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nleachdev t1_j4ad7gr wrote

Not to downplay how shitty this is but I'm not understanding how capitalism is to blame when it's the government creating a law targeted at government owned property

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andheinz t1_j4bclem wrote

Capitalism capitalizes on people for capital.

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emg381t t1_j4bhekk wrote

Core idea of capitalism is competition, meaning winners and losers. Core idea of socialism is sharing. Jesus would be a socialist.

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nleachdev t1_j4d7wrp wrote

I think you are confusing socialism with communism.

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emg381t t1_j4dmqde wrote

From each according to his ability. To each according to his needs. Jesus or Marx?

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nleachdev t1_j4dney5 wrote

That doesn't negate that you are confusing the two.

Per true Marxism, Socialism is simply the step between a capitalist and communist society.

If I'm wrong than so is Marx and Engels.

Socialism is the means of production being seized by the people with the help of the state/authority. Then, with dissolution of the state, socialism turns into communism.

Communism is, essentially, the doing away with the concept of property in its entirety. Socialism is just how to get from step A to step C. To say socialism is "sharing" is simply wrong at worst and a gross oversimplification at best.

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emg381t t1_j4h44r9 wrote

I am not confused and here is why: You are talking about socialism and communism (I have read the manifesto) as if the way that Engel and Marx envisioned it in a philosophical treatise is the way that it became manifest IRL. It isn't. Apologizing in advance for the lecture, but one begets the other.

Here, in this discussion of homelessness, when someone says that capitalism plays a roll, some attempt to rebut using ad hominem arguments: "If you don't like capitalism, you should go live in a socialist country and see how much you like it." I think its fair to say that what they are referring to is totalitarian states, think China. They conflate socialism as it exists in the real world with communism as it exists the real world, not in someone's idealized utopia (I mean, they entitled it a manifesto).

Social democracies in western Europe (and Canada and Japan) have embraced market economies in order to grow wealth, but then use socialist policies to distribute that wealth, through free health care, university education, child-care subsidies, pensions, etc. They are considered to be socialists due to these policies. Do they try to make a case for abolishing property? No. Are they opposed to using capitalism to create wealth? Again, no. I don't think anyone would say that the UK is communist with a straight face, or that the democratically elected government is at risk (if it is, it is not the kind of revolution that would be intended to result in a socialist state, but rather a fascist state with an autocratic ruler, just like the dream that exists here).

I'm not making a value judgement, just saying that conflating socialism with communism as we have come to know then in the real world is not a valid argument.

That said, there have been quite a few studies of homelessness and the causes are well known. Despite our government's faith in the ability of capitalism to solve our social problems, it has only exacerbated this problem (you can do your own research). To be more precise, capitalism did not cause homeless as others have pointed out. It may have made the problem worse, and it offers no solutions. These things can all be true at the same time.

I realize it is an oversimplification, but if one were to engage in the exercise of distilling the competing manifestos into single words, I challenge you to come up with more accurate words than competition and sharing, the fundamental mechanisms are work--again, capitalism appears best at creating wealth, so no value judgement from me.

Just like the causes of homelessness are well known, so are many of the remedies. Although not a Christian myself, I believe that if you embrace the dogma, you should do it completely and without hypocrisy. Jesus expelled the money changers from the temple. It is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven. Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me. Etc, etc. IMHO Jesus was just a dude, but a good one. Yes, if Jesus were around today, he would not be a capitalist; he would be a socialist, and one of color, and likely despised for advocating for the homeless. (I am aware that there are other new testament admonitions about rejecting welfare, etc. and in favor of personal responsibility, so please don't say that I am confused, I get it).

We have a long tradition in this country of embracing Christian ideals in talk, but then rejecting them in practice (read Robert Jones' book-himself a theologian-White Too Long). All I'm sayin' is that if people walked the walk, homelessness would still exist, but would be much less of a problem. All we need is the will.

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emg381t t1_j4h4qgj wrote

Who downvotes this? I mean, really? It's such a simple statement.

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Iron_Worker_ t1_j4c8l7z wrote

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-13/what-causes-homelessness-start-with-capitalism

Here is one of many articles on the subject. The availability of information is so high that there is literally no excuse for not being aware of things like this. Unless you're saying that you struggle to grasp the idea conceptually? Capitalism literally can't work without the threat of homelessness. Hope this helps.

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kjchoi55 t1_j4dak0d wrote

Seems unreasonable to think you can eliminate the threat of homelessness. That's like saying you can eliminate the threat of failure. You can't remove competition from life. Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other system has it not? Capitalism might not be perfect, but if a utopia is what you're looking for then you'll forever be lost.

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Iron_Worker_ t1_j4dc75v wrote

How do you equate homelessness with the threat of failure? People fail at all kinds of things all the time without becoming destitute. Eliminating the threat of homelessness is not only possible, it's necessary to a morally evolved society. It seems like you just never put any real thought into the issue and you're just blindly defending a system that not only doesn't serve you (unless you're rich), but enslaves you. Wake up man.

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kjchoi55 t1_j4dujax wrote

I'm not doing that. I'm saying the threat of homelessness will always exist. That doesn't mean we can't have resources in place to assist people in avoiding it which i absolutely think we should. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.

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Iron_Worker_ t1_j4dw9ks wrote

I don't understand why you think that concept is so axiomatic. If we evolve as a society and pool the resources that we already contribute to actually benefit the citizens and stop propping up corporate interests, no one would ever be homeless by choice. Much less would poverty be able to be used as a threat to force the working class into selling their labor for less than it's worth. I get the impression that you're not very well read on this subject and you've only ever known a single point of view. You should do some reading. It might expand your mind, and that's always a good thing.

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kjchoi55 t1_j4e20yu wrote

I don't love your assumptions about me but the advice is certainly good. I never said the resources we contribute should prop up corporate interests, if i implied that I didn't mean to.

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Iron_Worker_ t1_j4c8wxj wrote

Or maybe you don't understand the connection between right wing political ideology and capitalism? That's also an easy Google search.

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22TopShelf22 t1_j4b8ss5 wrote

Liberals need to argue like this... they lack arguments and this is the best they've got.

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00112358132135 t1_j4bmg6v wrote

This is literally what liberals have been saying for a long time. Like the past ten years has just been liberals saying literally “Jesus would have been socialist, republicans are hypocrites and their religious justifications don’t add up.

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nleachdev t1_j4belf2 wrote

Well ironically this isn't a great argument

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jmoney1587 t1_j4bg5x4 wrote

I'm sure you're wife not having sex with you and your shitty marriage is a liberals fault too.

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lenroy_jenkins t1_j4bye7j wrote

How conservative of you to not give a fuck about people after they are out of the womb.

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22TopShelf22 t1_j4ou8b3 wrote

I don't care about people that chose to live a homeless lifestyle and do not wish to change. I guess you need to regulate how they love too? You can't help those who.do not want to change

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