Submitted by zsreport t3_yhl24k in technology
reggie_rocket t1_iueig3x wrote
My local hobby shop has had several customer’s houses burned down from charging RC batteries. This isn’t a new issue, there are just more batteries.
hblok t1_iuetph6 wrote
Care to give some general advice on how to avoid this?
I assume we're talking about lithium batteries for fast RCs, and not the latest Monster Jam or Paw Patrol?
SpiritDCRed t1_iuev8eh wrote
Biggest way to avoid this is to never let lithium RC batteries charge unattended and use quality chargers. I’ve also seen lots of hobbyists build little isolation chambers out of ammo cans and such, so if it catches on fire it is enclosed.
Envect t1_iuf58gj wrote
Don't higher quality chargers have protections built in? I used to play airsoft and I swear my charger had some safety shut off. I still kept a close eye on it though.
thisplacemakesmeangr t1_iufwhpd wrote
They say the problem generally comes when they don't use stock chargers.
asdaaaaaaaa t1_iug4a83 wrote
That's my understanding as well. Modifications or people getting really cheap stuff that's not directly meant for the batteries/device.
WesBur13 t1_iugqoa3 wrote
Ehh I argues to say most aftermarket chargers have much better control and quality compared to included chargers. I personally use ISDT and HiTech brand chargers and they are leaps and bounds beyond what is included with air soft and RC related stuff.
thisplacemakesmeangr t1_iuh07tq wrote
You'll have to argue with the article then, that's where I got the statistics.
gonewild9676 t1_iuhb2gm wrote
Those are probably ok. The likely issue is that they go on Amazon and see good chargers for $150 and other chargers for $20 and they are $20 for a reason.
notFREEfood t1_iufk5sd wrote
I've got a name-brand ebike, and from what I can tell, the charger automatically shuts off once the battery is fully charged.
[deleted] t1_iuflzm3 wrote
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doommaster t1_iug236y wrote
You need a good BMS too, the issues mostly arises from cells being overcharged because single cells are broken and not taking a charge anymore.
With NiCad and NiMH cells the batteries would just get warm and eventually the charger would hit a time or temperature limit.
With Lithium cells the charger or BMS have to detect this condition and stop the charge.
Most lithium cells will start breaking down very quickly once they are being overcharged, which is often resulting in fires.
On the other hand, fires of cars and such are also not really uncommon but often happen outside and cars also do not scale well in high density areas but eBikes eventually will.
What worsens the whole situation is the inconsequential regulation or the lack there of, of eBikes which prevents bigger players from entering the market and creating a common quality level.
Looking at Europe and Japan far over 90% of the eBikes are big brands which could never tolerate such failures in their product lines.
robotobo t1_iuiv5ca wrote
Are people actually charging these batteries without looking at each cell group? As somebody who works with lithium batteries, that's terrifying.
doommaster t1_iujttg7 wrote
People are dumb, and sellers/manufacturers cut corners all the time.
DancesWithBadgers t1_iuhfk0m wrote
It's all money. A good charger will have protection; but there's also extra protection in the device itself for balancing the cells. All of these things cost extra to manufacture.
There's also things that no amount of electronic protection can save you from...like water; physical damage of a cell; or just a badly-manufactured cell. Lithium cells are prone to thermal runaway which is scientese for saying they're really, really bad at dealing with short-circuits.
weizXR t1_iuf660d wrote
100%: You need a proper charger, one that monitors the charge and knows when to stop.
And yea, this obviously doesn't apply to just bikes, it applies to all of those types of batteries.
Unfair-Thought5814 t1_iufuzqi wrote
And has a thermal sensor on each cell.
Masterjts t1_iuhtd1u wrote
That is how I charge and store mine, in a metal ammo can. Lost several batteries to charging fires and two to storage fires over the years. Never did more than destroy everything in the can though.
ILoveThisPlace t1_iug1zvq wrote
This is good advice. Also do not store too cold or too hot. Although that would mean storing the battery inside in a basement or something where fire can be bad. So next thing you can do that I've been debating is purchasing a fireproof cabinet and placing it on a cement wall with a food of space from anything flammable. I'd store all my Lithium batteries there probably... power tools, lawn equipment battery, cab booster, ebike battery.
Buying an ebike off a trusted known brand will lead to better luck. A tried a true cell from.... crap I was once told the 3 big trustworthy battery companies... i think it was Samsung, LG, and I can't remember the third, maybe Phillips... bah, anyway, those cheap Chinese batteries from aliexpress should be avoided. They have not done the northamerican safety tests for batteries. You can not trust them. It's unlikely an ebike company will build there own battery. They would get it sourced and it would be up to the company designing the bike to do their due diligence.
So it would be good to research your ebike or the battery vendor and see if you can find some info on defective batteries.
shaggy99 t1_iug427e wrote
Going back about 35 years or so, guys racing RC buggies would waterproof their batteries and charge them in a bucket of cold water. I think they were something other than Lithium though. metal hydride?
I remember one guy got called for his race, he grabbed a pack from the bucket and disconnected it, looked at it for a second and threw it back in the bucket and shook his hand. "I'll use the spare"
WesBur13 t1_iugqujt wrote
NIHM and NiCD batteries used to be charged at high current on timer chargers. That practice has fallen away with lithium packs that you usually charge at 1-2C. Chargers of the same price range nowadays have better logic than a dial timer.
reggie_rocket t1_iueymkg wrote
I believe it’s from leaving batteries charging unattended as someone else said. Those RC devices are cheap Chinese products. The shop owner was very vocal about it and basically talked me out of getting into race drones. I will say that newer battery operated devices are built a lot better, my Onewheel charger is very high quality and it turns itself off when fully charged.
Moddersunited t1_iuf011x wrote
Don't charge a battery with a bad cell. & Make sure you're using the correct balance plug when charging.
Short of the correct charge profile, doing those two things every time you charge is enough to keep you safe.
cheeksmear t1_iufc1oo wrote
How are you supposed to tell if a bike battery has a bad cell?
Seyon t1_iufe0ku wrote
Visual Inspection. The most obvious warning signs can be found through a simple visual inspection. Signs of a bad battery include broken terminals, a crack or bulge in the plastic casing, as well as any leaking fluid or discoloration. Sometimes, battery terminals can become corroded.
HAHA_goats t1_iufgbx8 wrote
If it burns down your house it's bad.
Moddersunited t1_iufo61e wrote
Through the balance plug. A balance plug allows you to individually check the voltage of each cell in a pack. This allows you to balance charge a pack and match the voltage of each cell.
If a pack doesn't have a balance plug it normally has a protection circuit installed for a similar task. Hopefully it will account for errors in judgement. I don't have a hand on many consumer cells but if a battery takes 8 hours to charge at normal charging current I would be extremely suspect of that battery bms or no.
aaaaaaaarrrrrgh t1_iufqqsj wrote
Store and charge large batteries in places where they're less likely to hurt people if they catch fire. Not always possible, but as far as possible from people in a room without much flammable stuff and a solid door is a good start.
Also, don't fuck around with cheap noname stuff when it comes to batteries and chargers.
AnynameIwant1 t1_iuinyuc wrote
As a firefighter, I went to a total loss house fire started by a Power Wheels car next to the back of the house. Fire climbed the wall and it was all over from there. (the homeowners got home after the fire was called in to us by a neighbor)
Lithium batteries aren't safe anywhere in or near a house. (including tablets and phones) You just never know. With that said, yes, I leave my tablets/spare phones at home, but not on a charger.
fractis t1_iuezqpo wrote
One advice would be to always use the charger supplied by the manufacturer.
[deleted] t1_iufqlmd wrote
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XonikzD t1_iug2ezc wrote
Yeah, the lack of BMS in hobby cars has been an example of the value of a BMS in full scale EVs.
DancesWithBadgers t1_iuheti3 wrote
It's not necessarily more batteries that are the problem; it's that to drive electric bikes, boards, and scooters; the battery packs are big. When those things go up, you know about it.
An RC car battery going up is not ideal; but it's a lot smaller. A typical e-vehicle battery would be something like 24 cells on the limp low power budget end to 96+ cells on the scary bespoke end. A typical 'battery fire' is one cell catching fire and setting light to neighbouring cells. Each cell that catches fire is more-or-less unstoppable until it feels like stopping; and lithium (+li-po and li-ion) battery fires give off rapidly expanding clouds of toxic gas. And the cells spit fire, so anything in the same room is in direct danger of being set alight.
It's mostly the toxic gas that'll kill you, though, so grab children and pets and get out the door and away before you have to breathe in again. Most people can hold their breath for a minute from a standing start, so that's how long you've got. Forget about putting out the fire unless you have a bucket of sand standing by (which you should); and even then it's a side mission on the way to GTFO-ing out of there within your minute.
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