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cartsucks t1_jec35ck wrote

What an idiotic “article”, it’s just more propaganda from corporate real estate companies about “collaboration” and other buzz words that an office does not actually do.

I’m tired of the non stop “remote work is over” trend of articles that are being fed from billionaires


ElysiumSprouts t1_jec7yu8 wrote

>propaganda from corporate real estate companies

Nailed it! There's office space that needs renting!


Socially8roken t1_jecf9ko wrote

They use it as collateral. If office demand fall so do property values. If property values decline they lose their credit limit and lending limits.


Epyr t1_jecghyn wrote

The bigger thing for companies is that many of them get grants and tax breaks from cities to have their offices there. The companies don't want to lose that money. Cities do it as they want the downtown traffic as it boosts local businesses like coffee shops and restaurants.


GearhedMG t1_jeckuq8 wrote

My counter argument to that is people like me who dont live near their job and now my money is going to the local businesses that I live near.


Epyr t1_jed2qri wrote

Yes, but small cities want businesses to have people draw money to them. How many small town die or become impoverished when companies leave en mass? It's not a small number and this trend will likely not help


SatansHRManager t1_jedxb2j wrote

Opposite is true: People moved to small towns and exurbs BECAUSE they could work from home permanently.

Forcing them to commute again will lead some of those people to move back from those small towns and exurbs (i.e. more flight) and force the ones that don't want to uproot their families twice in three years for one company to find other jobs.


Epyr t1_jef2wab wrote

In some cases yes, in most cases no. The number of people who prefer big cities vastly outweighs the number of people who prefer small cities. That doesn't mean some people don't like small cities, but it does mean small to medium sized cities don't massively benefit from having businesses running from their downtowns


Sudden-Ad-1217 t1_jecknev wrote

It ain’t gonna rent itself! /s. ChatGPT has entered the chat……


Flyfly-2022 t1_jecsydc wrote

So true. They’re pushing it so hard because they all have money in commercial mortgage backed securities and they lose control over employees’ time which gives them opportunity to shop around for better deals.


SatansHRManager t1_jedx539 wrote

The good news is these assholes are starting to go bankrupt, so their supply of funds to buy sponsored propaganda is going to start drying up, and soon.


RandomName01 t1_jedrt8r wrote

Fuck real estate companies and fuck PR masking as journalism, but I’m my experience working in the same space for a couple of days a week does legitimately increase collaboration. It’s not the be all end all of course, but it’s certainly a factor.


3vi1 t1_jecdcb7 wrote

"Work in the office" is just the manager's way of saying they don't understand what you do and have no way to measure your output unless they can constantly look over at your desk and make sure you're not happy.

I've been in IT for 30+ years. Many of those years I was working alone, remoted into routers and switches overseas from my desk, all day long.

When the pandemic hit, and we were told to work from home, I busted my ass to get *more* done. I wanted to show them it could work.

It actually turned out to be easy. I had a 1.75 hour commute each day, so without that I just worked an extra hour a day- not even on purpose most days. It was no skin off my nose and I was still free from work earlier than I would have been. I got a huge bonus, and a promotion.

If I have to go back in the office every single day - my company will just lose 300+ hours of extra work, from a person with decades of experience in my field, each year. The days I go into the office are the least productive days for my organization.


EternalNY1 t1_jecwmbt wrote

>I've been in IT for 30+ years.

Same here, and remote for over a decade, far before the pandemic.

These return-to-office policies are especially absurd in IT, as literally everything I do is logged.

Every line of code I check in, pull request I complete, comment I make in our item tracker, timestamps on when I log into servers, exactly what I'm doing on said servers, discussions in Teams and Slack, emails ... all day long, every day.

If they think I'm sitting around watching Netflix on the couch all day, they can simply look in our DevOps system and see all the lines of code I've comitted.

Makes no sense.


G3sch4n t1_jegoyn3 wrote

The only somewhat understandable argument is that sometimes great ideas are based on random exchanges between people from different projects that happen during coffee or lunch breaks, but if teams/slack/zoom are used effectively, you can mimick that with group calls.

Specifically gamers tend to communicate that way in tools like discord and teamspeak.

Many of the bigger mmo rpg guilds are basically structured like companies. Remote communication works just fine for them.


Jorycle t1_jed962j wrote

>"Work in the office" is just the manager's way of saying they don't understand what you do and have no way to measure your output unless they can constantly look over at your desk and make sure you're not happy.

More like, it's the manager's way of saying "my manager is starting to notice my job serves no purpose when I can't roam the halls like a freak, badgering employees and picking up buzzwords to drop into conversations, and his manager is starting to notice, too."


ethereal3xp OP t1_ject4od wrote

>"Work in the office" is just the manager's way of saying they don't understand what you do and have no way to measure your output unless they can constantly look over at your desk and make sure you're not happy.

This is sad if true.... get happy off the misery of others

Thats really...


jcpmojo t1_jec5acg wrote

While I agree that new hires benefit greatly from being in the office, learning from coworkers, and seeing how things get done first hand, once they're trained up and can stand on their own, there's no need to have them in the office full time. And it makes no sense to require tenured employees to come into the office at all, if they're not involved in training a new hire.


ChibiSailorMercury t1_jec5wux wrote

I was hired for a new job during the pandemic. All the training was done from home. I had an appointed mentor who showed me the ropes and then to whom I could ask questions.

It seriously wasn't that bad.

(My point being there are even some jobs where going to the office is not needed to learn how to complete your tasks and so on)


HanaBothWays t1_jec7g7g wrote

It does take some effort but you can develop new hire onboarding, training, and mentorship programs that work in a remote setting and/or where everyone isn’t co-located. You have to have a checklist with timelines and specific things to fill out. My company did it.


despitegirls t1_jecd4lw wrote

I've been working with HR to do the same over the past eight months. The companies that went through the trouble to figure out remote onboarding, work, and offboarding will be better off than those that didn't. Even if we don't get another pandemic, it provides them more options in hiring.


Jorycle t1_jed9gm9 wrote

Yeah, it's 100% dependent on the company. Some are great at it, others suck. The only real difference is that it is a lot easier for a company to suck at it in remote work, because you're sort of on an island and need people to opt-in to helping you out. In an office, you can go pound on someone's door if it really comes down to it. Seems like it's easier and makes everyone happier if a company just tries to not suck at it.


squeevey t1_jec60ne wrote

I go into the office 5 days a week because I hate working from home. Hardly anyone is at the office, but whatever, i come home and it feels great to have my own space.


KeaboUltra t1_jecj1ng wrote

I think that really depends on the field. I WFH and of course, It's computer based. When I worked in IT there was literally nothing taught hands on to me. Just videos and a guy that really sucked at communicating my job expectations, Within days I was thrown live into the mix of things I didn't even understand, and I made it out after 2 years with a ton of knowledge sure, but It was honestly knowledge I always had, I was being paid entry/min level wage for level 2 work.

Now, at my remote job, They actually taught us. despite being remote, we could still help out or have hands on experience with something. At least what I do. I feel like I've been working here for my whole life, in a good way, because the work feels like the type of person I am. I actually know things and help out and am informative, and looking to improve way more than I did in a corporate IT cubicle, where I didn't fully understand how anything worked or why we were even doing what we we're doing considering my position didn't really even exist, I would usually finish most of my work in 2-6 hours then be told to do things that weren't in my description, or sit around passing the time in pure white fluorescent light.. Anything I learned could have been taught over the phone or in a remote session.


SAAARGE t1_jecfbf2 wrote

So I'm actually in that exact situation; I was hired about 10 months ago and have basically learned everything I need to for my job. I'm curious about what you think as far as the when and how of bringing up that I'd like to go remote?


psyon t1_jeczihs wrote

How are they going to learn from coworkers if all the coworkers that know what they are doing are working from home?


crawling-alreadygirl t1_jeeswvw wrote

They can still communicate. I've trained and mentored remote employees quite effectively.


psyon t1_jeeu1gr wrote

Then why have anyone goto the office if they are going to be taught remotely?


johnjohn4011 t1_jecd3ft wrote

If you consider that probably more than half of many CEO's jobs consists of micromanaging workers, along with their need for paid minions to stroke their egos & give them the attention that they would never get otherwise..... it starts to make a lot of sense from a certain perspective.


thatsnot_kawaii_bro t1_jeez1tk wrote

My problem with that though is (at least with a lot of the big names) the teams are too big that there is a chance they are distributed significantly. Even as a new hire you can end up in a situation where you are in one location and your seniors are in a completely different state/country.

That happened previously at one job and it was not a fun experience, especially since I kept being told how important it was to go to office to learn. Meanwhile all my team/sister-team/step-team members are in another state/country.


sooprvylyn t1_jec6d7h wrote

Yeah, fuck our evolution as social collaborative animals.


therapist122 t1_jecepp7 wrote

Fuck you pay me if that's the case. Is it in my job description to train new hires, or do I do that to be nice? You want me to be a babysitter too, that's another 100k a year minimum. And even that is only enough that I might think about it


Am__I__Sam t1_jeccopl wrote

You say that like the ancient ancestors we evolved from had the ability to communicate and collaborate damn near instantaneously, face-to-face, from literally the opposite side of the planet. If they had, your definition of collaborative would probably be different

The only difference for me between working in the office and working from home is that in between tasks in the office, I have to pretend to be busy, when at home I can walk away for 15 minutes and take care of something so I won't have to later. The people I go to with questions aren't even in my office to begin with so why fucking bother.


crawling-alreadygirl t1_jeet2r7 wrote

You can socialize and collaborate outside work, you know. It actually gets a lot easier when you're not wasting all your time going into a job.


ElysiumSprouts t1_jec7sho wrote

The thing is, despite the big name tech companies right- sizing their workforce, the tech industry is still booming. Remote work is an important employment perk for many people and there are still plenty of places that offer it.


uacabaca t1_jed4vq4 wrote

Right sizing? You mean "firing"?


ElysiumSprouts t1_jed62og wrote

What I meant is "right-sizing" The big tech companies over-hired in order to starve smaller companies of the skilled workers they needed. They brought on employees who simply were not needed and sat un-utilized to monopolize the work force. Reading the news, people got the impression that these big tech companies needed mass layoffs to downsize into effectiveness, but that's not entirely correct.

But sure, they fired workers and it harmed real people.


uacabaca t1_jed74jg wrote

The vast majority of big tech are severely under-staffed, with a lot of activities put on hold because of lack of personel, and engineers working well above 8 hrs per day, just to make things move. So it's not "right sizing", it's "firing" to meet the quarterly financial goals that look good for their stock value.


UNSECURE_ACCOUNT t1_jeebu6l wrote

If that was true why are perfectly profitable companies still firing people?

Because those employees cost more than they generate because they're not being used productively.


uacabaca t1_jeecmld wrote

Mmm no. Rates are increasing and so cost of money. This means less "free" money to borrow for growth, so less growth. When you foresee less growth your shareholders will demand job cuts, otherwise the stock would tank. Then you start cutting projects and firing people. The ones that remain are overburdened by the tasks that were done by the ones that were fired. So they have to work more, under the pressure of being fired like their former colleagues. In other words, workers are paying for those stocks.

How you all are believing the narrative that they are "trimming fat" is beyond me. Google, for example, made profits into the billions (1 billion can feed 10000 families for a year) and still fired.


AlwaysRighteous t1_jecctui wrote


The cities that we have made dangerous, dirty and undesirable need you workers to come back into the office buildings so that we can tax you to death the way we used to.

The corporate property market needs to be rescued, so we are sponsoring article after article of propaganda explaining why you all need to come back to the office suddenly after 3 years of working fine remotely...



wambulancer t1_jecf5mm wrote

I'm not pulling any hard data except my ass but remote work has bought my major US city (Atlanta) some serious years that are no doubt going to be squandered from a looming traffic apocalypse; streets were increasingly impassable, choked up nightmares shortly before the pandemic and it's still not quite yet to where it was before. Remote work is to thank, no doubt.


spisHjerner t1_jectv71 wrote

We've purchased all these buildings with borrowed money. We need X% of you to occupy them, or else we have to sell them.

Sell them.


ethereal3xp OP t1_jecv1pz wrote

But why?

Workers coming into the office.... how does it affect borrowed money?

Banks dont care if the office space is occupied or not. You are not getting a lower interest rate by occupying to max capacity


spisHjerner t1_jecvdsc wrote

City/State subsidies. Occupied buildings mean surrounding stores/eateries have business. Vacant buildings is not part of that agreement. Time is up for the COVID-induced pause on the contractual agreements.


ethereal3xp OP t1_jecwelo wrote

Your response is fine..

But .. productivity and mental health suffers for many

I would say.... once a week is fine. And if others WANT to come in to the office 5 days a week. They can.


spisHjerner t1_jecxqif wrote

I agree.

For some, they've restructured to no longer pay for child care (upwards of $40K/year) and commute (upwards of $2000/year). It's not just "work in the office." It's "you've priced us out of the city and you don't pay us enough to support the commute and the cost of childcare."

For some, they've restructured to become more productive at home > office. Less distractions, and better work/life balance (e.g., working out, preparing food at home). Back-to-office brings up anxiety, and disrupts that new healthy flow-state.

For me, I like working in the office. I like the 20-30 min. commute time to prepare for work and wind down from work mentally. I also value the separation of work and home. I tend to overwork at home because it's always there. I also believe it's safer to work on certain projects in-office rather than at-home, for various reasons. I also understand I am in the minority.

So when companies say and do things like "we're not giving you raises/cost-of-living salary adjustments, and you need to come in to work or you're fired," it's hard to make sense of it. Because we know it's more about the company keeping its real estate than us being productive workers.

There are notable exceptions, for sure. This is a gross simplification of the work climate.


rcanhestro t1_jeee4op wrote

it's mostly that these companies spent millions (or even billions in Apple's case) in making their super futuristic offices, and now no one wants to be in them.

so they need to justify that investment by having people go back there.


socokid t1_jec9dfy wrote

> “It’s a good deal for companies who don’t want to deal with the backlash and consequences that come with layoffs but need to cut costs somewhere,” she explains.


"It's great that we make it so undesirable that people just quit, saving us from having to fire them, which is harrrd.

Now, back to wasting a couple of hours a day commuting away from your familyu, wearing out your car and wasting gas, just to sit in an office so you can Teams video your coworkers from your cube."


If you run a company like this, good luck! My company and my wife's companies hire from all over the country. Not only are the prospects much better (much wider talent pool), but the idea that we can't communicate in a virtual office in 2023 is so ridiculous I wouldn't even know where to start.

They'll just go back to having an office the size of a gas station for a 300 plus person organization.


Staple_Sauce t1_jech4r2 wrote

100%. The best engineers I've worked with know their worth and they won't settle for companies that are so out of touch.


tinwhistler t1_ject7tq wrote

I usually get several recruiter emails a day. If I see the words "onsite" or "hybrid" anywhere in the email at first glance, I hit delete and don't even bother looking at what they're offering.


TheJadedSF t1_jecbkac wrote

Oh it's the weekly article on this nonsense..


Hakuknowsmyname t1_jecfenr wrote

Smart companies are selling their offices for what they can get before the market for office space crashes.

Convert them to apartments! PLEASE, we need apartments in Denver. Rents are recockulous.


zertoman t1_jedjgkb wrote

You can’t really, it’s cheaper to level the buildings and build apartments than repurpose an office building. Centralized plumbing and havac, general layout make it not cost effective.


TreeHawkFeather t1_jecrinn wrote

If anyone needed more evidence about how your media is controlled.


moderatevalue7 t1_jed11fz wrote

How to disenfranchise 90% of your work force in 1 policy document or less..


macgruff t1_jed0kfn wrote

All these corporate spinsters trying resolve issues of their own making. For many, working from home makes fiscal sense for all. There is no definitive proof that commuting, sitting in an office, and then having to again clog freeways, pollute the air and ruin our own work-life balance, has any positive effect on productivity. In fact, many of us have proven exactly the opposite argument; many of us are MORE productive working from home.

Facilities managers were warned (anecdotally by me to our Facilities Managers, and) en masse, for multitudes of workers, management, senior management and even CEOs, that if they did not plan for increased vacancies, they would be left holding bag on poorly negotiated contracts, commercial real estate mortgages and more often, leasing, of office space.

“Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part”.

The rest, like the authors of these puff pieces, are merely shills for property managers who are losing out to those who DID plan well enough to expect a reduction of the in-person workforce. Enough! of these puff pieces… they’re just lies, contorted stories and innuendo designed to reset us all back into our Kafka-esque cubicle spaces.

Do not fall for this bullshit.

*Understand, this is not to say that many, many “jobs” are not only fit, but are better suited for in-person office work, but that should not preclude the millions and millions of jobs that have no reason to be forced back into cubicles.


nadine258 t1_jecl8df wrote

My company downsized their hq, made the new office space hoteling style so no place to even put your work in a file or have a permanent seat. If we had 1400 people pre Covid in the office they only got enough space for 800. I went in this week and I was one of four people. And I was on teams calls all day. Other than, yes, my colleague and I could chat about some work stuff, it was a total waste of our time. It’s insane to think they’re going to trim around and spend more money to bring us all back to a corporate office.


ethereal3xp OP t1_jecqpme wrote

>. I went in this week and I was one of four people. And I was on teams calls all day.

Does this make sense?

This can't be real life...


DevAway22314 t1_jeeyded wrote

I have a coworker required to go into the office. He is the only person on our team of 8 that has to. He was hired before COVID, so was never labelled "full remote". He also is the only one close enough to be hit with the RTO policy

He has to do remote work all day (our systems are all SaaS or in a data center elsewhere). All his meetings are on Teams, with everyone else being remote or in another office

It was never about productivity. It's just layoffs by another name


OG_LiLi t1_jecwjt3 wrote

I’ve worked at home for 12 years. I’d like to think my personal anecdotes and bias count for something here! /s


Toolazytocreate t1_jedidtl wrote

Many who have left the big city don't plan on going back. It's not just the issues with homelessness or traffic; it's the housing conditions for workers. To live in the city, you usually need to rent an apartment with a lease. But with layoffs rampant in the industry, committing to a year-long lease is risky. It's no wonder why some are hesitant to return to such an unstable employment situation, opting instead to work remotely.


crawling-alreadygirl t1_jeesc9t wrote

Hell no. I've been remote since before the pandemic, and I'll never take a full time in-person job again. This is pure propaganda.


_WirthsLaw_ t1_jed9duy wrote

Chatgpt would have written a better article


madrodgerflynn t1_jecbbtm wrote

How about they start paying for our commutes. Not only is it dangerous to drive in general, but why should I have to drive 30 mins to the office when I could be doing my job from home? Why do they need us in the office so bad? Use the buildings for something else and charge rent if they are so concerned with their real estate.


D_Doggo t1_jegvrui wrote

In the Netherlands you get 0.21 euro per km travelled to work.


Jorycle t1_jeda7z9 wrote

Oh man, 30 minutes would be nice. I don't think a 30 minute commute exists in Atlanta, especially if you're actually going into Atlanta. Remote work actually made Atlanta-based tech companies 1000% more accessible for employees because fuck spending 3 hours a day driving in and out of work.

Side note, I immediately think poorly of any tech company that chooses to put their office IN Atlanta instead of the outer metro. Most tech workers are in the suburbs and the drive. fucking. sucks. My rage is boiling just thinking about these fucksticks trying to drive people back into the office BUT PUTTING THEIR OFFICE IN FUCKING ATLANTA.


ZaibatsuPrime t1_jedpy9e wrote

Unfortunately, if all the big corporations start requiring return to office mandates, then you will see this trend more often because they have the ability to offer the most jobs and higher pay. I don’t see it ever returning to 5 days a week, but can definitely see a hybrid environment. It also depends on what your role is. People in IT, who have no client-facing responsibilities probably can stay fully remote buy for example in legal, lawyers will require face-time


LetMePushTheButton t1_jeev7an wrote

I started the job I’m in now as a remote worker. I got highest marks on my performance review.

I’m more productive and less stressed. Of course middle managers are scared. Anything to justify their unnecessary role.


Yard-of-Bricks1911 t1_jeex192 wrote

Until enough steps are taken to walk back the labor market into the hands of employers - they will continue to struggle finding talent to fill positions without remote work being an option.

Even then they're going to struggle, as everyone who wants to work or has to work for the most part has a job. Even with these layoffs. The reductions are almost all in the big tech sector which is but a portion of the total technology sector.

Feb labor numbers were pretty revealing there.

From an unemployment perspective the US over the last couple months has been where it was under Trump pre-COVID. And yes that's both the headline number and the often cited "real unemployment" number which is always higher than the headline number.

But yea this is all a real estate play. It's crazy too how hard it's being used to push the agenda. Must protect corp real estate! haha nope, no we don't.


DevAway22314 t1_jeexmvo wrote

> Benioff said that he “knows empirically” that new hires perform better “if they’re in the office, meeting people, being onboarded, being trained”

And of course no one required him to provide this empirical evidence that he totally has, but just doesn't share because reasons


ImaginationBrief7786 t1_jeh3ibj wrote

It seems the truth is gradually being revealed. Initially, CEOs misled us by claiming that their intention was to foster team spirit. Then, they stated it was about preserving their work culture. They further deceived us by asserting that productivity was declining when it wasn't. Had they been honest from the outset, we might have been more accepting of their requests to return to the office. The real issue is their struggle with investors due to depreciating real estate assets as buildings remain underutilized. Their lack of transparency and honesty has fueled resistance to returning to the office. Embracing remote work is the modern approach to conducting business, and it's high time they accept this reality.


telepather t1_jeh4jpu wrote

Anyone who thought remote work was a long-term trend wasn't very smart. Businesses want to control employees - they want to give them all a similar setting and measure who works well and who does not - they want to monitor employees.


thurstkiller t1_jecl1rl wrote

Really can’t believe everyone thinks work from home is the standard that most people have. I’ve had to come into the office with no work from home option for over 2 years at this point


Spec_GTI t1_jeensnj wrote

From the point of view of someone employed in manufacturing, it's hilarious to read about people freak out about the remote chance they have to go into the office once or twice a week.


ethereal3xp OP t1_jec2tcd wrote

>More companies are backtracking on earlier pledges to let employees work from home on a full or part-time basis. 

Across industries, major corporations including Disney, Twitter and Starbucks are requiring employees to spend more time at the office. 

While half of employers say flexible work arrangements have worked well for their companies, 33% who planned to adopt a permanent virtual or hybrid model have changed their minds from a year ago, according to a January 2023 report from Monster. 

Marc Benioff, CEO of Salesforce, is the latest leader to appear to reverse course after embracing remote work and criticizing return-to-office mandates. 

Salesforce was among the first tech companies to tell employees they didn’t have to come back to the office, declaring that “the 9-to-5 workday is dead” when it announced a permanent flexible working model in 2021.

Earlier this month, however, Benioff said that he “knows empirically” that new hires perform better “if they’re in the office, meeting people, being onboarded, being trained” on the “On With Kara Swisher” podcast. 

Benioff’s comments come amid new reports that Salesforce will require employees to up their in-office time. 

“Our hybrid approach empowers leaders to make decisions for their teams about how and where they work,” a Salesforce spokesperson said in a statement.

As recession fears loom and layoffs mount, the power pendulum is swinging back towards bosses — and more companies could seize on the moment to get their employees back to the office. 

>‘The bosses are back in charge’

Anxious about high inflation and mass job cuts, workers’ confidence is wavering — even though the labor market remains incredibly tight, with almost 1.9 unfilled positions for every jobseeker.

Meanwhile, managers who felt they had less leverage during the prolonged hiring shortage now feel they have more power in negotiations with employees, especially when it comes to office attendance, says Kathy Kacher, president of Career/Life Alliance Services. Kacher has been advising companies on their return-to-office plans. 

“When executives were scrambling to retain workers, they were afraid to ask workers to come back to the office and lose even more talent, because many workers have made their distaste for the office very clear,” she explains.

Kacher continues: “Now, faced with this shaky economy, I think organizations are going, ‘Okay, good. The bosses are back in charge. Now we can say what we really want.’” 

For some companies, remote work accommodations offered at the start of the Covid-19 pandemic were emergency measures that executives don’t believe are sustainable for the long term, says Susan Vroman, a lecturer in management at Bentley University. 

Now that the pandemic is entering its endemic phase, more managers are comfortable asking people to resume their pre-pandemic commutes.

“If executives like having people in the office, it feels like the safest time in three years to communicate that,” Vroman adds. “And if leaders at big companies are adjusting their return to office policies, others will see that and think, ‘I can do the same.’”


bkrluffy t1_jecy2bo wrote

Work from office gang 💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻