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Koujinkamu t1_jddweu5 wrote

If you fire them they definitely won't return to office


[deleted] t1_jdesru2 wrote



keetboy t1_jdferd4 wrote

Still true as of late 2022 iirc anecdotally. Company tried to verify a friend’s employment history and everything about their senior software engineer was changed to associate with a level similar to the sales associate at the Apple Store.


Long_Cut5163 t1_jdfibj2 wrote

Well, even if that's true, as a former Apple engineer, all you need to have is a coworker reference that can vouch for you. I'm not sure why another company would be able to search through an employee database of a different company in the first place.


When I was working there you had to be on the company vpn to search the employee database but it's been a few years so I don't know what's changed.


keetboy t1_jdfiz0j wrote

I mean the person thankfully passed the tech interviews and had good references. It’s just a shitty practice


Super_Automatic t1_jdg1vz4 wrote

That fine line of being willing to accept the loss of some. Where's the line between some and too many? Such are the games of capitalism.


Shadeauxmarie t1_jdimccd wrote

“You won’t come back to the office? Fine, you CAN’T come back to the office!”


1GenericUsername99 t1_jdda4qw wrote

Gotta love the USA, one of the worst countries in the world for workers rights…


grimace24 t1_jddj2by wrote

It’s called lobbying. The lobbyists pump insane amounts of money to make sure workers rights are not protected. Congress loves their money.


Fukouka_Jings t1_jde14f6 wrote

And so many voters allow gerrymandering and keep voting the same people in


rogless t1_jde6v9g wrote

A significant portion of the voting population will vote against their own interests as long as their preferred politician caters to their identity politics.


demonoid_admin t1_jdiev6r wrote

Imagine generating profit for a company only for them to spend that profit on making your life worse.


Linkbelt1234 t1_jdkmdw8 wrote

Okay, how to we ~lobby~, eerr I mean bribe the other way? Ya know, in the interest of fairness of some bullshit


iceleel t1_jddau4t wrote

That's why I get triggered anytime someone talks shit about European Union. Your country is trash and these corporations can get away with just about anything.


E_Snap t1_jddsywx wrote

Sorry, that’s ridiculous. You should have no problem taking responsibility for the shitty parts of your countries, and the same should apply to those of us in the US. When it comes to politics, rubbing your tummy doesn’t necessarily mean you have an excuse to stop patting your head.


snowleopardx64 t1_jdgrjpj wrote

as an European, te European Union IS FUCKING SHIT in a shitload of ways.
Not all of it, but a lot of it.
Stop thinking the grass is greener, it literally is not.


scylla t1_jddqixk wrote

Those Apple employees ( not executives )in the Bay Area are making over 200,000 USD in total compensation, many make a lot more.


disgruntled_pie t1_jddrwzq wrote

Stop trying to pit labor against labor.


scylla t1_jde8nx9 wrote

Do you actually work in the tech industry?


disgruntled_pie t1_jde8qbh wrote

Yes, and I have for a long while. Why?


scylla t1_jde9jxp wrote

Did you not see the immense wealth generated by technology for the last 30 years. You can argue about the share that went to employees but at this scale you’re quibbling about how to fairly slice a pie when 10 new ones are being cranked out of the oven.

It’s similar to how the Soviet Union fell. They were equally miserable standing in line for bread but they literally abandoned their decades-old way of life when it was impossible to censor images of overflowing Western supermarkets.


disgruntled_pie t1_jdea8lx wrote

Labor fighting against labor is why we keep fucking losing. This is pure distraction.

Labor needs to all be on the same side regardless of race, religion, sex, etc. These idiotic minor differences do nothing to change the fact that you and I have a lot more common interests than either of us do with Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk. The fact that I write code for a living does nothing to change that.


scylla t1_jdeb4rp wrote

Have to agree to disagree. I have friends whose houses were built on options from Amazon and Tesla. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest that Jeff and Elon got Billions out of the same rise in share price. Envy is a poor substitute for actual material benefit.


disgruntled_pie t1_jdeba2p wrote

I honestly have no idea what your point is. You’ve completely lost me.


scylla t1_jdecjcq wrote

My point is that instead of raging at Apple ( or other Tech companies) for changing the WFH policies , maybe see all the other benefits they’re giving. The main benefit is a massive paycheck. If that’s not worth it, find another company that offers WFH or employs you in your preferred location. Related , I honestly don’t think that a college-educated staff engineer making 250k+ has the same interests and can be lumped into the same ‘Labor’ bucket as the guy picking Strawberries in Salinas.


disgruntled_pie t1_jdee9pd wrote

Ah, I see. You’re one of those petite bourgeoise who thinks that you’re somehow special. We’re not. The fact that I’m a high income earning software developer involved a series of lucky breaks (and admittedly many years of very hard work). But if we replayed my life with a different random seed then it’s just as likely that I never would have made it into this field.

We’re just people. You’re not special, and I’m not special. We are fundamentally still part of the labor class because we exchange our labor for money. If your labor stops being useful then you will be discarded.

Our labor laws give far too much power to the capital class, and you’re deluded if you think they care about you. Rights for workers benefit us just like everyone else.

You can tell yourself that you’re somehow part of the elite because you work in tech, and you can pretend that this means you’re somehow part of the aristocracy if that makes you feel special. But you’re not. You’re just like everyone else. The problem is that you think that’s an insult.


scylla t1_jdeev1v wrote

They certainly don’t care about me. I certainly don’t care about them.

However, at times our interests align. Silicon Valley does this via stock options ( previously never given to the rank and file) and the results over the last 30 years has been remarkable.


disgruntled_pie t1_jdeheaz wrote

I say this as someone who has made a fair bit of money on stock options; they are generally a scam. I’ve seen plenty of people sell their company for options only for the value of the stock to remain below the strike price for years. I’ve known people who ended up selling their company to get a desk job they hated in exchange for options that were literally worthless.

Companies don’t do stock options because they’re a great idea for workers. They do them because they’re complex enough that most people don’t understand them and it sounds like a lot of money, when it might actually end up being nothing depending on the performance of the company’s stock.

Have you ever asked C-suite executives at a startup to show you their cap table when they start talking about their “generous” options? They usually shut up in a hurry when they realize that you actually understand what they’re talking about.

Your interests don’t align with theirs. They’ve pulled you in by stroking your ego and convincing you that they’ve given you something special. They haven’t. They gave you something of highly variable value because they figured you were too dumb to understand its worth.

When considering offers from companies I consider stock options to be worthless, because statistically speaking that’s usually what they are.


scalyblue t1_jde6r1i wrote

Rent on a shitty studio apartment in Cupertino is like 2200/mo at the low end, you can double or even triple that if you want multiple bedrooms for a family, and that’s not counting utilities or necessitates.

200 grand is not a poverty wage by any definition but there are many places in the US where it is also not a lot, especially when rent can easily be more than half your take home

So why not let these people move to towns that are cheaper to live in if they can completely and efficiently do their jobs from home with an occasional commute


Amadacius t1_jdfeuuk wrote

Oh god I hope not. That's not very much in that labor market.


ASEdouard t1_jdf4hsw wrote

Also in the almost very top when it comes to wages, but health insurance and time off wise, it majorly sucks compared to most developed countries.


psyon t1_jdevt9f wrote

Why do people keep moving here then? Even europeans relocate to the US for work.


Amadacius t1_jdffk4x wrote

I don't think that's a great way to compare countries. Half the time the US has negative migration with Mexico. Meaning more people are leaving US for Mexico than vice versa. Does that make Mexico better than the US?


edeepee t1_jdh6idd wrote

Many people move back to Mexico because life here kinda sucks and opportunities are scant if you don’t speak English. And some Americans move to Mexico because it’s cheaper, warmer, and maybe they have family.

Comparing which country is “better” overall is difficult and also pointless because it depends on the priorities of the person who cares about that answer.


snowleopardx64 t1_jdgrngu wrote

do come with the stats, this smells like bs.


Amadacius t1_jdk17dw wrote

Can't fuckers google anything anymore? Its not faster or easier for me to google it for you.

Its not consistent which direction the net migration is, which is why I say "half the time".


snowleopardx64 t1_jdqrmuh wrote

dude, shut the fuck up and get better sources.

"Due to the way the Mexican government sources report data, this analysis uses several overlapping time periods: 2005-2010, for example, and 2009-2014. In addition, migration from Mexico in this analysis includes only those who were born there, while migration to Mexico includes those born in Mexico, the U.S., and elsewhere."

This shit is fucking bullshit and you know it. I m pretty sure this takes into account 0 of those who get in illegaly.


Skreat t1_jdf9k5w wrote

Employers can dictate if you need to show up to work or not I don’t know how this is a workers rights issue.


DevAway22314 t1_jdhmwvy wrote

US workers also work very long hours. OECD data shows the average worker works 10-20% more hours in a year than the average Japanese worker


BuzzBadpants t1_jde2gvs wrote

Apple is one of the few big tech companies that has managed to avoid layoffs since the pandemic. I wonder if fortunes are changing for them.


Azzymaster t1_jde9wda wrote

Probably making unpopular decisions in the hope people quit instead


[deleted] t1_jdeu1i7 wrote



rabidjellybean t1_jdexvmi wrote

Stop doing the extra work. They can't afford to fire you. If they did, it was a burning ship destined to crash.


[deleted] t1_jdf02e3 wrote



zUdio t1_jdf1cky wrote

Just work as long as you feel is good days’ work and then stop. If deadlines are missed, they’re missed. Don’t fret. If they fire you, they fire you, but it sounds like they really need you, otherwise you wouldn’t have all this work.

Don’t be rude about it and don’t say “no” ever. Just say, “yes, I can have it done by [whenever you can have it done by] and leave it at that. If they say, “that’s not good enough”, repeat yourself: “I understand; I can definitely get it to you by [repeat time period].

Don’t internalize the stress. You’re looking to “get everything done” instead of “working a 40-50”. Do the latter; stop worrying about the former. You will miss deadlines. It happens. Just be positive and never say, “no”; always make it positive sounding.


[deleted] t1_jdf1ocz wrote



zUdio t1_jdf2ifd wrote

I was in the same place as you recently until this just clicked for me. We enjoy knocking shit off the list and doing things for the team. We’re good at it and the team knows it. A lot of times the team and middle managers are also inundated with crazy CEOs spouting ambitious visions and shit that they now have to provide a plan for, so they go dump a bunch of half assed ideas on “doer” teams who now have to make sense of the gobbledegook so middle manager cna make their PowerPoint. Society is manic af right now.


AlanzAlda t1_jdgrrj8 wrote

Can confirm, my "doers" get a lot more work than the ones that need prodding and hand holding. As a manager I have limited time too. In the end though, I make sure they are rewarded with bonuses and promotions, but yeah, this is a thing.


Sorry_Decision_2459 t1_jdg0roh wrote

yeah you gotta remember, your health and well being is more important than their bottom line. When it’s lunchtime, you’re on lunch, you’re not helping the company with work. When it’s time to clock out, you don’t contemplate working overtime to finish projects, you clock out, go home, stop thinking about work, and leave it until tomorrow. Overtime pay is so heavily taxed anyway, it’s pretty much not worth it unless you’re hitting a certain threshold and stopping.

You aren’t their property, know your limits, and prioritize your life, time, and health first. When bosses start to realize employees post-pandemic care more about their time and health than their employers’ pockets and we won’t take their shit, they’ll eithe rhave to buckle, or learn to fully automate everytjing from the bottom up and eliminate the need for employees.


A_Contemplative_Puma t1_jdh21wu wrote

Overtime pay is taxed like every other additional dollar you earn, at your marginal income tax rate. It’s withheld at a higher rate, but you’d get that back at the end of the year come tax day.


sfmasterpiece t1_jdeufkw wrote

You might be able to start a union if enough of your coworkers realize they're a good idea.


roflcopter44444 t1_jdewytj wrote

If you voluntarily leave they don't owe you severance. Its in their best interest to get people to quit vs firing them.


Vthttps t1_jdf8a08 wrote

Good resources will quit and bad resources stay. Not a great move


do_you_even_ship_bro t1_jde6bq3 wrote

Layoffs are short term stock gain, long term losses. You lose talent, have to pay tons of severance, and lots of efficiency loses due to distractions.


BuzzBadpants t1_jdel67g wrote

Is it really long term losses though? We’ve witnessed how companies were raising prices for goods because of supply chain issues, and then the supply chain is solved but the companies didn’t lower prices because they were finding they could make more money by producing fewer widgets.

If your goal as CEO is to make fewer widgets at a high markup, you don’t need as many employees


Amadacius t1_jdfg0ry wrote

That's just price discovery. But long term their goal is to make and sell more widgets at the higher markup.

Generally companies are expected to grow every single year. Whats your growth plan? How does firing employees help?


Powerlevel-9000 t1_jdf3tw1 wrote

I got downvoted when I said this before. Short term boost for the stock. But costs to rehire people are crazy. It could cost 6 figures to hire and train a knowledge worker.


Amadacius t1_jdfgd9r wrote

Its not even really a short term boost for the stock. Layoffs are seen as a massive red flag for the stock and news of them is usually followed by a drop in stock price.

That could be counteracted by funneling money to shareholders (dividends or buybacks), but since layoffs are expensive, you don't actually have more money to funnel to shareholders. You have to pay a ton of severance, and you will need the liquidity in a few months when you rehire anyway.


belleri7 t1_jdeprrg wrote

Depends on who you're firing haha. You can't assume 100% of employees are good at their job and mass layoffs are a good way to get rid of the not so stellar workers.


0pimo t1_jdefum8 wrote

I don't think this is about that.

They built a gorgeous office purpose built for people to bump into each other at random to collaborate.

Fine to disagree with their philosophy, but if they're paying you to do a job and expect you to be in the office and you say "no" then don't expect to keep your job. You're basically telling Apple that you aren't a good cultural fit for the company.

I think some roles can be remote, but I'm also a firm believer that people being in the office leads to better team work and innovation. There have been plenty of times in my life where I've struck up a conversation with someone outside of my circle and it ended up with something great. Had I been remote, it may not have occured to me to talk to that person because other than seeing them in an org chart, I may not even know they exist.


mailslot t1_jdeld5l wrote

That office is more of a showroom than where actual work gets done. Most of the important projects are built in generic offices with cubicles & fluorescent lights from the 1980s. Apple employees that are privileged enough to work on secret projects, get to work even even more drab conditions. No doughnut office for them.


rayinreverse t1_jdewsd3 wrote

I did some projects (I’m in HVAC) at a few of these Apple sites. Just random brown buildings scattered throughout San Jose. Seemed odd considering the size of their HQ.


NoIncrease299 t1_jdf9ncl wrote

Yup. I interviewed at Apple about 10 years ago (or so - the donut was still under construction). Was all excited to visit Infinite Loop ... only to spend my day in some nondescript, beige, Initech-like building in Sunnyvale. Which is where I'd have been had gotten the gig.

Which I didn't. Wasn't all that mad about it TBH. REALLY didn't wanna move up there.


thalientvor t1_jdepk8y wrote

So what company are you a middle manager at? Out of curiosity.


0pimo t1_jdeqc1f wrote

I work in logistics and manufacturing, so me and my entire team have to show up to the office anyways to do actual physical work.

Even when I was in engineering and managing a global team I still went into the office and walked the production floor.


zUdio t1_jdf1kf3 wrote

> people being in the office leads to better team work and innovation

Not when you force people to be there and they know they they have the backs of their 29,999 peers; this is how you get your company sabotaged.... work slowwwww. Mess things up. Oopsies! Guess office work isn’t as efficient and now things are broken. Shucks.


GoNinjaGoNinjaGo69 t1_jdf69he wrote

your whole reply is based on a 1% thing that happened once in your life, lol. what a joke.


Squibbles01 t1_jdf6avm wrote

Yeah but when you get long covid from work Apple will drop you, and then your career is over.


jared555 t1_jdel6bq wrote

I think some of that could be recreated by having "for fun" discord/teams/slack channels. Maybe throw in some company sponsored game servers or something.

Of course some managers would have to ruin it though. "You must share between 2 and 4 pet pictures a week, spend 1 hour exactly in the open voice channels and place/destroy a minimum of 10,000 blocks on minecraft a month."


dislikes_redditors t1_jdelx8h wrote

imo being on slack or teams is a big distraction compared to being in the office


[deleted] t1_jdf9fgh wrote



jared555 t1_jdfq1yx wrote

I meant you could recreate some of the "in person collaboration" crap by actually encouraging people to communicate while working from home.


ortho_engineer t1_jdfz2uy wrote

How do you know how to recreate some of the in person collaboration if you are not seeing it yourself?

I have a lot of engineers reporting up through me that started their academic, and now professional careers post-covid. We are all still "partially remote", and will be for the foreseeable future - we still try to come in on Wednesdays for those of us that enjoy interacting with another adult live and in person.

In summer 2021 I was in office looking at (blue) prints in a common area, everyone for the most part was still working from home, and I saw a feature callout that seemed way too bogus/weird to be coming from the lead design engineer, so right there I picked up the phone and conference-called the lead engineer and hashed it out - to the conclusion that yeah it is a weird way of controlling things, but its nuances actually work better than the alternatives.

It wasn't until a bit after hanging up and going on with my business, that I realized one of my fresh college grads was sitting in a cubicle just next to the area I was sitting in... and while he has never mentioned it, that was likely the very first time in his professional life that he heard two senior level engineers parse through a difference of opinions toward a successful conclusion.

I'm a Director now days, and I see the difference between "pre-covid" employees and "post-covid" employees grow every single day, and it concerns me - and not from an "I'm their boss" perspective, but rather, from the perspective someone that genuinely loves the art of engineering. I am very open with my team that what I want is to progress our craft, and that our company has already outlasted 3 generations of employees and will long outlast us - how how we move the field of engineering forward will last forever... Melodramatic, I know.

So much engineering, and just corporate live in general, is learned through osmosis. You learn how to lead by watching others lead. You learn how to navigate healthy conflict (which at the core is what engineering is - we progress our craft by being proven wrong) by watching others model the appropriate behavior live and in-person. When we first went home for Covid March 2020, I missed being able to just speak questions out loud to my cube mates so much that a few other engineers and I would call each other at ~8:30 in the morning and mute ourselves, and whenever one of us had a question we'd just unmute and ask, have a short discourse, and then back to mute and eventually end our ~8 hour phone call at the end of the work day.

I don't see our post-covid people having buddies like that anymore. My cross-functional peers and I are having to teach and mentor concepts that were never even topics of discussion pre-covid. These fresh engineers are so smart, but they are lost - like a baby animal without a parent to imprint.


Neverlookedthisgood t1_jdg7bf3 wrote

I agree with some points of your assessment. I was training some people pre-Covid, and things certainly changed after Covid wfh. You know what though, I also changed. Instead of getting up and writing on a whiteboard we hold Teams sessions, where I share my screen, or I produce how-to videos, or sometimes I have someone else share their screen while I instruct. Just because something was always done a certain way doesn’t mean that’s the way. We as mentors have to learn to adapt, and be inclusive in a virtual environment. Now instead of training one person at a time at their desk when they have a question, I reach the whole team if I need. While there are certain circumstances like you mentioned, that would not be an issue if you were discussing this in a group manner.


jasonw754 t1_jdfercu wrote

If I meet someone outside my circle in the office, I have to put on all the technical filters or else the conversation isn’t going to last very long. Can’t really innovate, but there is a value in those people knowing that I exist.

I’m actually in a pretty ideal scenario right now. I work in the office a few days of the week, and yeah, there’s usually office socializing that cuts into my productivity, but all the people that need to ask me for stuff are mostly remote so I still get the benefit of asynchronous communication instead of getting pulled out of ‘the zone’ all day long.


tacobelle685 t1_jdentdu wrote

I’ve heard they’ve been secretly doing quiet layoffs (or redundancy in positions on product team), but they’ve been under the radar


grimace24 t1_jdditoi wrote

Employees: We did our jobs for three years remote/hybrid. What do we get?

Apple: To come back to the office.

Employees: Surprised Pikachu face.


TheJadedSF t1_jddmul8 wrote

Idk I love WFH for most jobs but apple's software has gotten buggy and flatlined as hell, I have to wonder if WFH had any impact on that end


grimace24 t1_jddoyvh wrote

>apple's software has gotten buggy

Always has been...


jtmarshiii t1_jddzkcy wrote

I still have nightmares about iTunes and that question that popped up which if you clicked the wrong answer you’d end up deleting all you music and podcasts!


Linkbelt1234 t1_jdkkluh wrote

I found out about this the hardway. Only apple anything I've ever used shit on me. Fuck apple


rondonjon t1_jddb2pb wrote

When you build an office like that you gotta put it to use.


Cariboudjan t1_jde8nxa wrote

No joke. There's two big reasons why these companies are obsessed with returning to the office.

1 - The managers are dinosaurs. They do not understand and do not want to understand the potential of emerging technologies for enhancing WFH efficiency, such as Augmented Reality. They barely understand Zoom.
2 - They invested a lot into office real estate and if working from home becomes the new normal, it has no resale value.

This has nothing to do with productivity and everything to do with stubbornness, incompetency, and greed.

Soon enough new emerging companies will be started by younger generations that will embrace new technology and WFH will be the normal. Older companies that choose to not adapt will lose their talent, and either change their thinking or slowly fade into financial obscurity.


Beerificus t1_jdeddzv wrote

>They invested a lot into office real estate and if working from home becomes the new normal, it has no resale value.

This is the big one that I see. I work with several tech companies throughout Nor. Cal. The ones that have big, grand offices (and are also not able to downsize/sell/lease) are all the one hammering on employees to return to work. Other companies that have many offices, so combo buildings are the ones reducing their real-estate footprints and promoting hybrid. It's becoming a "we're screwed, so you're also screwed." Whereas others are, "hell yea, lets shed some buildings, save costs."


baldthrowaway4u t1_jdeqdg5 wrote

Yes a big tech company like apple is run by people who barely understand zoom


Im-relatively-happy t1_jdfb1tu wrote

To be fair though, those “dinosaurs” have done some pretty impressive things. Their techniques must mean something. We will always work for ‘the man’. It’s a tough pill to swallow but if we don’t like it we can leave.


Amadacius t1_jdfgnt2 wrote

The managers have done impressive things? Like what?


GimmeShockTreatment t1_jdgkf50 wrote

Please tell me how AR has WFH applications


Cariboudjan t1_jdm8per wrote

Found the dinosaur


GimmeShockTreatment t1_jdmn7il wrote

Just explain it to me. I’m happy to learn. I know exactly what AR is by the way. But not seeing what it adds to a work environment at this time.


Cariboudjan t1_jdne29l wrote

A control room or security control operator is able to see hundreds of virtual screens monitoring equipment and sensors without the need of a single monitor. Screens are therefor mobile and operator can work in any environment.

People hundreds of miles apart can collaborate on the same task as if in the same room. Meetings can be had from anywhere. People can stand up and draw on a whiteboard, or manipulate a 3D model.

Instructors, teachers, even healthcare can be done remotely to some extent. Combined with advancements in Lidar, two or more people can exist inside a reproduction of the host's environment, allowing them to assist or consult in real world problems, such as structural failures, electrical or plumbing problems without needing to leave their house. They can in a way teleport from environment to environment all over the world, ending the need to physically travel somewhere to advise on a project.

Not all jobs can be done remotely - I'd wager less than 20% of jobs can be done this way. But that 20% is a 20% reduction in traffic on the road every morning, 20% reduction in transportation greenhouse gases from cars and planes, and the cost of real estate in previously over-congested areas of a city will go down as the demand for this space extends out into rural areas, where rural area property values will increase.


GimmeShockTreatment t1_jdno545 wrote

But these are all future theoretical applications right? Are any of these possible without spending huge amounts of money? My whole point is that current WFH applications work well enough. A company could spend tons of money to get an extra tiny bit of production but I’m not sure there’s evidence that it’s worth it. Making economical decisions doesn’t make someone a dinosaur lol. I work in tech btw so I’m not completely behind the times.


Cariboudjan t1_jdnw7uu wrote

Uh. These applications would save millions of dollars each year by not having to provide office space, purchase monitors or monitor mounting hardware, desks, chairs, coffee, bathrooms, toilet paper, parking space, heat, electricity... The list goes on and on.

The thing is a lot of these ESTABLISHED businesses have already invested in the office space and are inclined to use it. New businesses that are not yet established would prefer not to invest in office space as a cost-saving measure. All of this futuristic hardware is cheaper than the cost of property taxes on office space for a single year. Do you think a start-up is going to invest millions of dollars in downtown office space when they can accomplish the same productivity by investing thousands in hardware?


GimmeShockTreatment t1_jdo4egs wrote

No but the cheapest option is to work from home with zoom. It works fairly well. The type of technology you’re suggesting might make sense in niche scenarios but ultimately seems like it has a low cost to benefit ratio.

I can’t speak specifically to the security guard angle of your point. Maybe you’re correct but again that’s niche in the grand scale of jobs that can be WFH.


TheJadedSF t1_jddmml1 wrote

We built an expensive spaceship. We want our aliens working in it damn it!


Wherewithall8878 t1_jddrusa wrote

3x a week. Not 2. Not 4. Every week.

Clearly nothing arbitrary about that. /s


woody-99 t1_jdepy9w wrote

Makes me laugh a little bit every time I see one of these conversations discussing how bad it is to have to go back to the office.

A few years ago, the same conversations were about how awful it was going to be to have to work from home.
Reference: I worked from home for my entire long career.
Not everyone can self-manage themselves, and others suffer because of it.


dungone t1_jdg9v1h wrote

You should look into the inflation that's happened since a few years ago. Housing prices up, car prices up, everything is more expensive now. The last thing worker want to do is spend thousands of dollars commuting just to kiss their boss's ass in person.


Super_Automatic t1_jdgbwmy wrote

Working from home was awesome for like 3 years. I loved it. I felt like I won some sort pandemic lottery.

Now in it's 4th year, I'm dying to go back. Socializing with people from behind screens (no one even turns their camera on!) and owning equipment you can't hold or interface with, it's really lost its charm. Humans weren't meant to never leave their own house. We are social animals. I think this will have very long lasting negative effects, but I don't think there's a good path back because it's always all or nothing. It works when everyone is in the office, it works when everyone is at home, but it's really weird when it's everyone's choice on any given day.

I used to think WFH was a blessing, but now I think it's turning out to be a curse.


do_you_even_ship_bro t1_jdggnp9 wrote

> Now in it's 4th year, I'm dying to go back. Socializing with people from behind screens (no one even turns their camera on!) and owning equipment you can't hold or interface with, it's really lost its charm.

I think people are having graduation glasses. everyone starts going back to the office 5 days a week and people will realize it wasn't as great as they remember...


Super_Automatic t1_jdgkv52 wrote

Entirely possible. I was in the office for 9 years prior to 2020, and like I said - I was super happy to leave it behind.


do_you_even_ship_bro t1_jdgn6c6 wrote

In a thread I saw someone say they were looking forward to everyone coming back to the office. But people pointed out traffic would be worse, the office would be loud, and other general annoyances. I’ve been mixed since it started and I can say when I start missing one reality hits and I realize I don’t. Home is just better for a lot of reasons, but for me it’s mostly sleeping in. And traffic just sucks.


Super_Automatic t1_jdgnw8k wrote

There is a weird aspect of the human brain that we tend to forget minor nuisances. That doesn't take away from them sucking in the moment, but I commuted for 9 years and I can't recall any one specific commute, in the same way that I can't recall any one specific diaper I changed for my kids (and there were hundreds).

I think we gave up an experience which is better remembered, for an experience that feels better in the moment. The analogy of having kids comes to mind.


captnmr t1_jdefbpg wrote

>some organizations within the company say failure to comply could result in termination

Absolutely insane of a policy. Apple has periodic employee review periods where each employee is rated and calibrated against their peers. You are judged on the impact you delivered; not necessarily how you delivered.

Forcing some teams to go to the office is absolutely insane. If some people are not efficient from home and decide to work form home, then deal with this as a performance problem. Otherwise, let people work.


fragment137 t1_jdf3dan wrote

I don't care if they're Apple. If I was working for a company that mandated back to office, I'd be leaving. After working from home for three years straight, I see no value for me returning to the office.

Actually, I don't see any value for the company either, because my productivity will probably take a hit, and my flexibility to work outside my given hours would completely die.


captnmr t1_jdf4a97 wrote

Yup, this is my point. Don't take attendance like college. Measure accomplishments.


fragment137 t1_jdf4kx7 wrote

Exactly. My performance speaks for itself. What the hell do they care if I'm sat in my scivvies in my comfy gaming chair in my own home. Job gets done. I'm paid for the job, not for showing up. If it was the other way around, believe me I'd be there every day, showing up on time and getting exactly zero work done, lol.


Neverlookedthisgood t1_jdg56r7 wrote

Completely agree. I remember the “going to the office” days. We’d talk about news in the morning, do some work, have a hour meeting where some work got done or was talked about. Then we’d all head off across town to some random lunch spot one of us picked. It definitely wasn’t a close spot, and always took over an hour. At 4 we were all ready to hit the door.

Fast forward, I wake up 15 minutes before work, work until lunch, play with my daughter for 30 minutes, then usually continue working until 5 or later.

Before wfh I was sitting in rush hour traffic for hours a day, not getting any work done during that, or any father-daughter lunch time. It was lose lose for everyone. It’s beyond me why companies are fighting to have people back, unless management just wants to feel important again checking on people at their desks.


ASEdouard t1_jdf4vrt wrote

If an employee plainly refuses to follow workplace policies, how is this not ground for termination?


captnmr t1_jdfhxex wrote

Legally, sure. But it’s a stupid policy that doesn’t have any effect on performance.


its_k1llsh0t t1_jdfmw3h wrote

We have the same culture where I work. What impact are you having? Not how did you make that impact. Just yesterday our CEO said in a town hall that failure to come in the 3-days a week without an approved exception would be reflected in performance reviews.


Sniffelheim9 t1_jdfkpil wrote

Why do people think they can just do whatever they want on someone else's dollar? You end up getting fired just to get replaced by someone who will be paid less but extremely happy because it's the most they ever made. Sounds dumb.


dungone t1_jdga956 wrote

See this is what you've got completely ass backwards. It's not their dollar. They're not paying you for your commute, they're telling you to use your own money to do that.


drgrubtown t1_jdjdbwf wrote

If actually showing up to work is too abusive for you, then just start your own tech company and make your own rules.


dungone t1_jdjg9m3 wrote

I don't need to start my own company to demand that I get paid for my time. That applies to every job, ever. I also don't need to start my own company to negotiate the terms of my labor and working conditions. This is especially true for exempt salaried positions for high skilled professionals. They are the subject matter experts, not the executives. If you don't believe it then let's switch to hourly pay with time and a half overtime. Then we'll talk.


drgrubtown t1_jdjin9b wrote

If a company pays you to show up to work, then either show up or don't work there. Again, if you feel like the work arrangement is abusive, then you're free to not work there.


dungone t1_jdn5n8c wrote

They're literally not paying you to show up to work. Out of all the things they pay you for, that is the one thing they definitely don't.

Moreover, that's not how any of this works. Professional relationships between employer and professional are built around mutual respect. You have no idea how much damage this is doing to employers. They can never be respected again by any employee who works for them.


drgrubtown t1_jdn63q9 wrote

I mean, showing up is a precondition for like 90% of jobs but go off on why youre special


dungone t1_jdn6dcs wrote

What is it that you do for a living? It might make it easier for me to explain how this works to you if I knew where you're actually coming from.


drgrubtown t1_jdn9tgq wrote

It doesn't really matter what I do for a living. If you have a job where a precondition is that you show up to work, dressed in clothes, and showered. Then either do that, or don't agree to work there if you think that's unfair. Real simple.


dungone t1_jdnaf2c wrote

It matters because you don't even understand what the word "precondition" means. Clearly you have never worked as a professional in a professional setting.


drgrubtown t1_jdnhmty wrote

Can you explain why you think that? Or does that extend beyond your ability?


dungone t1_jdpi8im wrote

Yes, I can explain it. Professionalism is built upon mutual respect between employer and employee, for many reasons. Let’s start by saying that it is just as important for the employer to listen to the professional as the other way around. That means there are no “preconditions” or other wage-slave concepts involved. Employers who lose the respect of their professional staff are unlikely to continue to succeed. Professional relationships are fundamentally different from unskilled labor relationships because employers are specifically depending on professionals to tell them about the best way to accomplish the job and compete in the marketplace. It’s the same reason why you’ll hire a lawyer instead of representing yourself in court - because you actually want to win and you’re not stupid enough to believe that you know best

But, imagine a simpler scenario. Imagine if you hired a plumber and you told him to use toilet paper tubes for plumbing instead of actual pipes. Yes, the plumber will tell you to go fuck your self and refuse to carry out the job the way you want. But the bigger issue is that if you plumb your house with toilet paper tubes, you’re going to be sorry. Your plumbing won’t work. You should have listened to your plumber.

Does that make sense?

So when you are playing these simple dumb-shit power dynamics in your head about who is paying for what and what they get to decide, it’s not that simple.

Let’s put it another way. If every Apple employee who disagreed with Apple HR and MBA brain farts decided to actually quit, everyone would lose. The professionals would have to find jobs that paid less. And Apple would ultimately go to the waste bin of history.


GradientDescenting t1_jdh8foj wrote

Being in the office is a distraction for most software engineers. I probably only get 40% as much done in office, I used to have to work 3-4 hours every evening just finishing my work from the day because too many distractions in office. Ever since work from home started my output went up by 50% to doubled.


drgrubtown t1_jdjdgai wrote

Some engineers are more productive, some aren't. It's pretty silly to pretend like they all respond the same way to WFH.


jesseserious t1_jdew826 wrote

For anyone who has been praising Apple for not doing layoffs, this has been their workforce reduction strategy since the downturn began.


hifidood t1_jddupqt wrote

Tim Cook seems to have a management style where he wants to overlord on everyone in the building and let them know he's the boss.


fragment137 t1_jdf2nr1 wrote

I seriously don't get this. The main buzz words I hear about return to office are "collaboration" and "socialization" and it's like.... We're a freaking tech company... It's literally what we do, virtually... As in online, not in front of people.

Productivity goes up with WFH.

Better work/life balance.

Less burnout/worker fatigue.

No commuting means less expenses, and less risk of accidents caused by fatigued drivers.

Apple: bUt CoLlAbOrAtIoN. BaCk To OfFiCe.


buff_samurai t1_jdf7vwm wrote

Don’t forget about nature: we strive to be green! Now, all of you get in to you cars and spend 2-3h / day burning diesel.


Linoorr t1_jdham0g wrote

I think this should be mentioned more. Making people commute when they don't have to is just not good for the environment.


bunkerburner t1_jdf7q91 wrote

You must return to the office for reasons that are definitely NOT that we spent an obscene amount of money on this office space, and you are making us look bad.


NavyPirate t1_jdg2agw wrote

It's the company’s policy. Love it or leave it.


Neverlookedthisgood t1_jdg606j wrote

It’s the companies policy that they just enacted, after years of it not being. Your statement would make sense if these employees didn’t just spend years at home keeping the company afloat, only to be told to comply with the new policy or leave.


NavyPirate t1_jdgay7f wrote

The only reason those employees stayed at home is because of COVID. With the pandemic behind us, each company is at will to adjust their WFH policies as they require it. Apple is asking employees to come to the office three days a week. If employees want to WFH exclusively, they are free to apply to other departments or companies.


Neverlookedthisgood t1_jdgbgat wrote

They aren’t asking anything, that’s the point. Employees all over the world stepped up and kept these companies afloat during mass shut downs, and in times when they would’ve otherwise gone under, or atleast not been profitable. The thanks they get is to be forced to come back it. When instead they should be enticing or at least only asking employees to come back in.


snowleopardx64 t1_jdgrroz wrote

they are not required to ask, only to announce.
If you don t like it, well at the very least you have an amazing resume.


Neverlookedthisgood t1_jdi5xa8 wrote

Of course the aren’t required to ask, my post never said they were.

I’m not sure if you’ve been reading other comments in the thread here. There are lots of people not even getting calls back for job interviews. The market is flooded with tech workers from all the layoffs. Having an amazing resume at this point doesn’t guarantee you anything. Apple is trying to avoid laying people off and paying severance pay by trimming the workforce by inconveniencing them instead.


soundkite t1_jdfl8q9 wrote

how dare an employer demand attendance


randymysteries t1_jddy889 wrote

My manager recently told me that our company has to insure me no matter where I work during the designated work hours.


Gideon_Effect t1_jdf7g64 wrote

Its really simple, If you value your job go to work as required.


GradientDescenting t1_jdh8lx1 wrote

Yeah but I am probably twice as effective as a software engineer not being in office filled with distractions. If companies cared about the actual work being done, rather than real estate leases, this would be non issue


varukimm t1_jdeheq1 wrote

I would pay apple to hire me and work in that circle. /aj


pierfishmarket t1_jdfuqz3 wrote

If you guys don't want to return to the office then I'll be glad to take your job


Federal_Artichoke_88 t1_jdhdro3 wrote

When I finally went in to the office I was surprised at the amount of people who had been coming in regularly. Engineers with young children and older engineers with a retired spouse 😂😂


drgrubtown t1_jdjczjj wrote

ya'll love to shit on companies demanding workers return to office without realizing that the alternative is hiring remote developers from eastern europe that will write incredible code for like $20k/year. Be careful what you wish for...


FromAnotherGamer t1_jdlligb wrote

They have to justify there big ugly stupid buildings lol


Mr_BWF t1_jdg1m8h wrote

This country is so fucked.


Redvex320 t1_jde91zw wrote

It’s almost like a 40 year campaign to make sure the population is uneducated, docile, and easily influenced by propaganda did exactly as it was intended to do.🤬🤯🤬


WhoaEazzzyTurbo t1_jdd53kc wrote

Apple is a private company and allowed to enforce employment participation measures.


prophet001 t1_jddcz60 wrote

And we're allowed to not work for them.


waywalker t1_jdenr4k wrote

Perhaps, but that's not what's happening. Instead of being adults about it and finding a job which aligns better with their preferred work environment, they whine about it and hope that if they hold their breath and stamp their feet enough they'll get what they want. Maybe, if they're lucky, they'll even get a cookie.


prophet001 t1_jdetyys wrote

We're also allowed to make demands of the companies we work for. It's a two-way street. Companies only have power over us insofar as we allow them to have power over us


theusername_is_taken t1_jdfktj0 wrote

It blows me away how willing people are to just allow corporations to have unilateral power when they are the economic size of a decent sized country, especially in Apple’s case. But these same people would freak the fuck out if the government told them to do the same shit. The brainwashing is real in America. Suck the corporation’s dick and never complain. Don’t like it? Find another corporation, where you’ll checks notes have to suck their dick. Ah, the illusion of freedom in capitalist America.


HYRHDF3332 t1_jddmekm wrote

Of course, and they may even succeed in the short term. In the long term, this is a lost cause and basic market forces will force the issue:

  1. Huge savings on overhead

  2. Competitive advantage when it comes to attracting talent

You can't put the genie back in the bottle and the number 1 hurdle to business adopting major changes like this was blown to bits by covid. The, "this is the way we've always done it", excuse.


Mijal t1_jddsut5 wrote

  1. Good talent
  2. Normal "market" wages (not overpaying)
  3. On-site workers

Pick 2.


Mr_J90K t1_jde6bax wrote

I'd argue 1/3 are harder than ever before, you're basically banking on grabbing the selection of good engineers that like being in the office and that does seem to be a minority of engineers as a whole. That isn't to say there aren't some, the best engineer I've ever met loves going into the office BUT in my experience it is the minority for sure.


slowpoke2018 t1_jddnxyl wrote

Indeed, let them reap what they sow = losing top tech talent


WhoaEazzzyTurbo t1_jdeu172 wrote

It’s humorous this comment of mine is getting downvoted enough though it’s 100% factual. Just goes to show thin-skinned butthurt people can’t handle the truth.


FKreuk t1_jddxzid wrote

That office looks amazing… I would rather be there than at home…

Edit: during work hours….

Tough crowd.


pizzainoven t1_jde3j2j wrote

good luck affording a place to live within a 1 hr commute. there's a 2br townhouse in Cupertino, CA listed for about $1.4 million USD>


edeepee t1_jdh7r4j wrote

You gotta “/s” for sarcasm because it’s hard to detect online sometimes.


Undead_Ligma t1_jde4uah wrote

I’d love to work at a place like that. The employees complaining about being forced to go back are just ungrateful pieces of shit tbh.


CarbonSquirrel t1_jde82jx wrote

Or they can’t afford to live anywhere within a 2 hour commute to the office


PizzaWall t1_jdebth2 wrote

Traffic is terrible in the area. Even with taking an Apple bus to work, you can face a five hour commute to go 30 miles. And you have to swipe your access card to get in the bus.


edeepee t1_jdh7k4k wrote

They can. They just may not want to because it costs more, the commute eats up time in the day and money, and they would prefer peace and privacy as they work.


SatoriCatchatori t1_jdec314 wrote

They work for apple pretty sure they can


do_you_even_ship_bro t1_jdgg9tt wrote

> They work for apple pretty sure they can

you realize housing and traffic affects everyone, right? not just the people working at Apple...


SatoriCatchatori t1_jdij7io wrote

I’m talking about apple employees, the part where I said “They work for apple” probably should have clued you in…


do_you_even_ship_bro t1_jdijkx4 wrote

> I’m talking about apple employees, the part where I said “They work for apple” probably should have clued you in…

oh duh. and all those apple employees driving to the office causing traffic and increasing housing prices in the local area don't affect anyone else...


SatoriCatchatori t1_jdixy5e wrote

I’m not saying it doesnt or that isn’t an issue. But it wasn’t what I was talking about.


Killgore122 t1_jddvlfh wrote

Hybrid is the better system. You can work from home on the one day you don’t want to come in (Monday), and the one day you’re practically checked out (Friday). Any extra WFH days are a nice bonus. Sorry, no f***ing sympathy for them since I’ve never really worked a true remote job even during the pandemic.


Apprehensive_You2473 t1_jde1gvk wrote

My situation is like this so your situation must be like this is tired and oversimplifies things, no sympathy for you blah blah blah, this the better system because this is all I’ve experienced lol cmon… I’m moving from remote to hybrid and am fine with that but different things work for different people, I think a good balance can be found, trust from employers is key I believe.