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ConsciousLiterature t1_iz35f38 wrote

Reply to comment by -domi- in Ashkenazi Jews Have Become More Genetically Similar Over Time – A new study of skeletons from a cemetery in Germany reveals a hidden history of Jews in the Middle Ages. by SebRLuck

How can it be both though? You can convert to be a Jew right?

Also this is just a subset of Jews.

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estherstein t1_iz39idb wrote

As an Orthodox Jew, my personal impression is that the race idea is almost entirely externally imposed- once people are persecuted for having "Jewish blood", it's kind of awkward to tell them outright that we really don't care if their father was Jewish.

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Meow_Game t1_iz4cbrz wrote

We are an Am Kadosh, a holy nation, and so we are a nation first before we are a religion. Jews are a people first and a religion second

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geetarzrkool t1_iz5ghai wrote

Please, provide the genetic definition you are using for your own assertion.

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bawng t1_iz6flfr wrote

Why does genetics matter?

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geetarzrkool t1_iz5g4qh wrote

...but the mother does, according to Deuteronomy. Can't have it both ways. If you're a "tribal nation", that just means close blood relations, which have to be defined, but never are. "Traditions" and "interpretations" are non-scientific and serve no purpose. DNA doesn't lie. That's why people hate it.

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estherstein t1_iz5k9lw wrote

I would argue though that since we only recognize matrilineal descent and we don't differentiate between descendants of converts it's a religious definition and not a tribal one. You cannot tell if someone is Jewish (according to Orthodox Jewish standards) by DNA. Maybe their great-great-great-great grandmother converted- and if that conversion was valid, and they can prove direct female descent, they're 100% Jewish.

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hikehikebaby t1_iz370rr wrote

More accurately, it's an ethno religious group or "people". You can convert into Judaism if you are accepted by a court of Jewish law - like applying for membership. Judaism is very old and is much older than modern concepts of race and religion.

Ashkenaz issues are a subset of Jews, but all Jewish groups are ethnically distinct and have more in common with one another than with other groups - we all have common DNA from before we were concord and exiled.

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China_Lover t1_iz44doa wrote

What is the proof that Jews were exiled, other than fictitious accounts such as the Bible?

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one_shattered_ego t1_iz59vpn wrote

There’s literally so much genealogical and historical evidence my dude. How else would you explain how Jews ended up all over, but still retain a narrow middle-eastern genetic lineage?

Also if you want more recent examples of Jewish exile you could look to the English expulsion of Jews in 1290, or the Spanish Inquisition in 1492. Jews have a long history of diaspora.

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fellow_enthusiast t1_iz49oi2 wrote

Did he, at any point in his statement, write anything about exile?

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hikehikebaby t1_iz58adn wrote

I did - and there's a lot of genetic and historic evidence. Not only do we know that it happened, we know exactly when and how. I'm not going to summarize all of it here, but there's a ton of information online including on Wikipedia and there's a ton of information in mainstream historic sources.

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fellow_enthusiast t1_izd7p5e wrote

> More accurately, it’s an ethno religious group or “people”. You can convert into Judaism if you are accepted by a court of Jewish law - like applying for membership. Judaism is very old and is much older than modern concepts of race and religion.

>Ashkenaz issues are a subset of Jews, but all Jewish groups are ethnically distinct and have more in common with one another than with other groups - we all have common DNA from before we were concord and exiled.

. Umm, no. no you did not. im not arguing wherher jews were or were not exiled, it just seemed like his question was a weird, antisemitic attack about something that you hadnt mentioned.

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one_shattered_ego t1_j10gdgz wrote

Sorry I’m super late to reply, but I just wanted to ask if you even read the comment you quoted? Read the last word of the quote in your own comment. I agree the person was being weirdly anti-Semitic and you were trying to have hitchhikebaby’s back, but the last word of their comment was literally “exiled”

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ConsciousLiterature t1_iz38hxk wrote

>More accurately, it's an ethno religious group or "people".

Isn't every group of people an ethnoreligious group?

>Ashkenaz issues are a subset of Jews, but all Jewish groups are ethnically distinct and have more in common with one another than with other groups - we all have common DNA from before we were concord and exiled.

You share 99% of your DNA with a banana. Is there some gene that only jews have or something?

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onan4843 t1_iz3o0ax wrote

Are you being purposefully obtuse or do you not know that certain ethnic groups have particular religions associated exclusively with them?

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suvlub t1_iz425cv wrote

>Isn't every group of people an ethnoreligious group?

Like, every every? Are the people standing at bus stop an ethno-religious group?

>You share 99% of your DNA with a banana

No. Only 50%. You are confusing it with chimps.

>Is there some gene that only jews have or something?

Pretty much, and not just one. You can tell whether someone has Jewish ancestry by doing a DNA test.

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Fhujeth t1_iz4qmo1 wrote

You would probably defend a native American tribe as its own religion and everything as its own ethnoreligion, Jews are no different. :)

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-domi- t1_iz3nwff wrote

Ari's point is that past a certain point of endogamy, the Ashkenazi are genetically distinct enough that they sort of share enough features that they kinda constitute their own race.

Well, to quote his words, specifically responding to the question of "how can it be a race," he says "cause you can pick a Jew out of a lineup."

And, yeah, i agree with you that the religion part is clearly a lot more flexible. But since the primary source of followers for Judaism is the offspring of existing Judaists, the two still have a big overlap.

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ConsciousLiterature t1_iz3vaap wrote

>Ari's point is that past a certain point of endogamy, the Ashkenazi are genetically distinct enough that they sort of share enough features that they kinda constitute their own race.

Kinda? Sounds like he wants to stretch the definition to make the ashkenazi feel special.

>Well, to quote his words, specifically responding to the question of "how can it be a race," he says "cause you can pick a Jew out of a lineup."

Can you though? really?

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-domi- t1_iz3x0ji wrote

He contrasts it with Catholics, and in that sense i kinda see his point. Then again, there are Judaic Africans, so it's obviously not that simple. His point was definitely to shame Ashkenazi people over inbreeding, and when i recently saw a post in /r/dataisbeautiful of a user showing a graph of his mother's Ashkenazi genealogy (probably the wrong term, but i don't remember the term they used for the graph), it was obvious that the different "branches" were relatively closely related, and the whole thing looped.

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geetarzrkool t1_iz5gx9c wrote

"a certain point", "distinct enough", "sort of share", "kinda constitute", "race".....sigh.

Very Scientific and "racist"! We all know how "Jews look". Please, provide said list of features.

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-domi- t1_iz6mxa4 wrote

Go watch Ari's special. It's all pretty explicitly listed. You'll know which one it is, trust me.

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