OrganicPumpkin9156 t1_j202qyz wrote
No amount of schooling or learning is going to change other people's minds about where you fit in their mythical hierarchy. I learned that the hard way, and it ruined my life.
CoysCircleJerk t1_j20as37 wrote
This “hierarchy” doesn’t seem particularly “mythical” given it’s impact on your life
OrganicPumpkin9156 t1_j20b732 wrote
The hierarchy is mythical; the assault and abuse its religious adherents resort to to enforce it is not.
CoysCircleJerk t1_j20umif wrote
Honestly don’t know which hierarchy we’re talking about, but I don’t really understand the concept of a “mythical hierarchy” - they’re social constructs.
If I was to put a bunch of babies in a bubble and raise them to adulthood, isolated completely from the rest of society, rewarding those who are the best at art (random example) with more food and material goods, they would almost certainly create a hierarchy around artistry.
The point I’m trying to make here is hierarchies can’t be be real, fake, mythical, etc. They either exist or they don’t and are determined by society, mostly based on environmental factors.
OrganicPumpkin9156 t1_j22fakb wrote
Then how do you explain the fact that so many people recognize that no human being is inherently better than another, and that most advantages in life are at least partially due to the random lottery of birth circumstances?
Any belief in some form of "natural, unavoidable" hierarchy is purely a manifestation of narcissism or other cluster-B disorder.
CoysCircleJerk t1_j24u9rx wrote
> Then how do you explain the fact that so many people recognize that no human being is inherently better than another.
You’ll have to be more specific here, as this could mean a whole lot of things, but if we’re talking about skill/talent, humans are most definitely not created equal.
> and that most advantages in life are at least partially due to the random lottery of birth circumstances?
Yup, 100%. Humans are shaped by nature (genetics) and nurture (upbringing), neither of which we control - that’s life though and something every human has to accept. That said, I still believe humans have the agency to shape their lives, although only to an extent. As the saying goes, “life’s not fair”.
I don’t really understand what either of your above points have to do with hierarchies though. They don’t have to be fair to exist.
> Any belief in some form of "natural, unavoidable" hierarchy is purely a manifestation of narcissism or other cluster-B disorder.
This is essentially my point - there is no such thing as a “natural” hierarchy, just as there’s no such thing as a “mythical” hierarchy. I do, however, believe certain hierarchies are extremely likely to develop due to the current societal landscape and the tendency of human beings to organize themselves in this structure.
Hierarchies among humans exist everywhere, in every community. Some are immediately obvious, while others are more subtle. Unfortunately, I think you’ll have to accept this, just as almost all humans have for thousands of years.
OrganicPumpkin9156 t1_j24wluc wrote
> You’ll have to be more specific here, as this could mean a whole lot of things, but if we’re talking about skill/talent, humans are most definitely not created equal.
I'm talking about basic human beings, regardless of gained skill. Also, what skills one can gain is highly dependent on birth fortunes.
> That said, I still believe humans have the agency to shape their lives, although only to an extent. As the saying goes, “life’s not fair”.
What you're disregarding is that other people also have agency to disrupt the live of any person they come in contact with - and they will purely out of unchecked malice. People won't maliciously interfere with another's life only if there is a credible threat of punishment for doing so. No punishment? A crowd will hack away at a person until he or she is chunks.
> Hierarchies among humans exist everywhere, in every community. Some are immediately obvious, while others are more subtle. Unfortunately, I think you’ll have to accept this, just as almost all humans have for thousands of years.
Hierarchies destroy the people trapped in them. Hierarchies are one reason why communities die. Humans aren't "accepting" this so much as they are trapped and suffering under them, with little means of escape.
CoysCircleJerk t1_j25c5uo wrote
> I'm talking about basic human beings, regardless of gained skill. Also, what skills one can gain is highly dependent on birth fortunes.
Again, I’m not entirely sure what you mean by this (I.e. what does “basic human beings” mean), but even removing learned skills, humans are still not created equal e.g. raw/natural athleticism, physical attractiveness (or at least what society perceives as attractive - this can change between different societies/time periods), intelligence, etc. I guess this is sort of what you’re getting at with “what skills one can gain is highly dependent on birth fortunes”? Just to be clear, I’m not arguing with you on this. We all have different starting points in life based on our natural talent (genetics) and upbringing.
> What you're disregarding is that other people also have agency to disrupt the live of any person they come in contact with - and they will purely out of unchecked malice. People won't maliciously interfere with another's life only if there is a credible threat of punishment for doing so. No punishment? A crowd will hack away at a person until he or she is chunks.
Yes, human beings can be extremely mean (this is not limited to just hierarchies though). I don’t disagree with you - I’m not making any statements about the morality of human beings or hierarchies.
More relevantly though, how does one enforce rules via punishment without hierarchy?
> People won't maliciously interfere with another's life only if there is a credible threat of punishment for doing so. No punishment? A crowd will hack away at a person until he or she is chunks.
I disagree with this - yes, some people are just mean spirited, but plenty of people aren’t, even without any risk of punishment. As for the “crowd” bit, what you’re referring to is mob mentality which is sort of a separate human phenomenon and causes humans to act in a number of abnormal ways - this is sort of related to hierarchies, but not directly, as mob mentality can exist outside of the context of hierarchies.
> Hierarchies destroy the people trapped in them. Hierarchies are one reason why communities die. Humans aren't "accepting" this so much as they are trapped and suffering under them, with little means of escape.
Again, I’m not trying to make any moral claims about hierarchies - they certainly are used as a mechanism to oppress. That said, I think hierarchies are essential for large scale societies/communities to function properly - a company, for instance, where everyone has equal influence/decision making power would be absolute chaos and highly inefficient.
This ability to organize ourselves in large societies/communities is one of the main reasons anthropologists believe homo sapiens beat out all other “homo” variants - it’s literally in our nature.
OrganicPumpkin9156 t1_j260g50 wrote
> I disagree with this - yes, some people are just mean spirited, but plenty of people aren’t, even without any risk of punishment.
I've never encountered these people; people will transform into cruel monsters as soon as I walk into a room, without me saying word.
> As for the “crowd” bit, what you’re referring to is mob mentality which is sort of a separate human phenomenon and causes humans to act in a number of abnormal ways - this is sort of related to hierarchies, but not directly, as mob mentality can exist outside of the context of hierarchies.
Fair enough, but every person's opinion of me seems to come directly from bigoted social norms, as the behavior the exhibit echoes bigoted behavior toward others exactly.
> I think hierarchies are essential for large scale societies/communities to function properly - a company, for instance, where everyone has equal influence/decision making power would be absolute chaos and highly inefficient.
But what price efficiency? I'd rather be free to do as I please (as long as I harm no others) without unjust punishment even if it costs a little more. I've been paying great sums all my life only to be terrorized wherever I go as it is. I'm not saving any resources through this hierarchy - only the top saves; the bottom bears all the costs.
> This ability to organize ourselves in large societies/communities is one of the main reasons anthropologists believe homo sapiens beat out all other “homo” variants - it’s literally in our nature.
That's done at the cost of ruthlessly stamping out any individual thought. Only group thinkers are allowed in the group.
[deleted] t1_j2aiaqr wrote
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