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moral_luck t1_j7jjcv0 wrote

Reply to comment by simcoder in Rolls-Royce Nuclear Engine Could Power Quick Trips to the Moon and Mars by darthatheos

>I guess with nuclear it's just a matter of the scales involved.

Exactly my point. Coal is much worse for people than nuclear, even when accounting for MWh/year life lost. So many more people are affected by coal than nuclear.

It's like comparing car accidents to air accidents. Car accidents cause more deaths in total and per mile traveled, but people freak out about air accidents because there are more deaths per accident.

Or where you trying to imply that mining and heavy industry actually pay out all the indemnities they should, but nuclear plants don't? Politics kind of makes that improbable.

Still don't understand the "nuclear expert" comment. Are you referring to yourself as the "nuclear expert" or to me?

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simcoder t1_j7jjg2e wrote

You should really look up how the indemnities work to have a fuller understanding of what you're advocating. It's worth your time.

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moral_luck t1_j7jjmii wrote

So you're a lawyer?

I'm very confused about your point. If you are a lawyer I'd think you'd be better about making your point.

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simcoder t1_j7jjo3r wrote

It should be crystal clear by this point I would have thought?

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moral_luck t1_j7jjslu wrote

Your point? Crystal clear? If mud is crystal.

You've done little to further your point. Or to counter my claims that fossil fuels have more social costs than nuclear.

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simcoder t1_j7jjwpw wrote

It's just that you're probably going to struggle understanding the "privatizing profits and socializing costs" angle if you don't know what indemnities are and how they function in the nuclear power equation.

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moral_luck t1_j7jkbag wrote

Oh. So you've taken steps to make your point clearer? Crystal clear? Like hematite?

Or you've countered my claims that coal plants cause asthma, but haven't been held responsible for them?

If you're a lawyer, you're not very good at supporting your point.

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simcoder t1_j7jkf9p wrote

I'm just saying that if you want to understand what I meant by privatizing profits and socializing costs you have to understand what indemnities are and how they work in the nuclear power industry

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moral_luck t1_j7jkowd wrote

If you really wanted me to understand your POV on indemnities and socializing costs and privatizing profits were, you'd have done so by now.

But you haven't. Because you know I'm right.

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simcoder t1_j7jku28 wrote

You don't seem to be very trusting of my opinion. And that's perfectly fine.

That's why I suggested you do your own research so you're not having to depend on my own personal take on the subject.

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moral_luck t1_j7jl00c wrote

You haven't had an opinion in the last 5 responses.

Socialized costs is much greater than indemnities.

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simcoder t1_j7jl3kg wrote

That's because you refuse to educate yourself on the subject so we can begin an actual debate on the subject of indemnities and how they affect the cost structure of nuclear power.

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moral_luck t1_j7jld3q wrote

Yes, the person who has posted references is the person who refuses to do research or educate themselves.

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simcoder t1_j7jlhlt wrote

Well. I gotta say. After all this, it still sounds like you don't understand what they are. And it's really not hard at all to find out what they are and how they work.

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moral_luck t1_j7jlv3d wrote

You do realize that CO2 emission is a socialized cost, right? Socialized costs are bigger than what's in a contract.

I'm beginning to think you have no idea what indemnities are. You keep typing the word, but haven't given any evidence you know how they work.

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simcoder t1_j7jm003 wrote

OK then. Well it was good chatting with you. Definitely check those things out if you want to consider yourself an informed nuclear advocate.

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moral_luck t1_j7jmh8v wrote

Are you the nuclear expert you were talking about earlier?

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simcoder t1_j7jmnlh wrote

Expert is kind of a relative term. I do know how the indemnities work in the nuclear industry.

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moral_luck t1_j7jnkkq wrote

So if you have specific knowledge of an industry insider, why would you assume that everyone would have access to that same knowledge?

Does that also give you knowledge of indemnities in the coal industry? How about plastic? Are you aware of the concept of externalized cost (basically interchangeable with socialized costs)?

Externalized costs exist in all forms of industry. Even groceries. Are you suggesting that only those things specifically mentioned in an indemnity is the entire social cost of a thing? And nuclear is the worst alternative, in terms of externalized costs, per MWh among electrical generation methods?

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simcoder t1_j7jnn5r wrote

I'm not an industry insider. Google and wiki are just about all you need to get the high level gist.

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moral_luck t1_j7jnp1j wrote

Ah, I got ya. That is why you kept talking in circles.

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simcoder t1_j7jnwd7 wrote

LOL. OK. Well at least I'm not the one making a fool of themselves by not knowing what they are talking about.

Good chat!

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moral_luck t1_j7jo0fd wrote

I think you proved you didn't know what you are talking about.

Which is why you avoided talking about it.

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simcoder t1_j7jplpb wrote

OK.

Well, anywho, look up those indemnities so next time you'll know what you're talking about. Should make for a much more interesting conversation.

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moral_luck t1_j7jqn6g wrote

You've made it very clear you have no idea what indemnities actually are. Or how they work.

You've also made it clear you don't understand that indemnities are not connected to the total socialized cost. How much did "x" corporation contribute to the polluted water of Flint, MI?

Sure, they have indemnities. Even if we legally could and wanted to, we still can't calculate the total cost. We know the total costs is insane, but don't know how many years of lost productive labor was lost due to health issues. Nor can we assign a specific amount of to each corporation, even if indemnities allowed it.

But you're not a lawyer. You just pretend to be one on the internet.

Why don't you explain it to me in your own words? Surely you can ELI5.

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simcoder t1_j7jqppb wrote

How can you even make a judgement when you don't even know what they are? No wonder you're a fan of nuclear!

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moral_luck t1_j7jrcpq wrote

Well, you still have your chance to prove you know what you are talking about.

Tell me how indemnities are the total final socialized cost of thing.

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simcoder t1_j7jrhq7 wrote

I already said why you should find out yourself and you just plowed on with not wanting to know or educate yourself for many many posts.

So why should I do your homework for you?

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moral_luck t1_j7jrnv0 wrote

You have no fucking clue, do you? You are completely clueless. You read an article about indemnities in the nuclear industry, and now you have no idea how to explain it at all. You can't actually understand what you read. And you surely wouldn't be able to explain it or connect it to a conversation about socialized costs.

You've proved all this.

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simcoder t1_j7jrw8a wrote

So tell me why the indemnities aren't socializing the costs and privatizing the profit?

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moral_luck t1_j7jsali wrote

I never said they weren't. I said they are nearly irrelevant when calculating the TRUE socialized cost.

Even if we could sue a coal company from co2 emissions because our crops died from a heat wave, we couldn't. Even if there are no indemnities. It would be hard to prove that that specific plant contributed to that specific heat wave. But it's still a socialized cost, indemnity or not.

You learned a big word and think it's a conversation. You're such a big boy!

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simcoder t1_j7jsfqv wrote

How can you say the cost of a cleanup or evacuating a Tokyo or New York is irrelevant?

Those are entirely relevant and were you to include them in the cost structure it would make nuclear power far too expensive to be competitive.

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moral_luck t1_j7jslwz wrote

You realize a EULA contain indemnities? Or even being on reddit?

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simcoder t1_j7jspuo wrote

It's sounds like you're still kind of struggling to understand the concept WRT nuclear power. Again, i don't think you'll accept my opinion on the matter so I suggest you really try to understand how they work in the nuclear power cost equation and then we can have a more fruitful discussion on the matter.

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moral_luck t1_j7jt7rn wrote

Three mile island cost about $1 billion from 1979 to 1991. Or about $3 billion in today's money.

How much cost has coal externalized in the last 40 years?

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moral_luck t1_j7jszcb wrote

Quick question. What do you think the total externalized cost of Fukushima was? I have an estimate ~$100billion. Sound like a lot, right?

Coal industry externalizes an estimated $50 billion/year.

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simcoder t1_j7jt8v2 wrote

I'm no fan of coal and I'm a huge, huge fan of clean air regulations and things like carbon/pollution taxes. So, to that extent, I'm in favor of acknowledging the true price of coal as well.

But, once you shut the coal plant down, the vast majority of the long term impact shuts down as well. Not so much with nukes. That stuff hangs around for a very long time and you have to manage it all along the way.

That's why the industry requires such extreme indemnities.

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moral_luck t1_j7jtvfj wrote

>the vast majority of the long term impact shuts down as well

Source? because I can find one that contradicts this.

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simcoder t1_j7ju8f2 wrote

Let me ask you this.

If we had to evacuate or abandon a major city because of a nuclear power plant accident, would you still think that nuclear power was worth it?

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moral_luck t1_j7jv00i wrote

You're asking airplanes vs cars here. And we know the answer to that, airplanes are vastly safer.

To answer your question directly. It depends. Basically what would the frequency of occurrence be and what are the alternatives?

With the information we have, yes, it is worth the risk. Why?

Nuclear is a better alternative in terms of externalized economic and health costs than what it would replace (it won't replace solar, wind or hyrdo).

Do you think we should continue to mine and burn coal while we transition to an entirely solar/hydro future? You really think coal is better than nuclear? Or do you think natural gas is better than either of them?

I am assuming you realize that an entirely solar/hyrdo/geothermal/wind electrical grid is not currently feasible. I am also assuming you also realize that is what we will and need to transition into completely in a few generations.

So the real question is, what is best gap filler for the next 50 to 100 years?

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simcoder t1_j7jv7xn wrote

Oh I'm not saying we should get rid of nuclear. And I think that nuclear is precisely that, a gap filler till we have something better.

But I also think the risk of having to abandon or evacuate a major city is enough to push nuclear over the edge to a "currently necessary 'evil'" as opposed to some techno silver bullet.

Plus managing the spent fuel for the next 10,000 years or so. That's going to hit your bottom line pretty hard without a govt stepping in and pushing that onto future generations to pay for.

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moral_luck t1_j7jvweg wrote

Great! so we're on the same page! Very few people who currently advocate for nuclear thinks it's the end all of electrical generation.

I think it's pretty clear to most people that we should be harnessing the huge fusion reactor in the middle of our solar system for the future use. Currently our issue is energy storage, i.e. batteries. Those will also have externalized costs.

Storage is obviously a long term issue. We have built a seed vault so it's not entirely outside our capability to handle.

But long story short, nuclear is a better option than coal ESPECIALLY when considering externalized costs.

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simcoder t1_j7jw6dj wrote

>But long story short, nuclear is a better option than coal ESPECIALLY when considering externalized costs.

I would say they are both bad in unique ways.

However low the risk, abandoning a major city is unimaginably bad. The spent fuel management will soak up money that could be spent on better options for 10,000 years or so after we've transitioned to something else.

And the carbon benefit is not a slam dunk. Particularly when you consider those externalized costs.

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moral_luck t1_j7jso9c wrote

Now you wanna talk.

How about the cost of the healthcare of all the children who get asthma? What about compensation for their years of lost labor? Coal can't compete if that were the case.

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moral_luck t1_j7jsgva wrote

Start reading about coal and health outcomes associated with childhood in certain radii of burning plants.

Or how water is polluted and diverted from agriculture.

Socialized costs are not exclusive to the nuclear industry (or indemnities).

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