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irrelevantastic t1_ivavs0x wrote

I can see this is going to be very controversial, however, it is the elusive obvious. Fluoride isn't necessary if you avoid foods that promote bacterial adherence and the resultant damage to the enamel. This is something I have observed also in dogs and cats fed kibble vs those fed a BARF diet. However, if you eat a high-carb diet especially flour products etc that promote the development of bacterial biofilm, fluoride toothpaste at least is absolutely necessary to prevent caries.


JohnFByers t1_ivaya74 wrote

In those animals, which diet promoted carries?


irrelevantastic t1_ivbcvxl wrote

starches in kibble enhance oral biofilm production and increases caries risk - i know this as a long time dog owner that switched 20 yrs ago to a BARF diet; it seems obvious, but this is just anecdotal


Meatrition OP t1_ivb1wl8 wrote

The high-carb diet. BARF is a raw animal foods diet.


mermansushi t1_ivbyefj wrote

Who thought it was a good idea to call it the BARF diet?


Meatrition OP t1_ivc8oxo wrote

The vet that wrote books and studies about it.


RatherBeATree t1_ivdz1jl wrote

It may be gross but it's highly memorable! Biologically Appropriate Raw Food.


B0risTheManskinner t1_ivb4if5 wrote

Can I get a TLDR for what foods promote bacterial adherance??


irrelevantastic t1_ivbb1vc wrote

Flour products and sticky carb-rich foods that stick to the teeth result in increased biofilm production, and the resultant shift in pH from bacterial acids causing degradation of the enamel. Fluoride works bc it is incorporated into the enamel, replacing hydroxyl groups in hydroxyapatite to form fluorapatite which is more resistant to bacterial acids.

edit: among sticky foods, this also includes nuts/seeds (and nut butters by extension, incl. legumes such as peanut), as evidenced by archeological evidence suggesting that hunter-gatherers that relied upon such foods had a high risk of caries development. In contrast, hunter-gatherer peoples that ate primarily animal produce had a low rate of caries development until the introduction of refined carbs.


Meatrition OP t1_ivb581y wrote

>Dental caries is the quintessential disease of civilization, a disease which became prevalent with the start of cereal agriculture and rampant with the start of industrial sugar production [1]. A body of evidence supports the hypothesis that a diet leading to dental caries also leads to chronic non-communicable diseases [2].
>Most authoritative organizations aimed to protect public health ignore this evidence and take the view that dental caries is the only adverse side-effect of their high-carbohydrate nutritional guidelines, a side-effect which can be addressed with universal fluoride recommendations


[deleted] t1_ivb1tzc wrote



thehairyfoot_17 t1_ivdrbg8 wrote

This is not contraversial. In fact the "ecological plaque hypothesis" which is very well established in mainstream ondontology covers this.

The problem isn't that caries can largely be avoided in the vast majority of the population by diet and lifestyle choices. The problem is it is not avoided despite the knowledge.

Cheap and readily available high GI carb rich foods are the staple of modern civilisation. They are also likely a large cause of a lot of inflammatory and metabolic diseases such as diabetes which are increasing in prevalence.

So yes, academically fluoride should not be necessary as the cause and prevention of dental caries has been pretty firmly established for decades now. The problem is the practical application of this knowledge.

Anecdotally I would say the modern diet has largely degraded over the last decades despite this knowledge and sky-rocketing metabolic diseases. Despite public campaigns and education drives the understanding of what is actually a "carbohydrate" and what sugar is is abysmally low.

For now fluoridated water and toothpaste seems to be a necessary evil, unless we want to add crippling dental disease to the list of problems with the modern diet. (ironically you also find that people with less teeth or dentures tend to eat a poorer diet ie carb rich soft diet because it is not comfortable to chew whole foods...)