Submitted by Beepboopbop8 t3_125wol4 in singularity
Iffykindofguy t1_je6d6eg wrote
Reply to comment by Paraphrand in My case against the “Pause Giant AI Experiments” open letter by Beepboopbop8
Actually "growth at all cost" is the thing that makes capitalism the most harmful.
D_Ethan_Bones t1_je6i8l5 wrote
Growth is necessary to keep up with growing demands but concentration is not - we've created a (present day) system where humanity is excellent at growth but terrible at extending the benefits of growth to the common person.
What does being upper 1% in America get you today? Single income homeowner status, what finishing high school and talking to the manager got you in the 1960s. My grandparents' houses were in Southern California a stone's throw from the beach.
Iffykindofguy t1_je6jfc5 wrote
Growth at all cost is what I said is the problem, once shareholders get involved that is all a company can do, I didnt say growth. just to be clear. I agree with everything else you said.
Justdudeatplay t1_je7hpnb wrote
Well you have to build more houses for that issue, but regga and resource constraints make it so that the supply can’t keep up. We need new building methods and removal of all the constraints towns and cities place on development. It’s not magical. Housing prices go up because of high demand, low supply, and easy money. The only solution is remove the barriers to development and the houses will come and the prices will drop. I think removing foreign landlords might be a good idea too, but if they want to build and sell, let them.
blueSGL t1_je6rikh wrote
> "growth at all cost"
so cancer.
Iffykindofguy t1_je6rlu5 wrote
I would 100% say capitalism has become a cancer, yes.
throwaway12131214121 t1_je8bf6d wrote
There are a lot of similarities. The profit motive of capitalism, and more recently(aka past 200 years) the requirement that companies grow to appease shareholders, is what has caused capitalism to spread itself and become the dominant global system. Now it can’t grow geographically anymore, so it’s been growing in other ways and it’s going to continue doing so until there are no resources left and the system, along with everything else on earth, collapses. AI gives me some hope because it offers an alternative way for capitalism to collapse that doesn’t ruin everything for everyone forever.
Orc_ t1_je7q39r wrote
Growth at all cost it what will bring AGI. Any other system would be stuck at 90's computer tech right now and that's being nice. A perfectly sustainable system could potentially be stuck in the same spot forever.
throwaway12131214121 t1_je8bnv9 wrote
Yeah but every other system would also not have colonized the entire planet through countless continuous genocides and centuries of exploitation.
AGI is probably the last trick capitalism will pull before it dies. Either that or climate change. I’m hoping it’s AGI, because that has the potential to actually be positive.
Orc_ t1_je8czkd wrote
> Yeah but every other system would also not have colonized the entire planet through countless continuous genocides and centuries of exploitation.
That would have been impossible, furthermore egalitarian systems are not inherently peaceful outwards or even ecological. Teotihuacan as an example.
throwaway12131214121 t1_je8dg8m wrote
What would have been impossible?
Lots of empires were outwardly expansive. None of them took over the world like capitalism did, because their expansionist goals were motivated simply by power fantasies of their leaders.
Capitalist motivations are different because they apply to everybody in society, and whoever carries them out the best is automatically put into a position of power, so the society is quickly controlled by capitalist forces and becomes hyperfocused on capitalist interests and that doesn’t stop even when the people doing it die; they are just replaced with new capitalists.
That’s why so many elites in modern society are utter sociopaths; empathy gets in the way of profit a lot of the time and so if you have empathy there are people who will outcompete you and you won’t get to the top
Orc_ t1_je8ef0o wrote
> What would have been impossible?
For a non-modern system to exist that somehow prevent all wars, genocides, famines, etc. It's High Fantasy.
> Lots of empires were outwardly expansive. None of them took over the world like capitalism did, because their expansionist goals were motivated simply by power fantasies of their leaders.
Power that came from CAPITAL, capitalism has always existed since the first civilization, it even existed in the USSR.
throwaway12131214121 t1_je8sjjb wrote
I didn’t say that a system existed that prevented all wars, genocides, and famines, I don’t know where you got that from.
No, capitalism has not existed since the first civilization. You’re making the common mistake of conflating capitalism with a market. Capitalism is the system of private ownership that separates the working class, those who make money by selling labor, from the owning class, those who make money by owning the means of production. Prior to around the 16 or 17-hundreds, it did not exist, and before then most of the countries where it originated were some variation of a feudal society.
But you’re kinda right with the Soviet Union thing. The Soviet Union was not capitalist in the same way a place like the United States is, but it was very similar. The key difference being that the owning class was united with the state, which allowed capitalist and state oppression to unite a lot more dramatically.
Paraphrand t1_je6djjv wrote
I think I’m just talking about a subset of what you are. “If we don’t do this, they will and we won’t be able to grow. So let’s cut some ethical corners!”
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