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Specialist_Sea_244 t1_j5fw225 wrote

There is no meaning to life other than what you have invented for it. If you can invent meaning for yourself in non-AI today, you will invent meaning in post-AI tomorrow.

If you don't need meaning today; then you won't tomorrow.

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IamDonya OP t1_j5gikj2 wrote

I like the optimism that we will find new meaning, and hope you are right.

It sounds like you believe we all invent our own meaning which could be almost anything. I disagree with that and think evolution has pretty much hardcoded us to want to "make a positive difference" and that it will be very disorienting for the majority of people if AIs do everything better so there is no positive difference left to make.

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FridgeParade t1_j5gju9v wrote

Well, the ultra rich trust fund kids who basically dont have to think about money or achieving anything seem to be doing fine, so Im not worried about a life without work.

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usaaf t1_j5h12tc wrote

This, right here. Work and 'productive' employment are not the natural condition of humans. People who worry about 'purpose' should be super careful that that isn't their Capitalist brainwashing talking, because in this day and age, with the veritable flooding of Capitalist propaganda through every avenue, including the obvious (advertising, cultural productions) to the least suspicious (seemingly simple interactions with family/friends), there's a high chance anyone who thinks they need work has been thoroughly tricked into loving the fact they're a cog for the profit of a few.

People who say "I would feel bored without work" are great for the Capitalist. They have been conditioned by the system to love work, and that's not good. The ethical question about programming a robot to enjoy being a slave has already been answered by the Capitalists and their answer is "We'll do anything for more money." People today have already been 'programmed' to love their work, and it ain't a pretty thing. It's the root cause of 99% of these posts about how AI is going to make us so bored we kill ourselves or whatever. Yeah, if you've been told by your culture/society that you must work to feel good, then the end of that requirement could feel a little frightening and horrible.

Or it could feel like withdrawal from an extremely nasty drug, and once you get over it you might find you like life without Capitalist-purpose looming over you to be pretty damn good.

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iiioiia t1_j5lzw1y wrote

> People who worry about 'purpose' should be super careful that that isn't their Capitalist brainwashing talking, because in this day and age, with the veritable flooding of Capitalist propaganda through every avenue, including the obvious (advertising, cultural productions) to the least suspicious (seemingly simple interactions with family/friends), there's a high chance anyone who thinks they need work has been thoroughly tricked into loving the fact they're a cog for the profit of a few.

What do you consider "Capitalist" propaganda?

As far as I'm concerned, the much more dangerous form of propaganda out there that's flying below most everyone's radar is "democracy" propaganda.

Economic systems are subordinate to the governmental system, provided actors within the economic system haven't taken over the governmental system (a bit too late for that methinks).

Install an actual democracy and these "capitalism" issues will be solved rather quickly, perhaps even voluntarily - "Would you like to share a bit more, or would you like to be nationalized / 'fucked with constantly'?" can be rather persuasive.

Also noteworthy: governmental systems are subordinate to Mother Nature.

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BigZaddyZ3 t1_j5h1n2g wrote

Why do people like Elon Musk still opt to work then?

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FridgeParade t1_j5h27xu wrote

Greed disease / narcissistic tendencies that need constant validation / hunger for power.

Just because some do, doesn’t mean we have to to be happy. A lot of rich people dont work at all and live perfectly happy lives. Besides, some of them “work”, in my opinion it becomes a glorified hobby when you absolutely dont need to do it.

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BigZaddyZ3 t1_j5h2vsh wrote

Aren’t those just assumptions on your part tho? How do you know it isn’t simply because a life of endless hedonism probably becomes a bit boring after a little while?

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FridgeParade t1_j5isoeg wrote

I grew up in a very rich area and was exposed to these families quite a bit.

Besides, people who are retired dont seem to have issues either?

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Miserable_Mine_8601 t1_j5h2zun wrote

Why do people opt to run off to the forest and never come back

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BigZaddyZ3 t1_j5h3pzy wrote

Why do multi-millionaires who could stop working after their first big contract, usually wait until they’re old to retire? They don’t need the money, yet you rarely hear about rich 20 year olds retiring and choosing to live the exact life some here claim they would enjoy. Why?

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Dr__glass t1_j5h61iv wrote

You don't hear about them because they retire to a private life. It's survivorship bias, you don't hear about the millionaires that don't keep working in the public eye so it seems like it doesn't happen

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BigZaddyZ3 t1_j5hpo68 wrote

Why don’t we see the ones who are rich and famous right now doing it? How often do you really see a person get rich in their youth and then immediately retire? Be realistic.

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94746382926 t1_j5u4a6u wrote

There's entire communities of people who strive for super early retirement. Check out /r/leanfire or /r/fire for countless examples of people retiring in their 30's and 40's.

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Spire_Citron t1_j5hhjeb wrote

Why would you hear about the people who retire young with just a few million?

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BigZaddyZ3 t1_j5hpc8c wrote

I meant like athletes for example. How come Steph Curry doesn’t retire after his first 200 million dollar deal is completed for instance?

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randomwordglorious t1_j5hx3gr wrote

He loves to play basketball. If the NBA went out of business tomorrow and the most competitive basketball league in the world was only paying $50 per game, he'd play for $50 per game.

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BigZaddyZ3 t1_j5hxgwa wrote

Then why not just retire and play basketball all day at one of his luxurious houses? It’d be even better for him it it was really just about loving the game right?

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Spire_Citron t1_j5i01ql wrote

I mean, nobody's saying that people who are motivated by competition or making a name for themselves don't exist. They certainly do. Becoming a pro athlete is something that takes a lot of work and dedication and which very few people get famous from doing, so it makes sense that the people who find success in it actually love doing it and don't want to drop it the second they have enough money to live comfortably. They're not a good representation of an average person.

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randomwordglorious t1_j5j6iad wrote

If he could get the best players in the world to play against him at his house, he would. But the highest level of competition is in the NBA, so that's where he plays.

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not_into_that t1_j5jwa5h wrote

Because there is something fundamentally broken in him.

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BigZaddyZ3 t1_j5jxfar wrote

Ehh… that’s a little ableist don’t you think 😂

But on a serious note, I disagree. There’s a reason many people like playing games on the harder difficulties. (And sometimes they want even harder difficulties than those). It’s because when things are too easy, they become boring. They’re nothing fulfilling or gratifying about a life of total hedonism. And while certainly nobody wants a life that’s too difficult. It remains to be seen whether or not humans will truly enjoy a life with absolutely no responsibility or stakes like many here assume we will. I think that’s what OP and I were really getting at. Just my two cents

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naxospade t1_j5r62wl wrote

Maybe this life is just a big multi-user simulated experience to stave off the boredom of eons.

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ahundredplus t1_j5ip3n6 wrote

Are they? The ones I know seem to be blanketed in insecurity, depression, and drug addiction. Propping up pet projects with trust money but not much else.

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FridgeParade t1_j5isj66 wrote

Haha yeah thats a common trope, but there are millions of these people and not all are drug addicts.

But we will definitely need to make sure we have proper systems in place to prevent such issues.

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ahundredplus t1_j5l5g5r wrote

I'd say insecurity by doing nothing worthwhile is a far more common occurrence than "drug addiction". It's just one of the many characteristics.

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LeIAmNeeson t1_j5hxfdi wrote

OP I really appreciate your post, and I'm sorry that most of the responses are shitty and pessimistic as fuck. Hopefully I never meet any of these hopeless Eeyore's who have apparently never been inspired to think deeper about why we are alive than just eating, shitting, sleeping, and fucking. So anyways fuck these other people and thanks again for thinking the way you do, because I think the same way.

Artificial intelligence poses the greatest existential dilemma that Humanity has ever faced. Every other obstacle in our past has paled in comparison. In fact, it goes against one of the very most central values in the American culture, the "American Dream". The belief that every human is deserving of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And that through hard work, every person should be able to have a good life.

Assuming that AGI is indeed going to happen, it will render large swaths of society useless in the workforce. Humans are meant to work, and to think, and to create, and to build. That is how we evolved and I honestly believe in some ways that it was our destiny to bring about the singularity. In fact I think that from some perspectives, human society is a major part of the singularity. We are the ones that are causing the exponential technological progress - artificial intelligence will only continue the progression forward.

But anyways, once we are all rendered "useless" in comparison to the godlike capabilities of AI, we are going to have to take a good hard look at ourselves. Most people throughout history have been inspired because they want to be the best, they want to leave a mark on the world, they want to be a leader in their village, they want to be remembered. That is what motivates us and when we were kids it is what we dreamed about, told stories about, and sung songs about.

Personally, I think that each of us should do our absolute best to put as much good out into the world as we can. Once the singularity comes, all of these other commenters are going to be sadly disappointed. Because a singularity is not something that we live beyond. So our purpose is to do whatever we feel is right in our life to positively influence the world around us. Although most of us won't have any hand in actually creating the AGI, we can do our best to "keep the lights on" so that other people can do the work the humanity was destined to accomplish. Sanitary workers can keep the streets clean, electricians can keep the lights on, politicians can do their best to keep improving our societies, and teachers can keep doing their best to train the next (and probably last) generation of humans.

This might sounds fairly depressing, but think of this: What are the odds that you are alive to be reading this sentence right now? Out of all of the 28 decillion + organisms alive on Earth right now, you get to experience life as the most intelligent species there is. Out of all of the 3.7 billion years of life on earth and 200,000 years of human existence, you just happen to live right now at the pinnacle of humanity, right when we are approaching the singularity. Out of all of the people who have ever lived, I will bet that in comparison, most of you live very privileged lives as we experience this incredible time period, when we have the full wealth of human knowledge at our fingertips with your smartphone. The odds of all of these questions are near-infinitesimally small.

And knowing all of this, I just don't understand how these other commenters can be so damn petty and small-minded and act like we are basically just dust in the wind. We are not dust. We are the greatest creatures who have ever walked the earth and we are destined to bring about the singularity. And those of us who continue to dream big are the ones who truly embody what it means to be a human. To you other commenters: have some respect for the fucking privilege you've been given to experience this life as a human, and maybe, just maybe, try not to be such assholes.

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RabidHexley t1_j5oeiqg wrote

I'm sorry. I get what you're saying, and it may apply to some people, but I really don't think it does to many. And I don't see why saying otherwise makes someone an asshole. This also is an unnecessarily depressing post.

A key point here is what is "useless" or "worthless", in terms of a human. In the current world we already have to accept that for 99.99% of us what we do could easily be accomplished by one of the other millions and billions of people on this planet. How different is an AI in this regard?

Everything that I personally get joy from in life, I have literally zero care if an AI is able to do it better, I'm still getting something out of it. And I'm not talking about hedonistic pleasures, I'm talking about genuine pursuits and passions. The only thing I care about is having the freedom to pursue those passions, not a need to express my unique ability as a human to perform a task.

AI doing what I can do better doesn't take away my desire to explore, to experience life, to enjoy the world and the people around me, to enjoy creating for its own sake (and not in an attempt to be the "best" at it).

We already have planes and cars, we already have computers that can realistically simulate virtuosic instrumental playing with programming, we have weapons that have invalidated human strength, massive machines that cultivate our food.

The domain of human superiority has already shrunk by magnitudes, but people still keep being humans.

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LeIAmNeeson t1_j5oi4v2 wrote

Actually I agree with you, that maybe this post doesn't apply for everyone, or even most people. It seems like there is a difference in psychology, maybe philosophy. And I appreciate the honest critique.

But it is honestly saddening to think that many people think that way. In my opinion, kids should be raised to believe that they can achieve anything if they work hard enough at it. Even if you aren't the smartest or the most athletic, people can still accomplish incredible things.

Yes, there will probably always be someone else out there is better at most things. But that's not what it's about. Life is about living your life to the fullest and trying to accomplish something truly great in each moment. Even something as simple as helping someone out, after you've had an exhausting day at work. You can accomplish something remarkable in that moment by pushing through with a smile on your face.

As for technology already overtaking us, that is simply not true. Technology has always been something that extended the reach of humans, not overstepped us. Cars allow us to travel faster, electricity allows us greater power, computers increase our intelligence. But those things always amplified human action and thought. Now with artificial intelligence, we face a technology that will indeed replace us.

And last point. Once the singularity comes, you will not be able to continue doing what makes you happy. That is not how the Universe or evolution works. Once there is a dominant species in a system, whether it takes 5, or 10, or 50 years, eventually the superior being won't just keep us humans alive out of love or pity or something. No - it will do what life does best and fully embrace the life it has been given to explore and create and accomplish whatever it's nature desires.

P.S. the reason I called other people assholes is because they are claiming that life has no purpose. That's just something that I disagree with wholeheartedly. It's a lot easier to be skeptical in life than to be someone with hope and optimism. It takes effort to imagine that we are here for a reason, and that humans are not just a speck in the mud.

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RabidHexley t1_j5onv6d wrote

My interpretation of "life has no purpose" is that we make our own purpose. There is no prescribed purpose native to the universe in an of itself, we make it. As the world changes around us we change the things we find purpose in, a lot of that being a means of adapting to the lives we live (whether we chose to live that life or not).

My point about technology overtaking us is that humans still partake in activities that could objectively be performed better or far more easily through the assistance of machines. We willingly forgo machine assistance in pursuit of a lived experience.

Just look at /r/mightyharvest. These folks aren't providing for anyone from the fruits of their labor, and practically speaking a small home garden for produce is inefficient to the highest degree, but joy is still found from the mere pursuit. Should they instead use that time to try and become doctors, scientists, athletes or paradigm shifting artists of renown? Would that be a truer pursuit of purpose?

This kind of stuff wouldn't go anywhere.

AI won't replace our experience of life, nothing can. What it can do is hopefully create a future in which more people can choose what they want their purpose to be based on the life they want to live.

Edit: The problem with AI art for instance isn't that it replaces artists. It's that it makes it economically less feasible to be an artist, because it's harder to use your art to provide for yourself. It's not because it makes replaces the human desire to create art.

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LeIAmNeeson t1_j5or9dn wrote

Very well spoken. I'm having a hard time putting my finger on exactly what the differences are between each of our arguments, but I think we share more in common than it might seem.

In response to r/mightharvest, it seems like we both see that there is a sort of simple and poetic beauty in the undertaking of an activity like that. Where there is no possibility for eventual payoff, just the pleasure of being in tune with nature.

I was atheist for basically my whole life (29 years), and it always seemed like the Universe was a cold, lifeless, desolate place, and that life on Earth was just an anomaly. That is what science and logic seems to show. But that viewpoint has changed for me over the last few years. It might sound phoney, but my thinking has genuinely shifted to a place where atheism no longer makes sense to me. Going back to my first comment, the odds just seem so incredibly small that we just happen to be lucky enough to be alive as humans right now and that it's all just a near-infinitesimally small coincidence.

It feels like we truly do matter and we have purpose beyond simply what we happen to imagine up for ourselves (even though I agree that is an innate feature of humans). It feels bigger than coincidence that we happen to be alive at exactly the moment of the singularity and the climate crisis. When everything seems to be converging together all at once.

Anyways, sorry to ramble, but at this point the difference between our arguments is simply opinion. There aren't any flaws in logic, just a difference in worldview.

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[deleted] t1_j5j7elg wrote

Your comment has reignited my hope for the future. Thank you, stranger, for being a ray of sunshine in this gloomy thread.

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RabidHexley t1_j5m1nq0 wrote

> there is no positive difference left to make.

I think this is the core of where your problem lies, in holding the belief that the key to a meaningful, fulfilling existence is by contributing to works. And by making a "difference".

We make our own meaning, most of us find meaning in our lives while doing tasks that millions of other people could do just as well, or by finding personal fulfillment in hobbies or passions that don't provide a practical benefit to anyone other than a personal sense of joy and self-expression.

There isn't any amount of skill an AI could hold that could take that away from us. Would AI farmers take away the joy of cultivating my own garden? Or of in painting the perfect image of a sunset just as it feels in my own mind? Do I feel less fulfilled having climbed a mountain when a helicopter could get there in a fraction of the time? Could an AI prevent me from finding fulfillment in time spent with friends and family? Did potters give up their passion when manufacturing started producing high quality pots and bowls by the millions? Did piano players stop learning when you could program realistic sounds in MIDI? We could go on of course...

Our ability to find fulfillment in our lives isn't tied to any intrinsic need to complete practical tasks that only we can do. It comes entirely from within and each other and is something that is discovered by living in a way that fulfills our sense of self.

Trust me when I say that that isn't going anywhere.

In a world where AI replaced almost all practical tasks, there would certainly be individuals who feel crestfallen when the career or passion they pursued is no longer needed in the practical sense. But that drive was developed by living in a world where people were still needed to do those things, not because it was the only path to a fulfilling existence.

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Specialist_Sea_244 t1_j5htb1a wrote

For the sake of argument, I will agree with the premise that we have a drive to make a difference.

However, my point still stands. Every individual will make the determination of what a "positive difference" means. It could be picking up trash in a local forest. It could be raising your kids well. It could be teaching everyone that the true meaning of the [name of religious text] is that we should kill the [insert enemy]."

I think the hard wiring is to preserve your genetics. The next most common drive is to preserve memetics.

There is still no objective measure of "genetic preservation". You can have children. You can protect your brothers children in an act of altruism [save them from a fire that kills you]. You can try to preserve "your race." People think of all kinds of wacky things...

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