jurisdictions while retaining them in others.


delk82 t1_ixtmoaq wrote

Do I look foolish or do you just disagree with me?


delk82 t1_ixtncum wrote

“Reproductive rights”, another manipulation of words to make it sound better than what it is.


Cyphierre t1_ixt2213 wrote

> we all know on some level that unborn babies are in fact babies.

Huh? If you had a fetus in your arms would you be unsure whether it was actually a baby instead?


delk82 t1_ixt5eg6 wrote

No need to keep playing dumb


arxaquila t1_ixrttx8 wrote

An excess of PC. Someone should do a metadata analysis of effects of over abundance of PC on stress.


nanny2359 t1_ixqldkr wrote

The studies aren't limited to people who consume excessive amounts of alcohol. It's any amount, which indicates the issue is alcohol not alcohol abuse.


croninsiglos t1_ixqq9ta wrote

They do include those that drink socially, nothing to do with excess, and those individuals then lack those same social lives after giving birth (for obvious reasons).

I guess the point is that there are tons of external factors at play and this is only showing a correlation but not causation.


darkswanjewelry t1_ixqu6xg wrote

Or there could be different explanations for different sub-cohorts. People predisposed to depressive symptoms might also be in a group of those that rely on moderate drinking for emotional regulation, AND a possibly separate group of people may have a kind of extraverted social life where social drinking is commonplace, and thus after birth suffer a significant lifestyle change which may trigger depressive simptomatology.

I'd hazard a guess it's easier to adapt to the "4th trimester" if one is a settled homebody vs if one is a party-hard person. The party-hard person may also experience dwindling of their support network because their old social circle is less baby-friendly, etc.

Like this is just an expected cluster of co-occuring phenomena with likely catch-22 mechanisms involved; of course all of this correlates.

It also most likely does not mean "ditch all the alcohol during pregnancy, keep behaving the same otherwise, and you're significantly reducing your chances of post-partum depression", which would be the meat of it if it did, but.

These papers always pretend like they're saying something more useful or meaningful than they are. There's no real harm reduction plan or initiative you could make off of this finding that's not already covered by common sense and/or FASD initiatives.


nanny2359 t1_ixqqtaz wrote

It's still a very valid point. As someone who's more likely to develop PPD, this is a strong enough correlation for me to avoid alcohol during pregnancy further than is safe for the fetus.


arxaquila t1_ixrv4px wrote

Don’t get what you’re saying. Is there a doublespeak thesaurus you can refer me too. I thought since I was at the 99th percentile of college grads in terms of verbals that I could gather what you meant but instead find myself struggling. Maybe, not being in the social sciences industry is a handicap I can’t overcome but if it meant I spoke or wrote like that no thank you.


Punawild t1_ixsjnc6 wrote

Here I was all ready to read about how Jack Daniels goes about exposing himself to strange women minding their own business.


subzero112001 t1_ixt4z7d wrote

“These people drink alcohol, likely for a reason”

Uh, they drink alcohol for the same reason everyone else’s drinks it. Cause it’s a drug.


Globulart t1_ixu3czx wrote

But not many pregnant people drink it, and those that do will frequently have other issues which is why they are still drinking despite all the evidence showing how bad an idea it is.


subzero112001 t1_ixu4gop wrote

You’re implying that a person who knowingly chooses to do something bad for themselves or a significant other indicates some kind of mental illness.

That claim would also imply that people who smoke have mental issues.


Globulart t1_ixu4mpj wrote

No not at all, I'm implying that if you drink whilst pregnant there's likely to be a reason because it's so well known that it's a bad idea.

Might be mental illness, might be depression, might be addiction, might be a coping strategy, might be simple negligence, lots of possible reasons.


kannolli t1_ixqsx3h wrote

Based off of Chinese data where the public health messaging about the dangers of alcohol when pregnant is not very good. So your US reasoning does not fully apply. But you are right that it only looks to the correlation not all possible variables.


shipsAreWeird123 t1_ixtb2s7 wrote

The calculation that they did, to get the odds ratios, the alcohol is the exposure. It's just an association, not demonstrated cause and effect.


pamplemouss t1_ixs6o2p wrote

I mean, we know alcohol is a depressant. Like literally a CNS depressant. Which in turn can cause or worsen depression or depressed mood. I enjoy the occasional drink, I am in no way a teetotaler, but alcohol is really terrible for you.


kpidhayny t1_ixtgm2k wrote

Well it’s a “meta analysis” so… yknow, I hate ER that means.


jamkoch t1_ixr8hhy wrote

So women who have depression are more likely to also have depression after they give birth?


Lambamham t1_ixqsvk2 wrote

A lot of people (even those that wouldn’t consider themselves alcoholics) use alcohol as an antidepressant, which can make it harder to say no. Someone that’s drinking during pregnancy (even a single glass of wine) seems like there is a high chance they’d fall into this category. Id imagine the depression might catch up with them once they have their kid and aren’t in as many “drinking” situations.


unlovelyladybartleby t1_ixr4ofn wrote

I've cared for infants with FASD and it can be more exhausting and stressful than caring for an infant without FASD. Legitimately wondering if this could be a contributor to the increase in post partum depression


avocado_whore t1_ixsxfup wrote

You need to drink a lot of alcohol for fetal alcohol syndrome to develop.


Stats_n_PoliSci t1_ixtf16q wrote

Usually. A glass per week has not yet been shown to be correlated with fas. But one serving per day has at least some anecdotal evidence linking it with fas. Whether one serving per day sounds like a lot may depend on the person.


iamnuts_ t1_ixrzp3b wrote

So,according to the title, I guess I should stop splashing isopropyl in my pregnant wife’s face to wake her up in the morning?


zoiddirk t1_ixs0ubm wrote

"exposed" to alcohol? I hate how all language now is being changed to eliminate responsibility from those perceived as vulnerable.


dslpharmer t1_ixsn8q4 wrote

Interestingly, in the abstract , the intro, discussion and conclusion say consumed. As does the title.

Results used the accepted term for epidemiology studies. Exposed


dumblebeez t1_ixs8jkv wrote

They use the term "exposed" because that is how scientists refer to environmental contributions to disease. Alcohol is an "environmental exposure" for PDD.


zoiddirk t1_ixsi6v4 wrote

Additionally, exposure is commonly used as an involuntary act. Exposure to pollution, exposure to led paint, exposure to asbestos.

This is clearly written to not offend people.


zoiddirk t1_ixshyto wrote

Consumption is a perfectly acceptable scientific term.


HeKnee t1_ixs76wb wrote

She didnt get drunk, she was exposed to alcohol!


Healthy-Upstairs-286 t1_ixr15pm wrote

Alcohol causes depression. It’s well known.


vanderness t1_iy2uivs wrote

It can cause it, but it's not 100%. Depressants make your nervous system "depressed" (less active or inhibited), but they don't give you depression or even necessarily make you feel depressed inherently.


King_Julien__ t1_ixryw3r wrote

Alcohol is a central nervous system depressant and has been linked to depression unrelated to postpartum.

It's not surprising that the negative effects of alcohol use on the production of happiness hormones would be especially destabilizing on women whose hormonal balance is completely out of whack anyway and who are grappling with a new identity and sleep deprivation.

Postpartum blues has brought me to my knees, I can't imagine having to deal with the effects of substance that interferes with my brain's ability to create enough serotonin on top of that.


Booomerz t1_ixt0n69 wrote

You mean who consume alcohol?


tripodal t1_ixt2njt wrote

But are they depressed because they drink or are they drinking because they are depressed.


vanderness t1_iy2u7ey wrote

I'm pretty sure postpartum depression is different from normal depression in a few ways. The major difference is that postpartum depression happens after giving birth (POST partum) or specifically while pregnant (called peripartum depression). In essence, even if they were depressed before it gets worse during/after pregnancy,


DigitalSteven1 t1_ixtgxje wrote

"Depressant causes depression" thank you science.


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Banana-sandwich t1_ixs52i0 wrote

I can't view the full text. Obviously a big sample size. Did they break it down into actual units of alcohol consumed and how that impacted proportionally?


curds-and-whey-HEY t1_ixt8j3l wrote

So, a co-ocurrence of two factors does not indicate one factor caused the other. The possibility remains that 1. either one of the factors caused the other, 2. Neither factor caused the other, or 3. The association observed between the factors is purely a coincidence. For this reason, this is a meaningless post.


Balthasar_Loscha t1_iy2dtea wrote

>post-partum depression also associated with lowered DHA/EPA, and lowered ferritin, implicating moderate to severe iron deficiency.


Bigglestakesthecase t1_ixs7fki wrote

More relevant is the damage to the brain of the child whose mother drinks alcohol during pregnancy. Depression can be treated, FASD cannot.


King-SAMO t1_ixs86nj wrote

are they developing PPD or are they reacting to the reality of having to raise and FASD kid?


tmwagner77 t1_ixsa2rz wrote

huh, so you are saying whole generations of women who drank and smoked the whole pregnancy had it? Its only the last gen or two that have jumped on this whole dont drink kick..and ppl actually listened.


iNeedPhotos t1_ixt26jo wrote

Is that because they feel guilty over making their kid even dumber?


Spikeandjet t1_ixtiocy wrote

If someone drinks even while pregnant they are addicted. People who are addicted to alcohol are deppressed simple as that.


arxaquila t1_ixs6fqh wrote

Let me be totally frank and forthright about the application of very powerful statistical programs to large and varied data sets. It can lead to very misleading interpretations. My own experiences with large discrete data sets that merged human demographics, social characteristics and individual purchase data began well before the era of Facebook and Google. The growth of these companies was founded on the explosion of personally input data but the early antecedents of these companies were compilers like RL Polk and Metromail who took phone book lists, drivers license files and a household census conducted on a door to door basis by Polk. I founded a company in the 80's that was a licensee of all of the Polk data and merged it with individual financial services info, insurance data and shopping data across a spectrum of retail/grocery clients. We built more complex consumer models by applying personality-purchase data clusters to detailed consumer survey data collected through both cross sectional as well as time series panels by reputable survey firms. Aside from the modeled data all this was discrete data meaning that it was tied to individuals by name and address. We developed "fuzzy logic" software to identify matches that allowed many disparate sources of information to flow to a centralized database. The software we used at that time for "data mining" included SPSS advanced modules, CART and some homegrown cross-tabulation systems. Shopper data was collected at the cash register by a variety of approaches. All of this was done when Mark Zuckerberg was still in grade school. Obviously, software programs have become more sophisticated as well as powerful but the limiting factor has always been the ability of the human mind to construct and test hypotheses of causality. At that time there were many programs that pointed to correlations but to this day I am not aware of software programs that can automatically identify causal relations between various factors. Don't get me wrong, the powerful descriptors inferred through applying personality typologies like "the Big Five" to voter registration rolls were weaponized by Russian scientists both for use internally to cement Putin's hold on power in Russia as well as to feed Trump's political campaign with important and often critical insights into what hot buttons to press while on his presidential campaign in 2016. What I am certain of though is that most current investigators employing these more powerful tools today are not any smarter than we were 30 years ago and face the same struggles to separate out factors that imply causality from mere correlation. Witness the never-ending stream of new research postings on Reddit. So I take many if not most of these with a grain of salt and occasionally earn the ire of other posters for my skeptical remarks.

Thanks for you patience if you read this overly long post.


girnigoe t1_ixqyxm5 wrote

because of the alcohol or because of the judgement though?


EvilGypsyQueen t1_ixs7fmm wrote

Great, now they will ban all women of childbearing age from buying and using alcohol


DutchRoyce t1_ixs48c4 wrote

So irrisplnsible to be drinking alcohol anyway. Besides the post partum depression, it's very bad for the development of the baby...


BeastlyHans t1_ixra9yl wrote

At this point we keep calling it soccer just to piss everyone off.