Submitted by [deleted] t3_y1t6p0 in springfieldMO
wizard_of-loneliness t1_is0rbct wrote
Reply to comment by mangogetter in Is Vanlife safe in Springfield for a 21yoF? by [deleted]
>illegal even with the permission of the landowner.
Can you give me a source on that? The only law I can find that is close to what you're saying is the one passed earlier this year, banning sleeping unauthorized on state land. I've slept in parking garages and friends driveways absolutely no issue.
>and you're being hassled by the cops again.
I should've made my original point more clear. Getting hassled by the cops is a reality in vanlife that OP will deal with anywhere, not just Springfield. I'm sure OP is aware of this and does not need this whole sub nagging her about it rather than answering her question.
mangogetter t1_is0s8a4 wrote
No, the ordinance in question has been around 5+ years. You can probably find news articles about when we tried to get city council to suspend it in 2020 so people could camp during the pandemic while shelters were closed, and were told to bug off.
wizard_of-loneliness t1_is1bydm wrote
Hate to be this way, but the fact that you're still not sourcing your claims make me think you're deceptively phrasing the ordinance. I remember the discussion in 2020 but after combing through the official municipal code list, I'm only finding ordinances that support my claim. I only remember the discussion being about benches, parks, and public streets, which the ordinances back up:
Article IV div. 5 Sec. 78-187: Sleeping or resting on premises. No person shall sleep or rest in any area of a business or commercial establishment unless such area is designated for sleeping or resting, except with consent of the owner or proprietor of such premises. Nothing in this subsection shall apply to the regulation of motor vehicles on business premises.
Article IV div. 5 Sec. 78-188: Prohibited. No person, except the owner, tenant or other person in possession, or their invitees, shall remain upon or about any public or private parking lot, or upon any parking lot provided for the customers, business invitees or employees of any commercial or industrial establishment, at any time any such public or private parking lot shall be closed to use by the public or any such commercial or industrial lot shall be closed to use by customers, business invitees and employees.
Article VI div. 10 Sec 106-440: (a) No motor vehicle, motorcycle, trailer, or similar vehicle shall be left overnight in the city parking system, except in spaces specifically designated for overnight parking. Any vehicle left overnight outside of any such designated spaces will be subject to fine. (b) No person shall camp in any lot or garage which is a part of the city parking system
Article VI div. 10 Sec. 106-435: The Springfield Parking System Defined:
(a) The Springfield parking system means any public parking garage or access-controlled surface lot owned or controlled by the city and listed on a schedule on file in the office of the city clerk as provided for in subsection (b). An access-controlled facility is one in which ingress and egress is capable of being controlled through the use of parking attendants present at the time of use or violation, or automated parking equipment in place and available for use regardless of whether or not such equipment is operational and in actual use at the time of any act which would be a violation of this division. It shall be sufficient for purposes of control that the city has the right to manage or direct who may park within such garage or lot at any time during a 24-hour period.
(b) Upon the concurrence of the director of public works and the city manager, a schedule of those parking garages and access-controlled surface lots (facilities) owned or controlled by the city to which this division shall be applicable shall be filed with the city clerk, and upon the posting of permanent fixed signs indicating that the facility is a part of the "Springfield Parking System" and subject to the restrictions contained within the city codes and citing to this division, the provisions of this section shall take effect for anyone parking or using such lot or garage.
With the exception of the downtown area, it sounds like springfield is full of lots that someone could camp in with the owners permission. It also appears there's no legal risk whatsoever in sleeping in a lot or driveway where you have permission.
You connected many dots that weren't there to begin with
mangogetter t1_is1cgal wrote
I am one of Springfield's leading homelessness advocates, I have served on numerous task forces dealing with this issue, and I'm telling you, this is how it is. I don't have time to look up the letter of the law for you right now, but I can assure you this is the actual practice of the city.
wizard_of-loneliness t1_is1gc24 wrote
With all due respect, why should I believe you? I tried and tried to find the ordinance specifically banning sleeping in a car of a driveway or private lot with permission and I can't find it. You claim to not have time, yet you have time to send me a link that is almost entirely unrelated to the issue.
If you're as knowledgeable as you say you are, please link the source and prove me wrong. I will 100% accept that I'm wrong if you would just send me the proof.
mangogetter t1_is1lyra wrote
I don't care if you believe me. But I'm right.
wizard_of-loneliness t1_is2r2xt wrote
That's fine.
Just know that did my part while you refuse to do yours. I met my burden of proof, and i even tried to meet your burden of proof while you refused to do so. I did my research and literally can't find anything that backs up your claim, it's obvious that you had the same problem otherwise you would have linked the ordinance rather than an unrelated article.
I very very much respect homelessness advocates and the work that is done, thats why I was very open to hearing your side and being proven wrong. With that said, "one of springfields leading homelessness advocates" should be able to ACTUALLY ADVOCATE for the homeless. I, who has no history in homelessness advocacy or city ordinances, was able to navigate the related ordinances and send them to you pretty quickly. Not that it's hard, it was easy. You, one of springfields leading homelessness advocates who claim to already have knowledge of springfield ordinances, isn't able to do half that??? And yes, you had time to reply to my comments with multiple of your own, so you had time to look up the ordinance if you wanted to.
This is why I have absolutely 0 reason to believe you.
No hard feelings. Have a good day and keep fighting the good fight.
mangogetter t1_is1dhii wrote
wizard_of-loneliness t1_is1fupb wrote
Did you send me the wrong article? This is about setting up cold weather shelters for the winter, and the proposed idea is literally to set them up in the parking lots of willing churches and city owned parking lots. Nothing here says that there is an ordinance banning sleeping in your car in a private lot or driveway with permission.
mangogetter t1_is1kcgg wrote
The point is the city would not allow this, even on private (church) property. We asked, the answer was no. We asked for a car parking lot, and a tent area, and the answer was no, because of the anti-camping ordinance.
mangogetter t1_is1mq1a wrote
"As a result, we do not allow residential living in tents and under tarps on any private or municipal property throughout the community in an unregulated fashion," City Manager Jason Gage said in the letter.
This is also enforced against people sleeping in cars. You can fault my sources, but this is absolutely the policy of this city.
wizard_of-loneliness t1_is1orgp wrote
I'm not faulting your sources and you know that. I'm faulting your communication of your sources which has regularly been inconsistent with what the source actually says. You did it once again with this source. I can't read it bc of the pay wall, but tarps and tents were specifically cited in your quotes while you added "enforced against people sleeping in cars" at the end.
If there really was a city ordinance banning sleeping in cars in private lots and driveways like you claim, you would've found that by now rather than sending me news leader articles and misquoting them. You obviously care that I believe you to an extent, so send me the ordinance that you claim exists.
greenybeanybunny t1_is154jw wrote
LOLLLL YES! I am specifically asking about SAFTEY, not how to survive in a van, I've got that research done
Glittering-Plum7791 t1_is2zt80 wrote
Take a look at this article. https://www.safewise.com/blog/safest-college-towns-america/ for the population if Springfield, there is a ton of crime. Maybe just some food for thought. Good luck though!
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