You must log in or register to comment.

goldfaux t1_jdckp9s wrote

Its no different then when Walmart spent billions to try to catch up with Amazon online sales. If you don't keep up and spend the money early, it becomes excessively more expensive to catch up.


Badfickle t1_jdcnit6 wrote

This is where they should have been 5-10 years ago. Let's hope they can catch up before its too late.


dont-YOLO-ragequit t1_jdetv4p wrote

This is exactly where they wanted to be.

10 years ago, Ford would have had to make a very different looking vehicle with unimpressive fuel range, and a push to have an infrastructure for electric charging.

Tesla managed to do all this and party tricks and Cellphone back and forth at the expense of build quality.

Now Ford and others manufacturers have most of the political backing and infrastructure to make better built car with price per volume and better manufacturing techniques inside a conventional looking vehicle.

The big manufacturers didn't want to fail such a niche plan, meanwhile, a Startup like Tesla had everychance of succeding or failing. And it succeeded.


Badfickle t1_jdf0eys wrote

>This is exactly where they wanted to be.

And that is why they are failing.

The Tesla build quality has improved considerably in the last few years. The Model 3 is now one of the most reliable EVs you can buy. The model Y has also improved greatly.

Where the other manufacturers are aspiring to in 3-5 years is where Tesla was 5 years ago. Toyota recently did a teardown of a model y and came to the conclusion that Tesla had superior manufacturing and that Toyota needs to completely rethink its process if wants to keep up.

If legacy doesn't get its act together and fast a bunch are going out of business.


dont-YOLO-ragequit t1_jdfj2kr wrote

>Ford Blue, the unit that sells internal combustion and gas-electric hybrid vehicles, made just over $10 billion before taxes during the last two years. Ford Pro, the commercial vehicle unit, made $5.9 billion during those years, the company said.

They litterally said they resplit their companies from regions to products to show how their bread an butter(the one with 20+ models is stil profitable while the one that is developing (the one with 3 models with a ton of R&D) is the one with debt. They still make 16bn on ICE cars and trucks while losing 3bn on models not even 2 years old.

If I'm reading between the lines, the division with all the growth is losing money as all the R&D is overhead cost and the sales are starting to return revenue.

Ford gets to tell their investors that they are making good money by putting all the rightful debt spendings on EVs while their earnings numbers are untouched.

Even in the report it says they expect EVs to drag on a short to mid term basis.


isayporschewrong t1_jdn0vtu wrote

> If legacy doesn't get its act together and fast a bunch are going out of business.

How exactly are they going to go out of business? Do you not understand how auto manufacturers make profit?


Badfickle t1_jdn9d6m wrote

It is remarkably simple. Sales of your profitable ICE cars implode while you are still unable to mass produce EVs for a profit. Something which only Telsa and BYD have managed so far.

Not everyone is going to successfully make the transition. There will be bankruptcies, government bailouts and or mergers along the way.


isayporschewrong t1_jdnalnt wrote

I guess what I'm struggling with here is the "sales of your profitable ICE cars implode"... I might be missing some legislation that's been passed recently, but why is this going to happen?


Badfickle t1_jdnv0dr wrote

As EV prices continue to come down it will no longer make economic sense for consumers to purchase ICE vehicles.


HotHamwMustard t1_jdcx0qj wrote

I don’t care if they fail personally. Ford is an awful company.


Badfickle t1_jdd1du2 wrote

Understandable. I just feel the more competition in the EV space the better.


Western-Image7125 t1_jdd28jy wrote

If not Ford I hope there’s plenty more. I just hate Tesla as a company


[deleted] t1_jdddh9m wrote



Western-Image7125 t1_jdde095 wrote

Ok yeah sure I don’t know much about the topic cuz I don’t have an EV but wanna get one someday. It’s just what I hear from people. What brands do you recommend?


[deleted] t1_jddf8vt wrote



c0mad0r t1_jddohvu wrote

> I really love the EV6 for the price though, it's the value pick.

I sincerely love my 2022 EV6 Wind that I got last June. It's intuitive, easy to use, gets a solid 270+ miles of city driving per charge, drives like a car or an EV depending on the setting and can outrun any rice burner or lamborghini when needed (I live in SoCal and have done this to a Tesla Model S, Subaru WRX, my neighbors' Lotus and a maserati granturismo).

My only issues with it thus far are:

  • Small rear view window makes it hard to see behind you at times
  • The toggle button between environment controls and media controls is annoying, but voice commands help
  • The steering wheel buttons like "Mode" or "star" programmable buttons don't always stay and reset to factory defaults
  • The HUD doesn't have programmability
  • It's impossible to disable the warning system that beeps when there's a car in your blindspot or you're changing lanes without using your blinker

Superficial stuff mostly. I've taken my vehicle in once to the dealership so far... to get a nitrogen refill on the tires. That's it.


Badfickle t1_jde5945 wrote

I actually went to go buy an EV6 last summer. The test drive was great and I was ready. Then the stealer wanted $11k over msrp. NOPE.

The stealership was even even trying to sell a low mileage used EV6 for $11k over MSRP of new and pretended that they didn't know a used car didn't qualify for the $7500 tax credit.


Badfickle t1_jde4qze wrote

Who in your mind has caught up to Tesla in pure EV?


Ancient_Persimmon t1_jdd8owl wrote

The fact that they've spun their EV operations to its own unit bodes well for them. This will help focus their efforts and hopefully avoid falling into bad habits of reusing too many legacy components/architecture, which seems to have kneecapped some of the other OEMs.

We're waiting to see their first fully dedicated EV, but the Mach-E and F-150L are really good considering they're parts bin cars made to get experience with EVs.

Burning billions is never fun, but it's got to be done sooner than later if they want to stay competitive.


RevolutionaryFox9613 t1_jdcsyi7 wrote

lol this is the same sad ass bullshit they pulled in the 90’s whining about how Toyota and Honda were kicking their ass


littleMAS t1_jdde0lr wrote

Startups are juvenile businesses. When a major corporation tries to claim anything 'startup' it is like a fifty-year-old trying to sneak into a high school as a 17-year-old student.


forksporkspoon t1_jddcgz6 wrote

Didn't they buy a company that "specializes" in vehicle IoT? I remember getting recruiter emails for this company whose major claim to fame was that they were a Ford subsidiary focused on vehicle IoT.


desidude52 t1_jdfbcoi wrote

I hear billions of excuses.


rmullig2 t1_jdfxi4j wrote

It really should be seen as a money pit.


outragedUSAcitizen t1_jdcoxvc wrote

They lost billions because the both EV's are overpriced.


Badfickle t1_jdd1z7v wrote

That's not actually the problem. The problem is that their manufacturing techniques are out dated and bureaucratic and their costs are too high.


Sorge74 t1_jde55xw wrote

I'm not knowledgeable about all this, but since Ford EVs are constantly sold out, The price can't be too high?


Waaypoint t1_jdhfapj wrote

EVs are overpriced !

They are sold out.

Did you hear they are raising their prices even higher !

They are sold out.

The tax credit doesn't even get them into the price range of ICE cars !

They are sold out.

They are losing BILLIONS because no one wants them !

They are sold out.

They won't work for MY road trip !

They are sold out.

Squeaky clown shoes sounds...


Sorge74 t1_jdhfwld wrote

Basically, the top comment in this thread, they lost money because overpriced? If I'm on a 6 months waiting list, kind of seems like they are underpriced, which could be a real reason you lose money on something.


Waaypoint t1_jdhm69l wrote

Yep, and the production cost goes down as soon as you use enough of the more expensive infrastructure to build units; set-up, development, purchasing new machines, building new processes have a steeper initial cost than you would pay to maintain their operation. It is a whole new platform with entirely new equipment and processes.

Most of the objections against EVs are not based on how they are performing in the market, their desirability, and the ROI over time.


thats-fucked_up t1_jdcpknd wrote

They're chasing a moving target. Let's see if they can catch them. The big difference is that Ford is distracted by its money makers and Tesla is not. (See Saturn.) Tesla is the only one making a profit, and by the time Ford is building 600,000 units, Tesla will be building two to four million, plus directly threatening every American car makers' cash cow by building their Cybertruck.


i_am_covered t1_jdcr07k wrote

If you think the cyber truck is a threat to the F150 I’m not sure what to tell you.


Ancient_Persimmon t1_jdd7xkq wrote

What makes you think it wouldn't be?


peakzorro t1_jddmo7r wrote

Because the F-150 is available now, and the truck is nowhere to be found.


Bensemus t1_jddutcl wrote

The F-150 is in production but at a very low volume. Ford isn't really breaking away from Tesla unless they get the Lighting up to real production numbers.


Ancient_Persimmon t1_jddnmtu wrote

Well it's not in production at the moment. What about in July when it is?

The ~15k Lightnings delivered so far is a good start, but 3 million pickups are sold every year in the US.


Badfickle t1_jddv2v0 wrote

The cybertruck will still be profitable before the lightning is. That's not to say the lightning isn't a good truck. It's just the reality of where the companies are right now.


Badfickle t1_jdcv7iv wrote

The cyber truck does have 1.5 million pre-orders. The demand is there. It depends mostly on how many they can produce next year.


i_am_covered t1_jdcvm4d wrote

Sure it did. At $100 a pop when it was a $40k truck and the only EV option. Call me when they sell one.


BeyoncesmiddIefinger t1_jdem6rn wrote

You do realize the lightning also went up like $16,000 in price in just a few months, right? Lucid, rivian, ford, kia, Hyundai, all raising prices this is nothing new. As much as the lightning has jacked up it’s price I still see overwhelming positive reviews about it. I think you’re overestimating how much a cybertruck price increase will actually hurt it’s demand. What are the other EV trucks to even choose from in the price range?


i_am_covered t1_jdenzzs wrote

Yeah I’m sure being the same price as a normal F150 and having zero competition had nothing to do with it. It’s also not coming out so it’s utterly irrelevant also.


cliffski t1_jdf4199 wrote

so the texas factory and the thousands of employees working on it now, and the twin 9 thousand ton gigapresses are all imaginary right? People spun the same bullshit about the model 3, saying it would never get built. Turns out...they build quite a few of them.


i_am_covered t1_jdf87wt wrote

Yep. It’ll be pushed back again and again and again and eventually they’ll release something that looks nothing like the cyber truck called the Model Tee and it’ll be fine. The cyber truck, like the roadster, will be lost to history.


Bensemus t1_jdit1dd wrote

Tesla has zero history of doing this. You have nothing to base your claim on.


i_am_covered t1_jditqv5 wrote

They have zero history of launching a truck also. I’m sure it’ll come. All in good time. A year here, three years there.


Badfickle t1_jdcxolq wrote

That's true. They will undoubtedly raise the price considerably to start with and not even offer the cheapest version. They can do that because the demand is high and they will be supply constrained at first and can make more profit off the higher end versions. Prices could be in the 80k-90k range and I would not be at all surprised to see them reach 30-40% margins once they hit volume production.


dead_ed t1_jddczlw wrote

they're not preorders. I have one and I do not at all consider it a 'preorder'.


SeaworthinessLeft88 t1_jdcrovr wrote

Ah yes, the elusive cybertruck. Announced 4 years ago and discussed conceptually for 10 years, yet still not in production. Just like “full self driving”, it’s always due to arrive within the next year.


Ancient_Persimmon t1_jdd7v48 wrote

Expect a delivery event July 1st for their 20th anniversary.

It's not as if we haven't seen multitudes of development vehicles and the factory build out.


Badfickle t1_jdd25uk wrote

You are absolutely, factually correct except you forgot that TESLA BAD.


BreadfruitOk5341 t1_jdd394t wrote

All evs will fail and pleased for that


Badfickle t1_jdd5d4i wrote

lol. Yeah. Who needs any of them there fancy a u t o m o b i l e s when a horse and buggy is just fine.


Pandamonial t1_jdfa6jg wrote

I just free myself from the burdens of the flesh and do spirit teleportation, duh.