Submitted by zsreport t3_yhl24k in technology
Comments
Smith6612 t1_iuev5fk wrote
I remember Louis Rossmann going through something similar with his eBike, where the manufacturer of one battery company was found cutting corners and not being up front about it. He went as far as demonstrating the protections of another battery on live stream, and explaining the situation which caused his battery set to go on fire.
Lithium batteries are no joke.
DavidJAntifacebook t1_iuexmgg wrote
> He went as far as demonstrating the protections of another battery on live stream, and explaining the situation which caused his battery set to go on fire.
Would you link to this?
MadLintElf t1_iuf0oiw wrote
At my hospital we use lion batteries for mobile cart computers. In the last 10 years we only had one go bad on us. These batteries run a computer/monitor for 8 hours at a time and cost around 1K USD.
When that battery went the housing split and out of a pinhole smoke shot out, thankfully no flames. We put it in a metal bin, put the bin in a cinderblock walled stairwell and let the fire department handle it. But thankfully no cascade failure.
askjacob t1_iugcz9p wrote
Are they Lithium Polymer, or Lithium Iron Phosphate?
The latter have slightly less capacity, but are considerably less spicy and can handle thousands of charge cycles so tend to be used more in situations like this.
MadLintElf t1_iuinyjm wrote
The one's at work are Lithium Polymer, we need the energy density for the devices. That being said I'm glad we went with them based on the track record.
We did have an option for cheaper batteries, but the company wouldn't provide a warranty since we would be buying from another manufacturer that only covered replacements. They specifically had in the documentation that they were not responsible for overcharging the batteries or battery failure damages.
VincentNacon t1_iuepe0m wrote
Yeah, I've been saying this over and over again... They really need to spread out the battery cells inside the battery pack, so it could vent heat and cool down better. A bike has a lot of spaces to spread them out.
For an example, could be inside the long tube inside the bike's frame, all the way from rear to front, top to bottom.
Afro_Thunder69 t1_iuet9fh wrote
How would you charge the battery if it's built into the frame? Bringing your bike up an apartment building isn't always feasible but bringing a removable battery is
Bsomin t1_iuetiri wrote
they have structural/integral batteries that form part of the frame but are also removable
Afro_Thunder69 t1_iuetoot wrote
That sounds interesting then
apimpnamedmidnight t1_iueu567 wrote
I was about to say that was a bad idea, but I bet it would be fine on a commuter bike. They shouldn't see anything more crazy than a drop off the curb or a pothole
I pity the poor soul that tries to take it off even a small ramp, though
VincentNacon t1_iuexkkw wrote
It doesn't have to be like that. It's possible to spread out the weight and yet keep the Center of Mass in the same spot.
If anything, it would make it easier to carry/lift compared to having it all in one spot.
bigfatmatt01 t1_iuf4zh8 wrote
Yeah and don't bike riders tend to take part of the bike with them anyway if they park it outside, like the handlebars or a detachable front wheel?
rex30303 t1_iuf7eye wrote
At most what i have seen is the seat if it is tightended with a quick release.
bigfatmatt01 t1_iufeaeb wrote
I may be remembering the movie quicksilver with Kevin Bacon
WhenAmI t1_iug9gui wrote
Quick release front tires are very common on decent bikes.
rex30303 t1_iugxufa wrote
Yes but people dont take them with them.
Shiftlock0 t1_iufacfr wrote
Sounds complicated compared to a simple snap-on battery. I wonder how much this would add to the cost of the average bike?
VincentNacon t1_iuexvqx wrote
Yeah, it'd have to be charged right on the spot.
But then, it's possible to open the end of the tube and pull the battery out. There are some flexibility in the designs process.
MadLintElf t1_iuf1lzo wrote
Ever watch Jerry Rig Everything on Youtube, Zack does a teardown of a Rivian truck's battery pack. All compartmentalized, big honking blocks of batteries with cooling components.
It's a lot more doable than you think.
As for putting them in the frame, it sounds good but would still have to reside in the lower portion to keep the center of gravity proper.
ELONGATEDSNAIL t1_iufd8us wrote
When batteries fail its typically not due to over heating but rather a loose piece of metal contacting the wrong terminal, or water damage. Having them spread out might help these issues but then you need much more wiring to connect all these batteries. Plus how would you remove them from inside the frame once they need to be replaced?
deep-space-runner t1_iuers07 wrote
Are they battery standards and certifications one should look for?
teamdilly t1_iuewd6b wrote
UL 2849 is the gold standard certification. You can also ask to see the battery’s UN 38.3 certification, which is required for transport of lithium ion batteries internationally.
MadLintElf t1_iuf0f0t wrote
For car and other lion batteries yes there are, but ebikes are just off the shelf batteries that are shipped with no certifications they just work.
Wizywig t1_iufqieg wrote
a) there needs to be a regalatory charger protocol so that there's no such thing as mismatched chargers
b) we need to force inspections on ebikes just like we do with cars. They need to be license plated and restricted. That way we can say what types of batteries are permitted and inspections mandatory
Unfortunately public safety.
But unfortunately ebikes don't fit the motor vehicle description because they're too slow for MV and too fast for manual bikes. It creates a very weird gap in the law.
MadLintElf t1_iuio7is wrote
And boy do we love to exploit gaps in the law since people are making money and other people are being misled at the least and seriously harmed at the worst.
Here in NYC I've been hit by two e-bikes in the last 3 years. Both times they were on the sidewalk at night, no lights and I was hit from behind.
Wizywig t1_iuj4qvm wrote
Streets are suggestions
Traffic laws are suggestions
Red lights are suggestions
Speed limits are suggestions
Lights on the vehicle are suggestions
​
I wasn't hit, but came close to running multiple over as they cut into me. It is a menace.
ELONGATEDSNAIL t1_iueweth wrote
Its extremly difficult to compartmentalize batteries and have them fit a nice form factor to fit inside pevs. Most bats I've seen are Lion which are really just 24+ single cell batteries spot welded together. I suspect some of these welding are shotty. Also i see a lot of people riding in the rain... yeah that does not mix. Even with claims that your device is waterproof. Don't think anything will change until battery tech gets much better.
MadLintElf t1_iuf09oc wrote
Rivan does it with there vehicle batteries, Tesla does it as well. At my hospital we use mobius batteries, they last 8 hours but I've seen them disassembled and they are just a bunch of separate batteries.
It is more costly, but like the mobiuis battery I mentioned above, when one battery goes it's just one battery, a bit of smoke and that's it. The crappy one's do have bad soldering and nothing to keep that cascade from happening.
RSquared t1_iufn68m wrote
Most PEV battery packs are just 18650s in combination of series/parallel, e.g. the most common e-skateboard pack is 3s10p (3 series of 10 parallel batteries, usually Samsung 30q or 25r 18650s). Add a voltage regulation board and you've got a PEV battery.
I know some DIY battery-makers and they're crazy like lacrosse goalies. But it's way cheaper to make a 4s12p battery that can do 35mph with 40 mile range than to buy one.
UncreativeTeam t1_iuf047x wrote
If you can't tell which are which, then how will bans on existing ones be enforced?
MadLintElf t1_iuf1phn wrote
That's why I laugh about it, regulate it then ban the one's that don't follow the regulations.
reggie_rocket t1_iueig3x wrote
My local hobby shop has had several customer’s houses burned down from charging RC batteries. This isn’t a new issue, there are just more batteries.
hblok t1_iuetph6 wrote
Care to give some general advice on how to avoid this?
I assume we're talking about lithium batteries for fast RCs, and not the latest Monster Jam or Paw Patrol?
SpiritDCRed t1_iuev8eh wrote
Biggest way to avoid this is to never let lithium RC batteries charge unattended and use quality chargers. I’ve also seen lots of hobbyists build little isolation chambers out of ammo cans and such, so if it catches on fire it is enclosed.
Envect t1_iuf58gj wrote
Don't higher quality chargers have protections built in? I used to play airsoft and I swear my charger had some safety shut off. I still kept a close eye on it though.
thisplacemakesmeangr t1_iufwhpd wrote
They say the problem generally comes when they don't use stock chargers.
asdaaaaaaaa t1_iug4a83 wrote
That's my understanding as well. Modifications or people getting really cheap stuff that's not directly meant for the batteries/device.
WesBur13 t1_iugqoa3 wrote
Ehh I argues to say most aftermarket chargers have much better control and quality compared to included chargers. I personally use ISDT and HiTech brand chargers and they are leaps and bounds beyond what is included with air soft and RC related stuff.
thisplacemakesmeangr t1_iuh07tq wrote
You'll have to argue with the article then, that's where I got the statistics.
gonewild9676 t1_iuhb2gm wrote
Those are probably ok. The likely issue is that they go on Amazon and see good chargers for $150 and other chargers for $20 and they are $20 for a reason.
notFREEfood t1_iufk5sd wrote
I've got a name-brand ebike, and from what I can tell, the charger automatically shuts off once the battery is fully charged.
[deleted] t1_iuflzm3 wrote
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doommaster t1_iug236y wrote
You need a good BMS too, the issues mostly arises from cells being overcharged because single cells are broken and not taking a charge anymore.
With NiCad and NiMH cells the batteries would just get warm and eventually the charger would hit a time or temperature limit.
With Lithium cells the charger or BMS have to detect this condition and stop the charge.
Most lithium cells will start breaking down very quickly once they are being overcharged, which is often resulting in fires.
On the other hand, fires of cars and such are also not really uncommon but often happen outside and cars also do not scale well in high density areas but eBikes eventually will.
What worsens the whole situation is the inconsequential regulation or the lack there of, of eBikes which prevents bigger players from entering the market and creating a common quality level.
Looking at Europe and Japan far over 90% of the eBikes are big brands which could never tolerate such failures in their product lines.
robotobo t1_iuiv5ca wrote
Are people actually charging these batteries without looking at each cell group? As somebody who works with lithium batteries, that's terrifying.
doommaster t1_iujttg7 wrote
People are dumb, and sellers/manufacturers cut corners all the time.
DancesWithBadgers t1_iuhfk0m wrote
It's all money. A good charger will have protection; but there's also extra protection in the device itself for balancing the cells. All of these things cost extra to manufacture.
There's also things that no amount of electronic protection can save you from...like water; physical damage of a cell; or just a badly-manufactured cell. Lithium cells are prone to thermal runaway which is scientese for saying they're really, really bad at dealing with short-circuits.
weizXR t1_iuf660d wrote
100%: You need a proper charger, one that monitors the charge and knows when to stop.
And yea, this obviously doesn't apply to just bikes, it applies to all of those types of batteries.
Unfair-Thought5814 t1_iufuzqi wrote
And has a thermal sensor on each cell.
Masterjts t1_iuhtd1u wrote
That is how I charge and store mine, in a metal ammo can. Lost several batteries to charging fires and two to storage fires over the years. Never did more than destroy everything in the can though.
ILoveThisPlace t1_iug1zvq wrote
This is good advice. Also do not store too cold or too hot. Although that would mean storing the battery inside in a basement or something where fire can be bad. So next thing you can do that I've been debating is purchasing a fireproof cabinet and placing it on a cement wall with a food of space from anything flammable. I'd store all my Lithium batteries there probably... power tools, lawn equipment battery, cab booster, ebike battery.
Buying an ebike off a trusted known brand will lead to better luck. A tried a true cell from.... crap I was once told the 3 big trustworthy battery companies... i think it was Samsung, LG, and I can't remember the third, maybe Phillips... bah, anyway, those cheap Chinese batteries from aliexpress should be avoided. They have not done the northamerican safety tests for batteries. You can not trust them. It's unlikely an ebike company will build there own battery. They would get it sourced and it would be up to the company designing the bike to do their due diligence.
So it would be good to research your ebike or the battery vendor and see if you can find some info on defective batteries.
shaggy99 t1_iug427e wrote
Going back about 35 years or so, guys racing RC buggies would waterproof their batteries and charge them in a bucket of cold water. I think they were something other than Lithium though. metal hydride?
I remember one guy got called for his race, he grabbed a pack from the bucket and disconnected it, looked at it for a second and threw it back in the bucket and shook his hand. "I'll use the spare"
WesBur13 t1_iugqujt wrote
NIHM and NiCD batteries used to be charged at high current on timer chargers. That practice has fallen away with lithium packs that you usually charge at 1-2C. Chargers of the same price range nowadays have better logic than a dial timer.
reggie_rocket t1_iueymkg wrote
I believe it’s from leaving batteries charging unattended as someone else said. Those RC devices are cheap Chinese products. The shop owner was very vocal about it and basically talked me out of getting into race drones. I will say that newer battery operated devices are built a lot better, my Onewheel charger is very high quality and it turns itself off when fully charged.
Moddersunited t1_iuf011x wrote
Don't charge a battery with a bad cell. & Make sure you're using the correct balance plug when charging.
Short of the correct charge profile, doing those two things every time you charge is enough to keep you safe.
cheeksmear t1_iufc1oo wrote
How are you supposed to tell if a bike battery has a bad cell?
Seyon t1_iufe0ku wrote
Visual Inspection. The most obvious warning signs can be found through a simple visual inspection. Signs of a bad battery include broken terminals, a crack or bulge in the plastic casing, as well as any leaking fluid or discoloration. Sometimes, battery terminals can become corroded.
HAHA_goats t1_iufgbx8 wrote
If it burns down your house it's bad.
Moddersunited t1_iufo61e wrote
Through the balance plug. A balance plug allows you to individually check the voltage of each cell in a pack. This allows you to balance charge a pack and match the voltage of each cell.
If a pack doesn't have a balance plug it normally has a protection circuit installed for a similar task. Hopefully it will account for errors in judgement. I don't have a hand on many consumer cells but if a battery takes 8 hours to charge at normal charging current I would be extremely suspect of that battery bms or no.
aaaaaaaarrrrrgh t1_iufqqsj wrote
Store and charge large batteries in places where they're less likely to hurt people if they catch fire. Not always possible, but as far as possible from people in a room without much flammable stuff and a solid door is a good start.
Also, don't fuck around with cheap noname stuff when it comes to batteries and chargers.
AnynameIwant1 t1_iuinyuc wrote
As a firefighter, I went to a total loss house fire started by a Power Wheels car next to the back of the house. Fire climbed the wall and it was all over from there. (the homeowners got home after the fire was called in to us by a neighbor)
Lithium batteries aren't safe anywhere in or near a house. (including tablets and phones) You just never know. With that said, yes, I leave my tablets/spare phones at home, but not on a charger.
fractis t1_iuezqpo wrote
One advice would be to always use the charger supplied by the manufacturer.
[deleted] t1_iufqlmd wrote
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XonikzD t1_iug2ezc wrote
Yeah, the lack of BMS in hobby cars has been an example of the value of a BMS in full scale EVs.
DancesWithBadgers t1_iuheti3 wrote
It's not necessarily more batteries that are the problem; it's that to drive electric bikes, boards, and scooters; the battery packs are big. When those things go up, you know about it.
An RC car battery going up is not ideal; but it's a lot smaller. A typical e-vehicle battery would be something like 24 cells on the limp low power budget end to 96+ cells on the scary bespoke end. A typical 'battery fire' is one cell catching fire and setting light to neighbouring cells. Each cell that catches fire is more-or-less unstoppable until it feels like stopping; and lithium (+li-po and li-ion) battery fires give off rapidly expanding clouds of toxic gas. And the cells spit fire, so anything in the same room is in direct danger of being set alight.
It's mostly the toxic gas that'll kill you, though, so grab children and pets and get out the door and away before you have to breathe in again. Most people can hold their breath for a minute from a standing start, so that's how long you've got. Forget about putting out the fire unless you have a bucket of sand standing by (which you should); and even then it's a side mission on the way to GTFO-ing out of there within your minute.
mayathemenace t1_iuemlhr wrote
“The FDNY says most batteries are so destroyed by fire when they inspect them that they can make no conclusions about which brand is safer than another.”
Well that’s just great.
JeremeRW t1_iuezdmw wrote
How do they not even know the brand and model? Even if it is destroyed, you would think the owner at least knows what they bought or where they bought it. Sounds lazy.
UncreativeTeam t1_iuf0hap wrote
The article points to people mixing and matching. A person on a budget cheaping out on a battery probably isn't going to have a receipt detailing what brand it was, and the shop who irresponsibly sold it to them will keep tight lips. Assuming they even bought it from a legitimate shop.
BoricPenguin t1_iuedlmr wrote
"So far this year, six people have died in e-bike-related fires and 93 people were injured, up from four deaths and 79 injuries last year"
That's a lot more then I thought like sure it's highly population city but almost 100 people injured in a small market is a pretty good number and frankly it will only get worst as they get more popular.
No_Sheepherder7447 t1_iueoi3b wrote
6 people have died? what the fuck
phunkydroid t1_iues50a wrote
The only thing that makes sense to me is that the bikes were in the house and started a house fire.
SmugDruggler95 t1_iufsb2i wrote
Or crashed the bike and injured themselves, then caught fire.
If they ignite when crashing
ukezi t1_iuiejv2 wrote
The energy in bike crashes usually isn't enough to break the batteries unless a car or truck then crushes them.
SmugDruggler95 t1_iuig6hz wrote
Usually they don't spontaneously combust either
Gotta consider more than one possibility when you're just speculating without data
koalanotbear t1_iug1emz wrote
how many have died from gas powered bike fires?
Test19s t1_iui640q wrote
It sucks that even the most efficient transportation device ever, the e-bike, has its problems. Guess I’ll stick to walking.
thisischemistry t1_iuetxo7 wrote
The question really becomes how do bikes that are gasoline-powered compare to the electric ones, in terms of safety. It could be that gasoline ones are even worse but aren't in the news as much.
SpaceWorld t1_iuf04r0 wrote
Use cases are so different that I don't see much value in comparing them.
Most_Expert_8080 t1_iuew4i4 wrote
They are not catching fire and blowing up like this
[deleted] t1_iueuzrm wrote
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greensasquatch t1_iuepx4h wrote
Cheap unregulated chinese batteries with improper wiring, cheap BMS boards with no thermal protection compound with cheap chargers without improper charging profiles.
There is a big trend on Amazon these days towards cheaper and cheaper goods with most battery related tech being sold without proper safely certifications, often coming straight from China.
biggaywizard t1_iuelrlz wrote
I worked for Skip Scooters out of San Fran, we had this same exact problem and those of us with experience in battery tech kept going to the upper management and explaining that there would be a catastrophic failure at some point. Sure enough, weeks later two caught on fire in Washington DC, one went up in the warehouse and several burned down one of the delivery vans. Shortly after they went out of business. I love battery technology but it's no joke. When it goes up in flames, you're fucked.
flummox1234 t1_iuexp97 wrote
People commenting really should read the article. There is a certain measure of preventability here that isn't being done.
Many, if not most, of the fires in New York involve e-bike batteries owned by restaurant delivery workers, who work long shifts, traveling dozens of miles a day.
The longer the batteries are used, the more time it takes to fully recharge them, and it can take up to 8 hours. That in turn makes it harder for owners to keep on eye on their batteries the whole time they are plugged in, which is key for safety.
A lot of guys have four, five, six bikes in their apartment and they swap out chargers for different bikes when it doesn't belong to that bike,
MaybeCuckooNotAClock t1_iufr4ou wrote
I listened to the story on my local NPR radio affiliate this morning- that was definitely an underlying factor that they emphasized.
winelight t1_iuh5eep wrote
So I guess that sort of situation could only arise if manufacturers are producing cheap/clone batteries and chargers: you can't generally swap chargers or overcharge batteries, because the charger plug is unique to the brand, and genuine chargers contain the necessary protection circuitry.
flummox1234 t1_iuiv6cv wrote
It could just be the same connector type, e.g. I once plugged in a 9V charger into a 5V port that had same connector. Poof. Fried that electronic device.
arosiejk t1_iuhpks5 wrote
As someone who isn’t up on the different specs for bikes that seems like it could compromise a lot of batteries. We got a slightly different model that had been changed to fit Black and Decker yard tools. Over the course of a year the charger got so loose on the old an new battery that it wouldn’t transmit a charge. The failure there was at least on the end of what transmitted the charge, rather than what stores the energy.
Leiryn t1_iuf0prp wrote
What? You mean leaving cheap china lipo packs out in the elements to be abused by the general public is resulting in fires? I'm flabbergasted
FreedomCorn t1_iueul9z wrote
Most comments here are talking about “unreliable batteries” instead of proper battery charging/discharging and maintenance. Most of the time when things go wrong is due to overcharging.
KennyBSAT t1_iuf1wsy wrote
That's on the manufacturer and/or regulators. A thing that needs to be plugged in in order to charge is never going to be perfectly babysat in the best of situations, and if it's a tool that people use everyday it's definitely got to be built so that it is safe if left plugged in for a month or if left unplugged and discharged for a month. If you can't get that worked out, you don't have a product that's safe to sell to the general public.
FreedomCorn t1_iuf2ghi wrote
Define “safe for the general public”
KennyBSAT t1_iuf3aws wrote
If someone tried to save a couple dollars building a car and made one that you had to open the hood and disconnect the battery every time you were going to leave it parked overnight in order to prevent it from catching fire, that would be a car that's unsafe, the sale of which would never be allowed. If something has to be plugged in for hours, it needs to be safe to leave it plugged in for hours. Regardless of exactly when it stops charging. It's not that hard for manufacturers to build a battery and/or charging system that will shut off when it needs to so that it is safe.
The definition of safe for the general public for a given product may take a sentence or a book, but that's up to manufacturers and/or regulators to figure out and adjust for real world conditions. Clearly that's not happening.
thisnewsight t1_iuf4n8n wrote
Example: iPhones stop charging your phone when it hits 100% and when it hits 99%, it’ll charge to full and then stop.
That’s what battery charging tech should have by default
Safe_Indication_6829 t1_iufh7y6 wrote
you could even have the battery's internal circuitry report 99% as 100% so the device is none the wiser and won't even try and shove more into it
wioneo t1_iufdwcf wrote
> got to be built so that it is safe if left plugged in for a month or if left unplugged and discharged for a month
That seemed like a pretty explicit definition for at least part of the requirement.
timesuck47 t1_iufjwzx wrote
Idiot proof. Have you met the general public?
FreedomCorn t1_iufksmd wrote
Great definition
DavidJAntifacebook t1_iuexwb1 wrote
How can I learn about the proper way to do all of this?
FreedomCorn t1_iueyqbt wrote
Usually a manual or instructions. Sometimes called directions.
DavidJAntifacebook t1_iuh400b wrote
So all of these batteries come with these instructions and people are just not reading them?
FreedomCorn t1_iuhlak4 wrote
Yes they do. Probably not reading directions.
EvilBahumut t1_iufczks wrote
Back in my LiPo RC car days, chargers had to go on timers so you didn’t come home to ashes and jail time. IIRC, nowadays you can buy a charger with variable output that has a built-in timer but they’re $$$$$. (That’s why all the cheap-China scooters don’t come with them built in, right?)
BafangFan t1_iuffycv wrote
That's actually a good idea.
Except I don't know how common outlet timers are.
Reddit_means_Porn t1_iuezmvq wrote
Overcharging is when you leave your charger on forever instead of charging the device and removing it from the charger when it’s done charging.
LegitimateCrows t1_iuebree wrote
This is what happens when the market and these idiot “customers” wants shit CHEAP.
DUH.
MadLintElf t1_iueckso wrote
When you want an electric scooter and don't have a lot of money it seems like a good deal. Yes the lower price should be a dead giveaway, but these batteries should be regulated and not allowed to be sold due to them being improperly manufactured.
We made our neighbor keep the charger and battery in a concrete garage for charging. At first they were offended, but we explained and showed them the video's and yeah they had no problem after that.
zsreport OP t1_iuedcuf wrote
> When you want an electric scooter and don't have a lot of money it seems like a good deal.
Especially when you're a restaurant delivery worker who doesn't get paid much to begin with and gets treated like shit by your boss, the police, customers, etc.
MadLintElf t1_iuefi9n wrote
Oh you are spot on with that, I see it happening more up in the Bronx. At least down here in Brooklyn the stores buy them, but they have enough common sense to charge them outside.
And yes they all get treated like shit and it sucks.
LegitimateCrows t1_iuefkb7 wrote
I hear you for sure. But this is a problem in the US especially - the constant want for “cheap” and a race to the bottom. Of everything. That’s part of why we are where we are.
zsreport OP t1_iueg1bp wrote
> the constant want for “cheap”
Unfortunately, lot of times it isn't a want so much as it is a need.
kneedeepco t1_iuejhzq wrote
Yup this is a multifaceted problem. For one the lack of public transportation leads to an increase in the need of personal transportation such as an e-bike. Second, low wages lead to consumers leading to less than desirable products out of necessity. Third, we outsourced our labor to countries with much more loose regulations.
Our culture preaches profit first and these companies are following that. They don't care about consumer safety or the quality of their product as long as people will buy it and they'll make money.
Lastly... THERE IS A COST FOR EVERYTHING!!
MadLintElf t1_iuej3aw wrote
I've lived in NYC for over 50 years. I try to only use glass bottles and containers to store everything and everything I buy comes in plastic that can't be recycled because it's cheaper to sell that way.
Thankfully we have ethnic markets, and you bring you own bag. Bulk rice, beans, fruits, dried good, etc. I'd rather recycle a glass bottle and brown paper bags than toss plastic into a landfill.
But you are right, the manufacturers have zero incentive to sell things that last. Heck I have an old black and white TV that is older than I am and still works. Can't tell you how many LCD tv's we have tossed over the years.
I keep saying our garbage dumps will be the mines that our future generations will be digging though. If we don't become sustainable we'll drown in our own crap and nothing will be left for future generations.
[deleted] t1_iuejgaa wrote
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Majik_Sheff t1_iuelz5q wrote
How about "we convinced our neighbor that what they were doing posed a risk to themselves and us by showing them examples."
Don't be a twat.
[deleted] t1_iuemsdw wrote
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moosemasher t1_iuezi94 wrote
More fun than the neighbor who refuses to listen and burns your house down.
HenryKrinkle t1_iuf54k9 wrote
You can't put this on the customers. They can't be expected to know a bike they got a good price on is gonna fucking explode. And they could spend 3x the price and still have no guarantee that corners aren't being cut. It's completely the responsibility of the manufacturer to deliver a safe product.
LegitimateCrows t1_iufjv93 wrote
It starts there though. Everything has been boiled down to quantity at cheap versus quality for a bit more money. Nearly everything.
I work in the bike industry. When you tell a customer “this battery is $800 and is name brand cells that are quality and that one is $200 prone to failure much more often” they are 8 out of 10 willing to “roll the dice” on it. And it often isn’t even about the money. They take the spare $600 and buy 2 more of the cheap batteries as “backups” to “extend the range” that they don’t need to pedal their lazy selves.
sanbikinoraion t1_iuh5ggc wrote
"Prone to fail" is not the same as "could explode and kill you". And still some people don't have the money to make the good choice. This is about regulation.
theborgs t1_iuez6hm wrote
GM had to recall all the Chevy Bolt they built because of faulty batteries that could burst into flames... I wouldn't call a $30k car cheap shit...
online_jesus_fukers t1_iuf3gcu wrote
It was made of cheap shit to maximize the profits taking advantage of people who want an environmentally friendly car at a bargin price.
Angelaira74 t1_iuf18g5 wrote
Tesla has had similar issues. These batteries are not the panacea we are being told they are. But people have to learn the hard way I guess.
LegitimateCrows t1_iufk7d0 wrote
Not so much anymore:
“Much of this has to do with the rigid, fortified structure of the battery pack that is mounted to a car's floor, which provides a vehicle with exceptional strength, large crumple zones, and a uniquely low center of gravity. Because of their strength, Tesla's battery packs rarely incur serious damage in accidents.”
Bensemus t1_iufyzqm wrote
No they haven’t. GM had a full quarter where they built only like 5 cars during the recall. Tesla never had to recall hundreds of thousands of cars for faulty batteries. GM is also suing Panasonic for billions for the recall.
[deleted] t1_iujv1gn wrote
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sanbikinoraion t1_iuh54fp wrote
$30k for a hybrid electric is a fucking bargain.
UncreativeTeam t1_iuf0npz wrote
It's unfair to call them idiots or cheap. Many are just scraping by trying to make a living with food deliveries.
seimungbing t1_iuf1npd wrote
there needs to be a regulation on battery cells over certain capacities like there is regulation on gas tank: they specified on how it should be manufactured, mounted, how it should vent and there the pipe can go, and where should the certifications be displayed.
Duelgundam t1_iuh87vb wrote
Maybe they can take a leaf out of Singapore's playbook on that.
We were experiencing this very issue YEARS ago, when E-Scooters were starting to become a thing here.
Then again, I'm pretty sure the greedy corporations manufacturing the damn things will just bribe their way onto the "safety list"
lifeat24fps t1_iuem7ji wrote
I noticed my neighbor now runs an extension cord out his 3rd floor window to charge his e-bike on his stoop. I guess I have to assume it’s because of this issue.
I’m sure this is perfectly safe too.
[deleted] t1_iuhh4ci wrote
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KickAggressive4901 t1_iuemc8c wrote
Not just in NYC, either.
Sa404 t1_iues2sv wrote
I see the car industry is finally paying for their marketing on Reddit
hi65435 t1_iuety6j wrote
Better not to save on batteries - or rather not get an ebike at all. The original parts are comically expensive but necessary. Also storing these things within apartments might not be the best idea. Charging while not there even less. Or use after shock. (E.g. after falling to the ground) FWIW there are charging bags but not all can stand the pressure of a thermal runaway (-> see YouTube videos)
Another option is to wait a few years until LFP batteries will become officially available for ebikes
shewshews t1_iuf9ge5 wrote
No easy solution here. I'm lucky that I have room to keep all things that can explode away from the house. Charge battery during the day and set an alarm to remind myself to disconnect it. Otherwise get a cheap wifi controlled switch and make it shut down at dawn no matter what. If I had to charge inside I would get a smoke detector and place it nearby. Don't charge it near an exit or near the bedroom.
[deleted] t1_iuhhdn4 wrote
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p8ntsplat1 t1_iufkp1t wrote
At less it’s green Energy. Lol
kissmaryjane t1_iufbcqx wrote
There’s money to be made here. Someone needs to make a fire proof bag you can put large ridable electronics in while they charge.
XonikzD t1_iug1vih wrote
Sew together a couple welding blankets and there you go.
kissmaryjane t1_iug1yki wrote
You just downvote me buddy ?
Myderelictlife t1_iugn0t5 wrote
I think the scariest part of this is all of the stuff being made in china without consistent production or safety standards.
As an example, I ordered two identical items off of Amazon and the power adapter part of it were completely different, to the point that one out of box barely worked and would only power itself if I angled the power cable at a strange angle with pressure on it.
Sure, it’s just a minuscule issue that would probably blow a gfci…but all of the other battery powered mass produced junk pushing tons of power is scary
copraglyph t1_iuhf38k wrote
Battery fires from both bikes and cars is the main reason that a fire door and fire ceiling are increasingly becoming code on houses with integral garages.
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Lets_Make_A_bad_DEAL t1_iuezg78 wrote
Rented a bike share then BOOM no penis. What a bad day.
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jimglidewell t1_iufrc8f wrote
Looking at the shocks on that burned "ebike"...
Unfair-Thought5814 t1_iufv4uu wrote
The dive boat fire that killed a bunch of people was said to be started by portable device batteries being charged during sleep.
[deleted] t1_iugl8yp wrote
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Super_Posable_Joe t1_iug6ebf wrote
Seems like a good timer on the wall socket would help prevent some of these batteries from exploding.
[deleted] t1_iugf2ze wrote
Time to switch to LiFePo batteries
Ensaino15 t1_iugl33q wrote
Eos makes batteries that will not blow up. I wonder if any state mandate would make their tech mainstream?
Biff_Malibu_69 t1_iugqhgn wrote
Yaaay! EV's will save us and oyr planet! Weeeee greeeeeen!
[deleted] t1_iuguwvg wrote
This is a hit-piece crafted by Louis Rossmann so that he can hoard all of the available batteries for himself, isn't it?
DeftNerd t1_iuh1oih wrote
The solutions proposed in the article won't solve the problem. The ideal solution would be to design a standard "bike shed" to store and charge ebikes. The shed should be designed so each bike is in a separate fire-resistant compartment with fire detectors (and possibly foam extinguishing systems).
To encourage use, the power should be free and the compartments heated to make sure that they're at least 40f to maintain battery health in the winter.
Compartments should be locked and unlocked with a phone. After 24 hours, they can be charged a daily storage fee, but anything under 24 hours should be free. Each compartment can also have a camera for NYPD to quickly scan through them for security purposes and to catch bike thieves that try to bust through the metal doors.
Downside is that there are lots of bike charging connectors and systems, so users would have to plug their chargers into a regular outlet.
TLDR; If beat up electric delivery bikes keep catching fire, provide a safe place for them to be recharged rather than trying to ban them or regulate the batteries they use. People will keep ordering cheap batteries off the internet, build their own bikes, and flaunt the laws. But free secure charging sheds to store your bike so you don't have to bring it inside? That'll be hugely popular.
BlueHarlequin7 t1_iuh4oo6 wrote
Oh hey, it's hoverboards all over again. I thought this would be a resolved issue.
Duelgundam t1_iuh7s3h wrote
Singapore: First time?
6023x10 t1_iuhgads wrote
Is 174 really double 104? Must be new math
DrVagax t1_iuhlgpk wrote
Was trying to figure out why this happens in NYC but not for example in the Netherlands, we have a ton of eBikes here now but I rarely hear any story about a battery catching fire.
bigbiblefire t1_iui6yxe wrote
The recycling yard I run had a large fire this Summer...it was ignited by an exploding lithium ion battery inside one of those cheap hoverboards. These cheap toys have cheap batteries in them that sit in the hot sun and literally explode. Never had the issue with Power Wheels batteries or things like that...just all these cheap overseas bullshit toys.
biggreencat t1_iuif20k wrote
isnt this a net positive?
dailytour30 t1_iuj1ml8 wrote
We in the EUC (electric unicycle) community can sing you a sad song a bout that. Sooo many wheels, (by different manufacturers too) have caught fire lately and riders are really worried. Look up "Kingsong S20 fire NYC" on youtube to see what that can look like. It could easily kill several people if it were to go off in a car on the freeway or in a crowded subway train. That thing turned into a frigging flamethrower.
Teamnoq t1_iuglqok wrote
E-bikes have gone all Jihad ? Did China make the batteries? Planned attack?
justcharliey t1_iufp6rx wrote
Is Elon making these too? He’s the king of fires.
Bensemus t1_iufz4uk wrote
It’s GM that is the king of fires. They had to recall hundreds of thousands of Boots due to faulty batteries. Tesla hasn’t had any such recall.
justcharliey t1_iug1pcv wrote
Ok, he’s the Prince of fires. He’s still a bigger douche.
Bensemus t1_iugyg2y wrote
Him as a person has nothing to do with it. Tesla doesn’t have a fire issue.
XonikzD t1_iug237n wrote
Because battery failure for Tesla is a feature that you pay extra to report /s
Appropriate-Sport-22 t1_iuheva9 wrote
Hopefully this will lead to the ban of all these e bikes and e scooters polluting our streets and sidewalks
Appropriate-Emu4873 t1_iuevugn wrote
Better title: fatalities from exploding e-bikes multiply in NYC (among/surrounding ….)
reason is that the fatal part is the most important part of the subject. It seems like floating around the topic the way the title is written.
BKLounge t1_iufwedv wrote
Just wait til everyone has an EV...
We've already had...
Exploding Cell phones
Exploding E-bikes
And these things dont run into each other at high speeds on a regular basis.
XonikzD t1_iug0yvx wrote
I wonder if mopeds ever caused deaths and destruction.
Naisu_boato t1_iufz1j4 wrote
All this and they want every car ev? It’d look like Beirut or any other war torn city with all the fires and explosions. A truly brilliant future with all the lithium battery fires.
XonikzD t1_iug1hnf wrote
I bet they'll still represent them in movies with gasoline fire though
Naisu_boato t1_iug3j2k wrote
For a sci-fi twist the battery car fires offer a crazier image. Anarchy movies wild show gas engines on fire.
XonikzD t1_iug4wqw wrote
I was referring to the way that pyro effects for car explosions work in film. Most car explosions in film are done with small detonations that aerosolised bags of gas to make the fire look cool on film.
Naisu_boato t1_iug5l6p wrote
Batteries don’t explode, they just burn and accurate in burning. It’s not exciting as a good old fashioned gasoline explosion with its sudden release of energy.
XonikzD t1_iug63ow wrote
I keep that in mind every time I see video of EVs exploding. The explosion videos always turn out to be effects production heavy.
Naisu_boato t1_iug86jw wrote
I won’t deny that lithium battery failures are interesting to watch. They flare up and the very hot flame consumes everything it touches.
Gasoline fires in the movies they use so many cheats though, a real car fire (see them here on the highway sometimes) is just a kinda violent big fire.
Head-Kiwi-9601 t1_iuget9f wrote
Google “laptop explosion.”
Naisu_boato t1_iuh6e0g wrote
Sounds exciting actually.
Head-Kiwi-9601 t1_iuhelh3 wrote
Oh it’s really hot.
Naisu_boato t1_iuhm3fb wrote
I’m burning up inside (outside?) hearing this.
Big-Profession-6757 t1_iuf98yn wrote
Gasoline powered is safer and longer ranged. Until battery technology improves, which it probably won’t for 20+ years, gasoline powered anything is the way to go. C’mon engineers, fix and improve this problem already.
ForPortal t1_iugl0n3 wrote
> Gasoline powered is safer and longer ranged.
According to the statistics, all-electric is safest, followed by ICE, followed by hybrid.
Ivanthegorilla t1_iueighw wrote
slave mined lithium batteries explode seems poetic to me
DoDrugsMakeMoney t1_iufsfed wrote
Ah yes, the poetry of a Billionaire exploiting slave workers, to make products that maim the unexpected purchasers, and then gets away with it.
Poetry for sociopaths like yourself I guess.
Bensemus t1_iufz7bj wrote
Right. Australia is running space mines to supply the world with lithium.
MadLintElf t1_iuec6u4 wrote
So many of the batteries are manufactured on the cheap. They are not compartmentalized and cause a chain reaction that results in catastrophic failure.
Those types of batteries need to be banned, I have shops in my neighborhood and looking at the batteries you can't just tell. Best to pay more money from a reputable dealer and of course don't mismatch chargers.