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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ir9vypz wrote

The vast majority of people don't have the knowledge needed, explicit and inexplicit, nor the interest, to get a PhD at MIT. But their brains and minds are absolutely capable of learning and retaining the necessary knowledge to do so. It's absurd to think otherwise, not to mention sad.

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beachmike t1_ir9zx1j wrote

You don't know what the hell you're talking about. I went to engineering school at University of Michigan. Classes such as advanced calculus and physical chemistry are HARD, and require far more than just the willingness and motivation to learn, or a good memory. The vast majority of people ***DO NOT*** have the intelligence to do well at those classes, and go on to even more difficult graduate school classes at a place like MIT.

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_ira2nof wrote

The arrogance is astounding. The vast majority of people you're talking about have absolutely no interest in studying in those fields. Those that try and fail, were unable to create/learn the inexplicit knowledge required to understand everything. That does NOT mean they cannot, in principle, create/learn that requisite knowledge, merely that they failed to do so. When someone makes an error, we never assume they are doomed to forever make that error. We can correct our errors. There is absolutely no difference between a simple error correction, and an extremely large complex error correction, except for scale. If someone can understand explanations for one thing, there is nothing, in principle, stopping them from understanding anything else. You're essentially advocating for supernatural thinking. That there is some special magical thing about complex explanations that means only certain people with special intelligence can understand. That is just not true. We are universal intelligences, and given enough time, anyone can understand anything. I readily admit that some people are quicker and more efficient at understanding, whether it be because of the inexplicit knowledge they create as young children, or because their memory and processing power is higher. But taking much longer to understand something is very very different from being in principle unable to ever understand something. Unless someone is severely disabled, they are universal in their ability to understand.

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beachmike t1_irq06qy wrote

The naivete is astounding. The detachment from reality is astounding. The reality is that individuals have vastly different levels of ability and intelligence in different fields. You said "We are universal intelligences, and given enough time, anyone can understand anything." ***That's absolute nonsense*** You believe, given enough time, someone with an IQ of 85 (about 1 standard deviation below the mean) can understand Advanced Calculus or Advance Physical Chemistry. That's absurd.

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MurderByEgoDeath t1_irqxkca wrote

IQ is a completely useless measure for this particular job. It measures acquired knowledge, explicit and inexplicit, memory, and processing power. Not universality. If someone is disabled to the point of lacking universality, then no, they couldn't learn Advanced Calculus. But yes, given enough time, and most importantly, actual interest, there's no reason someone couldn't learn it. The fact is, people like that have very very very little focus for things like that, because it's much more difficult for them and no fun at all. But if they for some reason became extremely interested in it and unlimited time, then yes, they could learn Advanced Calculus. There is nothing, in principle, stopping them.

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beachmike t1_irr0ks4 wrote

You're missing the forest for the trees. Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Someone with a below average IQ CANNOT do well in advanced science and math classes at MIT. It doesn't matter how much they desire to do well, study, or memorize.

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pentin0 t1_iruki8b wrote

His point is pretty simple to understand: there is no qualitative leap between the brains and minds of people who do well at MIT and the common healthy bloke. He isn't claiming that anyone could "do well" in those schools (because it would imply performing at the same level on a battery of standardized tests... which basically are a proxy for IQ testing. Since no one here is claiming that we all have the same IQ, your rebuke to his position would qualify as a strawman.

Regarding "good memory", it actually is pretty much the gist of it. It's not about having good long-term memory (the ability to "memorize" stuff) but sufficient working memory performance (the neocortex's distributed "RAM"); which has been observed to strongly correlate with IQ. To make it short, the main differences amongst humans that are relevant to the IQ distribution seem to be quantitative in nature (mostly, working memory performance, which itself is highly dependent on white matter integrity i.e. myelination of neuronal axons).

Notice that I didn't say "working memory size" because, as the research shows, these resources are scattered over such a sizeable portion of the brain that the relatively tiny differences in unit recruitment wouldn't explain much of the experimental data within the prevailing theories. So yeah, I'm talking about short-term memory encoding/decoding performance, here.

I know it's a hard pill to swallow but if you want to rely on "intelligence" to explain that phenomenon, then you'll lose your biggest opportunity to argue for qualitative factors as the main drivers of academic performance. In fact, working memory performance (which is much more straightforwardly quantitative than intelligence) is an even better predictor of academic success, especially at higher IQs (interestingly enough, the scenario that would be more relevant to this AGI/ASI debate).

Finally, since we're playing this game, I also went to an engineering school (studied AI), so don't expect your appeal to authority to work here. Let's be real about STEM classes: that shit might be "HARD" but it ain't witchcraft. It's also ironic that you used the driest and most clear-cut subjects as examples. It doesn't strengthen your point.

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beachmike t1_irv0pvu wrote

You OBVIOUSLY misunderstand the point I'm disputing. MurderByEgoDeath wrote: "Everyone CAN get a PhD from MIT and anything else. We all have that potential ability." Anyone with half a brain knows that is NOT TRUE. We DO NOT all have that potential ability. Not even close. I AM an authority on this subject because I've seen 1st hand people that were simply not smart enough to do well in undergraduate coursework at a top engineering and science university. You made several other incorrect arguments, but I'm not going to waste further time disputing them.

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