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lecali4011atdrloutan t1_j4r30xz wrote

Reply to comment by Snl1738 in Industrial espionage: How China sneaks out America's technology secrets by sankscan

Good. You’re gonna need a job once those corporations close because their ip was stolen to make cheap Chinese copies.

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Jdobalina t1_j4rlb0n wrote

We’ve outsourced so much of our manufacturing and labor to China it’s insane. You reap what you sow. Corporations wanted cheap labor and goods, and they sent it to a country the US routinely insult sand derides. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t tell us China is an authoritarian hellhole, and then outsource that much labor and manufacturing to them, because then you’re complicit in human rights abuses. But then Again, the US has never really cared about that.

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lecali4011atdrloutan t1_j4saicd wrote

I think you are mostly right. However the consequence of this won’t hurt just corporations. People work at those jobs and have their stock. I think you are wrong about human rights though. You don’t have to travel to much to see that the US has much greater respect for human rights that most other countries.

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Jdobalina t1_j4skwui wrote

Anybody that has routinely aided in the overthrowing of democratically elected governments, has invaded more countries in the last 60 years than anyone, has lied their way to a war in Iraq that killed nearly a million people (many of them civilians) has carried out experiments on unwilling participants, who exploits child labor to maximize profits, does not have universal healthcare, has black site torture prisons around the world, no guaranteed maternity leave, routinely allows children to be murdered in schools , and has more people imprisoned than any other country in the world per capita doesn’t care about human rights.

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lecali4011atdrloutan t1_j4sqn3b wrote

Do you see any positives on the other side of the scale? Freeing Eastern Europe from totalitarianism? Saving Kuwait from extirpation? Protecting Ukraine and Taiwanese independence? Providing a middle class living to 100s of millions? Eliminating more dictators than the rest of the world combined? Just want to know what you think about the positive role the US has played in promoting human rights. There are a lot of girls in Afghanistan who remember what being in a classroom was like

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Jdobalina t1_j4szfze wrote

The same Afghanistan where we gave weapons and money to the Mujahideen, and drug traffickers like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar? (Operation Cyclone) Who had a nasty habit of splashing acid in women’s faces? The same Afghanistan who, after being there for twenty years, we simply looted their central bank?

Also, for every dictator we have ever removed, we’ve propped up three more. Whether in Latin America (operation condor), or in the Middle East, or Africa, or Asia (the Jakarta method).

Countless invasions, coups, drone strikes, economic sanctions, blockades, assassinations and what do we have to show for it? Being the worldwide arbiters of violence doesn’t seem to be doing this nation any good right now.

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lecali4011atdrloutan t1_j4tpvyh wrote

You dodged my question. We gave weapons to isi to fight the evil empire. Not because they were liberal reformers. Real life has risks. The us bombed a medical factory in Sudan. Why??? Because the goal was just. In the real world there are unknowns and mistakes. It’s nice and easy to sit back and judge with hindsight. Without exception the dictators the us killed were more repressive than the us. It’s funny to hear you say the us stopped saddam. Tried to stop Castro. Killed gaddaffi and but we’re somehow worse? Do you know anything about how repressive the north Vietnamese were?

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Snl1738 t1_j4rwk86 wrote

It's hard to be sympathetic to entities that avoid paying taxes, pay their actual workers poorly, cut benefits, make health care expensive, lobby politicians to take away workers' rights, and pays their ceos millions. Anyway, I and you are way more likely to be screwed over by an American corporation than some Chinese state owned enterprise.

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lecali4011atdrloutan t1_j4sazhb wrote

I think we mostly agree. But the costs of losing to Chinese companies will hurt us citizens too. A windmill maker shut down bc is tech was stolen by China. (Simplistically). That is foreboding.

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GoldWallpaper t1_j4t6h7s wrote

> But the costs of losing to Chinese companies will hurt us citizens too.

Funny, that's what some of us tried to argue in the '90s. China is an industrial superpower because the US -- under President Bill Clinton, and a Republican Congress joined by conservative Dems including Biden -- decided that outsourcing US jobs to China was a great idea. Those of us who fought against it were called anti-business socialist liars at the time.

Ten years after that we were called terrorist traitors for speaking out agains the Iraq War, which was also supported by a Republican Congress and joined by conservative Dems including Biden (and HR Clinton).

Being correct isn't that hard when the truth is so fucking obvious.

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lecali4011atdrloutan t1_j4tqcrg wrote

Don’t simplify things. There is a different between buying toys and textiles from China and medicines and computers. Early on it was win win. Now it’s dangerous. There is more on the line now. I suggest we disengage and I’ll bet you’d agree. Not sure why Iraq came up but cool.

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Snl1738 t1_j4sdbj9 wrote

And you and I benefit through cheaper wind power, which is a wonderful thing.

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lecali4011atdrloutan t1_j4soeep wrote

Interesting point. So the US pays for all the r and d and then Chinese companies steal it? Do you think that is a net positive given the huge scale of the theft?

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