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EpsteinHealthPotion t1_jbtmged wrote

I'm not changing my pants simply because I pooped in them. The reasons are more complex than that. My pants are suddenly wet, stinky, and heavier. I'm putting pants on from the ground up that will be drier, lighter, and more odorless than ever before.

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Optimal-Grass-8989 t1_jbvfaxu wrote

I just hope we’ll be able to put the taskbar wherever we want to put it, rather than having it stuck at the bottom.

1

leaky_wand t1_jbtlk69 wrote

I could never get used to not simply looking down at the bottom of the screen and seeing all of my windows separated and given their own icon and a title. Grouping icons makes everything feel hidden and vague to me.

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nikanjX t1_jbuotjz wrote

But on an iPhone it’s one icon per app, so Microsoft has to also move into that direction. They keep on trying to make Windows into a tablet OS, ever since Windows 8

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Mront t1_jbvatob wrote

I mean, they had "one icon per app" grouping in Windows 7, but sure

7

HappyThumb55555 t1_jbvmwwg wrote

I use separate taskbar buttons for every open window every day on every desktop in win10 and server 2012. Did they screw that up in 11? I tried 11 for a few days and didn't like it.

Can you drag and drop stuff onto apps in the taskbar in win11? I seem to recall that being broken as well...

A hell of a work in progress.

They also need to strip out anything that restricts 11 running on "old" hardware.

Let me decide on my own security stance, thanks.

2

CocodaMonkey t1_jby0yyv wrote

They did but you could turn it off which most power users do. With Windows 11 so far they don't let you turn off grouping, it's mandatory.

1

leaky_wand t1_jbutz0p wrote

Shit will never catch on. Mac OS isn’t a mobile OS, why should Windows be?

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captnmr t1_jbvcskx wrote

>Mac OS isn’t a mobile OS

Have you seen the latest update? The settings app is basically the iOS settings and it sucks.

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Napoleon_Bonerparte t1_jbuv9hv wrote

MacOS and their mobile OS’s are more closely related than you think. iPadOS can run a lot of “desktop” apps natively now.

The merging of their desktop and mobile platform/ecosystems has been Apple’s vision for quite awhile now. That’s one of the reasons they pushed to design their own chips.

The difference between Apple and Microsoft in this particular area is that Apple has been doing a fantastic job at integration while Microsoft is leagues behind.

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maZZtar t1_jbyn9rd wrote

>The difference between Apple and Microsoft in this particular area is that Apple has been doing a fantastic job at integration while Microsoft is leagues behind.

What integration? Microsoft treats Windows as both desktop and a tablet OS. Their adopted mobile platform is Android which integrates excellently with Windows if you own their or Samsung's phone

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E_Snap t1_jbv1d5q wrote

Just wait, they’ll try to pull some extra bullshit like they did with the “peek” feature that makes all of your windows on every screen temporarily minimize while you’re “group diving” through the taskbar. It’s gonna piss off everyone in the live entertainment tech world so much. Again.

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Janooba t1_jbury67 wrote

For real! And everyone thinks I'm crazy for wanting that back

3

YouAreOnRedditNow t1_jbvdzul wrote

Not sure if you know this, but you can change the taskbar to look more like older versions of Windows.

It was step 1 for me when I got a new laptop recently, I can't get used to that weird middle-floating taskbar, and I really wish Microsoft would stop fixing things that aren't broken -.-'

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HappyThumb55555 t1_jbvn3lm wrote

I use separate taskbar buttons for every open window every day on every desktop in win10 and server 2012. Did they screw that up in 11? I tried 11 for a few days and didn't like it.

Can you drag and drop stuff onto apps in the taskbar in win11? I seem to recall that being broken as well...

A hell of a work in progress.

They also need to strip out anything that restricts 11 running on "old" hardware.

Let me decide on my own security stance, thanks.

0

VaelHeals t1_jbtftmf wrote

If a company ever has to "bring back" a feature that customers wanted and used, it screwed up. Period. Looking at you, Apple.

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CntrldChaos t1_jbtj83h wrote

Seems like you are not a developer and have no idea how software works.

−78

shiftyasluck t1_jbtjm66 wrote

Seems like you don’t care about how end users work.

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esperind t1_jbtrgdd wrote

jokes on you, I dont work, I procrastinate.

0

CntrldChaos t1_jbtjrr3 wrote

Going to point to my comment above to again reiterate how clear it is you don’t work I software.

−51

Crimbobimbobippitybo t1_jbtmcqs wrote

Your appeal to the authority of being a dev is not compelling, offer something more than that or jog off.

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CntrldChaos t1_jbtmwkt wrote

I’d bet every product you have purchased has followed this flow and likely has some feature someone wanted they didn’t have right away. Most software is free and many people upgraded windows for free or with their new computer. Microsoft prioritizes the most important feature for a release then enhances it constantly. They even have a forum where the more noise you make the higher up the priority list it can go.

−33

Loa_Sandal t1_jbtm7p2 wrote

Looks like you're confusing the customer for the developer. Who is actually buying and using the product?

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CntrldChaos t1_jbtmf8y wrote

This person said screwed up. I offer an explanation for how and why it can happen without screwing up and aligns exactly to what the article said.

−1

VaelHeals t1_jbtr63i wrote

The point that you're missing is where choosing to go in a direction that causes the loss of helpful features is a mistake to begin with.

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CntrldChaos t1_jbtuf9d wrote

Oh shit you are right. You solved it. Start a company asap and hire a bunch of devs to easily take over the software world.

−5

VaelHeals t1_jbu3lv7 wrote

They could have kept doing internal testing until the product's functionality was the same, but they chose to release it with missing features. That was a mistake. Was it a developer mistake? Probably not, but it WAS a mistake.

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VaelHeals t1_jbtjyah wrote

A developer has an idea. They or a hired programmer write a series of conditional instructions for a computer to carry out that best matches the desired functionality of the "program," and the developer iterates on those instructions until the resultant program reflects the developer's (or the customer's) vision for it.

Is that the gist of it?

9

CntrldChaos t1_jbtk6bp wrote

How do software product lifecycles work exactly? How is it possible for a company to both build something new and not have a feature they used to have? That’s the question related to the article and a key part of how software development works.

−13

VaelHeals t1_jbtlh12 wrote

I'd imagine there's a version in development at all times, for something as pervasive as windows.

It's possible that support for features may be dropped as technology changes, such as floppy disks going obsolete. It doesn't make sense, however, to drop a feature that is currently used and well-liked.

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CntrldChaos t1_jbtm6rd wrote

You know, rather than assume you could just ask how it’s possible.

There are times you rebuild something from scratch and old versions of code in that case don’t make sense. In some cases you can copy it over but in many cases it just wouldn’t make sense with the new structure of the project. You basically are rebuilding your product from scratch and prioritizing the most important features to recreate first. You then have to make it worth it for the customer so you build new features too. On the backlog you keep a list of things you likely want to bring back but are less pressing.

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asdaaaaaaaa t1_jbu5y7c wrote

You don't need to always work in an industry to see blatant mistakes and general trends. I can tell you that aircraft fires aren't good, and I don't need to be an engineer or pilot to say that. When a company makes a point to move away from something, then has to return to it after clearly having different plans it's safe to say they made a mistake. You don't bring stuff back from the dead because what you have currently is a better option.

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CntrldChaos t1_jbus7nm wrote

Understanding why a company does not have a feature at release is completely understandable if you work in the industry. If you are doing it day in and day out you will see what it takes and where you have to make sacrifices. While one feature is super important to you, it may be one of the least requested features by the majority of your users. Being a developer you absolutely 100% know the sacrifice you will make to get software out. Some software works well and is beneficial to many people without features and you then build out what the majority want.

0

asdaaaaaaaa t1_jbwz1tk wrote

Not always buddy. Some people work or understand multiple industries, life isn't a cartoon where each person understands one thing.

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-UltraAverageJoe- t1_jbu40d1 wrote

Do you? Developers rarely decide what features stay or go or come back again.

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CntrldChaos t1_jbusl8z wrote

A product owner and company does. As a developer or any of those roles you will understand what it means to hit MVP where you then build out what your users want. Building out all features to 100% is actually the exact model that failed day in and day out before the MVP and priority based model. You’d know that if you delivered software for a living

−2

AmalgamDragon t1_jbuu2e8 wrote

Microsoft/Windows isn't a startup. They don't need an MVP for their start menu. It's already been around for decades and been used by billions.

> Building out all features to 100% is actually the exact model that failed day in and day out before the MVP and priority based model. You’d know that if you delivered software for a living

I do. I also know you are dead wrong that there is a single best way to deliver software.

Enjoy all your well deserved downvotes.

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CntrldChaos t1_jbuuwq6 wrote

This entire chain of messages stemmed from a dude saying all software added later to a product was a failure. His assessment is that it’s never ok to release a product missing a feature and add it back in a later release. It’s flat out wrong. Companies have limited cycles to do work and they release it when it makes sense. Sometimes features that exist shouldn’t exist right away because it’s limited benefit. I’m literally saying it’s not one size fits all. Downvotes are people feeling like big company bad and I know what’s best.

−3

UrbanFlash t1_jbw3hei wrote

My downvote is for you completely misrepresenting what the other guy said.

5

CntrldChaos t1_jbxgslr wrote

>If a company ever has to "bring back" a feature that customers wanted and used, it screwed up. Period. Looking at you, Apple.

He said in no questionable terms that a company screwed up if they don’t release a feature that existed in a previous version of a product, and bring it back. I’m saying this happens for very good reasons. The team knows some users use it but they don’t feel it’s necessary for launch because the product they rebuilt is better than it was and is worth a “beta” launch as is. They throw the feature on the backlog and prioritize it accordingly. This happens on any project where you are rebuilding from the ground up.

Users of products don’t always equate to dollars. For that software to exist they need customers who spend money and will focus on features for those customers first. They will then launch when the features that will keep the customers who matter happy are done. Most people think of software as free overall and think of what they will do to said company, but in reality software from companies is built to make someone money in some manner. A user who pays nothing is entitled to nothing. Many companies bend over backwards for free loaders. That can work out but it can also drive your product down a road that prevents it from surviving as long as it should.

No one person can definitively say what is right or wrong for a team and what they are building. Even the people who ultimately make the calls are guessing a bit which path to take. I am pointing out very specifically that in some paths a team can build an existing feature later and it’s not a screw up of any kind. It was a well thought out choice of value to their overarching users and not the people who use the feature in a silo.

1

corut t1_jbv9b4u wrote

As a Product Owner, the concept of an MVP is a stupid. The only time it's of benefit is if there is no completion or existing product in the market. If there is, you're first release needs to at least match the features of the competition or the previous product.

Otherwise you have MVP, but it has no value.

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Sajun t1_jbwk8nh wrote

Seems like you are not a developer and have no idea how software works.

1

Extension-Stable-910 t1_jbtpq06 wrote

It's sad that you're being downvoted because you are absolutely correct. People don't generally have a concept of MVP (Minimum Viable Product).

My advice would be not to bother with these people, nothing you say will make any difference, they'd rather be mad at Microsoft.

This whole thread kind of reminds me of a scene in the Simpsons where they have principal Skinner tied to a post and about to light him on fire as he exclaims: "I'm telling you people! The Earth revolves around the sun!"

Also, downvoting me isn't going to make you any more right.

−20

Crimbobimbobippitybo t1_jbtq22v wrote

> People don't generally have a concept of MVP (Minimum Viable Product).

Ever since the first season of 'Silicon Valley' pretty much every idiot knows exactly what that is.

10

-UltraAverageJoe- t1_jbu53wb wrote

What they’re saying is that, in the eyes of the user (which many here are), Microsoft did not deliver the MVP. Maybe the MVP minus the task bar but not the MVP. MVP needs to hit the right marks to be considered “viable”.

For reference, I’m a product manager and develop MVPs and iterate on them. When a bunch of users aren’t happy with the MVP, it means I missed something. Because Microsoft added the taskbar in pretty quickly after release of 11, it looks like they also realized they should have had it for launch.

Edit: spelling

7

CntrldChaos t1_jbttbo4 wrote

It’s a technology subreddit. Fascinating to be honest.

1

UnExpertoEnLaMateria t1_jbth3fw wrote

So, the article says they didn't remove functionality from previous versions, because they started from scratch. So, the screw up was releasing the new-from-scratch Taskbar without finishing it. Got it!

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TheCh0rt t1_jbucqtv wrote

Hopefully I won’t have to click “More options” on the right click context menu before I can click Refresh. Sooooooo poorly thought out.

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MrChurro3164 t1_jbun1rp wrote

Through metric feedback they saw that the “more options” was heavily used, which means people love it! So the taskbar will now have a right click “more options” sub menu which will allow you to ungroup things! Every. Single. Time. To ensure a clean display! /s

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nikanjX t1_jbuozco wrote

You’re kidding but that’s entirely realistic, considering the dingbats running the design teams

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JPSWAG37 t1_jbvipsm wrote

I want them to change "More options" to "What you're actually looking for"

Windows 11 seems to serve as extra layers added on to an already functional operating system.

3

BroForceOne t1_jbu51f6 wrote

>In other words, Microsoft didn't remove anything from Windows 11. It started over.

The national anthem of the apologist junior product manager when their new thing can't achieve basic feature parity with the old thing.

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DeLiXxN2 t1_jbvau2v wrote

I love how they're removing important system settings to look cleaner on smaller devices, making you have to change stuff in the registry following some third party guide. Having to flip through 6 different menus since each only contains 4 settings to end up not finding what you want because its hidden under a random hyperlink at some obnoxious corner is great. Makes you really appreciate all the effort that went into spying on customer behavior in favor of adware improved uix.

10

guerrieredelumiere t1_jbwiebj wrote

Win11 is just so bad that my linux installation ended up being less tedious to handle on top of not going full Orwell on me. Was dual boot but I kind of realized its been months since I used my windows installation.

1

AtomicTardigrade t1_jbuki0p wrote

They are still bringing back the shit we had 30 years ago, but they removed it all 5 years ago because they are stupid and think we're gonna be praising them now for giving us all that shit back. The audacity of Microsoft...

9

Shyriath t1_jbv1k41 wrote

The Taskbar feature I want to know about is: if an open program is trying to get my attention, will the button on the taskbar actually start flashing on and off in bright orange so I can see it, like it did in Windows 10; or is it going to gently fade into a very slightly orange shade then gently fade out - like it does currently - so that it completely fails to draw my notice?

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ArcOnToActurus t1_jbv2tbs wrote

I just want to be able to lock the taskbar vertically on the right side like I do in Windows 10.

5

drekmonger t1_jbvmnm5 wrote

ExplorerPatcher is an open source project that does just that, plus it optionally reverses other wierd Win11 UI decisions. It really does make working in Win11 a much more pleasant experience. https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher

4

r3dk0w t1_jbubvi4 wrote

To be honest, I'm surprised there's not some kind of subscription service to get the features back.

Call it Windows 11 Classic, now with the classic features you all know and love.

4

No-Contract709 t1_jbv45fc wrote

Note to everyone. You can absolutely revert back to older versions of windows, and there are a bunch of Linux distros that look and feel like old windows.

4

poop-machine t1_jbvlgm6 wrote

Until they bring back vertical taskbars, no deal.

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[deleted] t1_jbvcg7h wrote

I hate windows so bloated and slow.

2

taz-nz t1_jbvf2d1 wrote

The lack of being able to move the taskbar to the top of the screen is basically the only thing stopping me updating from Win 10.

Having the taskbar at bottom of screen increases mouse travel way too much when switching apps. There is a 90% chance the first thing I need to click after switching apps is in the top third of the screen, having the taskbar at the bottom of the screen is just inefficient.

2

StatisticianKooky505 t1_jbx00a9 wrote

I recently rolled back to win 10, it’s far more stable and not such piece of shit like 11

2

Stan57 t1_jbuc45j wrote

I call BS, they could have said this from the start but they didn't. I move all the most used program icons/shortcuts to my taskbar because it leaves my display cleaner and easy to get at. The only icon i have on my desktop is the trash bin, it cant be moved that i have found anyways im on win10 and will switch to Linux before moving to 11

1

ve1h0 t1_jbx1tup wrote

What a horrible site. Ad-infested that you can't even properly scroll through it

1

peter_gibbones t1_jbx3lr2 wrote

I’m sorry, but what part of “we had to throw back in the thing we took away” isn’t acknowledging they messed up? Author is a weeb.

1

EntertainerOrk t1_jbz8z8d wrote

I'm running 10 and don't see a good reason to switch yet. I'm also running OpenShell because the Start Menu since about 8 or so is just hideous. The real settings are still in the control panel, not the "Settings", the layout of stock 10 Start Menu is just so awful. And there's ads! Ads in your operating system UI.

1

Thraes t1_jc2g7sw wrote

I was forced to install windows 11. Like it just started installing one day. Tried to cancel but everything I did when I booted the computer back up it would just start to install... and im not a technologically illiterate person... im familiar with using regedit to get what I want..

1

happy_snowy_owl t1_jbtphnu wrote

This article references power users....am I the only one who does everything with windows+q and typing what I need to do, or windows+x to get into any system menus?

−4

BroForceOne t1_jbu4h8d wrote

If Windows 11 requires Windows+Q to start type searching rather than just hitting the Windows key by itself like in Windows 10 that's a big fail.

9

DeathGPT t1_jbtqqto wrote

Yup it’s only you. You’re so special.

3

chisoph t1_jbtzrph wrote

Windows+q? Save yourself a keystroke by just pressing the windows key and start typing

EDIT: Wait does that still work on Windows 11? I haven't upgraded yet and don't plan to anytime soon

2