Why is it that a lot of TV shows these days have really poor sound mixing

Submitted by StarChild413 t3_1171am2 in television

Reminded of that watching the pilot of The Company You Keep on Sunday night and though the story was interesting otherwise the one thing that made it almost painful to watch (other than how these guys could be much better con artists if they learned from Leverage's example) was how it felt like the background music was so absolutely booming that it drowned out dialogue or at least pushed it into the background. I could get it to some degree if it was a stylistic choice to emphasize the covert and hush-hush nature of how both leads live their lives but if it was it probably wouldn't have been so loud that at points character names or lines of dialogue feel completely drowned out unless you've got metaphorical Vulcan hearing

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The_Primate t1_j99n1mb wrote

It's a combination of

Lavalier mics replacing single mics for scenes so that people don't have to shout or speak clearly to be heard.

A quest for high dynamic range so that exciting explosions and the like seem louder than dialogue.

A desire for authenticity even if that means that some dialogue will be difficult to hear or even completely inaudible.

It's quite annoying to a lot of people.

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Fuzzikopf t1_j9b5rpj wrote

>A quest for high dynamic range so that exciting explosions and the like seem louder than dialogue.

I hate this trend so fucking much, it pretty much never enhances the viewing experience. In 95% of the cases, it's just annoying.

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The_Primate t1_j9bmpbc wrote

Yeah, it means I end up riding the volume control so that I don't wake my daughter up with house wobbling explosions.

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Optimal_Plate_4769 t1_j9fwdte wrote

wear. headphones.

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The_Primate t1_j9gegq2 wrote

While watching TV with my partner? Both of us sitting there on the sofa in headphones?

That shouldn't be necessary.

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Optimal_Plate_4769 t1_j9fwcrw wrote

10 minutes into The French Connection (1971) two characters have dialogue about going out for one drink and as soon as it's decided we cut to a significantly louder club scene.

it's not a bad thing. it isn't 'annoying', it's good, it even lets the sound drop in favour for non-diegetic elements for the purpose of storytelling after a bit.

it's not new and it's really not a bad thing. if you really are worried about loud stuff being too loud, wear headphones and cap the max. you won't have to raise the sound or touch it because even a whisper can be heard.

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Fuzzikopf t1_j9fzi9z wrote

Of course having some dynaminc range can be good. But the way that Nolan and friends use it is absolutely ridiculous and way overdone. That's what makes it so annyoing, even if there is an artistic/realistic aspect to it.

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Optimal_Plate_4769 t1_j9fzmua wrote

> But the way that Nolan and friends use it is absolutely ridiculous and way overdone

no, i'm sorry, but there's not a single line in Nolan movies that you need to hear that can't be heard. none.

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crdctr t1_j9dpoe1 wrote

They go for the audio level of an actual conversation, but how many times a day do you ask someone to repeat themselves? In reality, We can't hear shit lol

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mint_lint t1_j9argnq wrote

I think covid is the culprit.

You couldn’t physically get on the mix stage and review your show with the mixer because of covid protocols. If you were lucky the director could get on the mix stage during covid. But a lot of the studios forbade it. So you had directors, producers, and showrunners giving audio notes remotely.

Which was a disaster because there was no uniform way for all the people giving notes to monitor the audio.

Color was already dialed in for remote work ahead of covid. A lot of color houses send any remote participants an iPad Pro. There’s not a lot of color setting to tweak on an iPad Pro so it was easier for the color houses to know everyone was viewing the content in the same color space.

Also, a good number of sound mixers are still working from home. Everyone’s home office is a different shape. And has different acoustic properties. There’s no way to pink out all the different rooms to make sure everyone is calibrated the same way.

EDIT: Sound also isn’t given enough respect on set. It’s always image over audio. If the boom mic gets in the way, its gone for that set up. And production schedules are so tight now that crew will be off building or striking another set while action is being recorded nearby. So you constantly have people shouting for work to be stopped because all that work is getting picked up by the audio devices.

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llloksd t1_j9btf0f wrote

This was an issue long before COVID. People watching way more at home during COVID just highlighted.

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mint_lint t1_j9bzsz2 wrote

Thread title says “these days”. Highlighting the pitfalls of collaborating during covid seemed fitting.

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apescaper t1_j99tgfw wrote

https://www.slashfilm.com/673162/heres-why-movie-dialogue-has-gotten-more-difficult-to-understand-and-three-ways-to-fix-it/

some quotes:

""There are a number of root causes," says Mark Mangini, the Academy Award-winning sound designer behind films like "Mad Max: Fury Road" and "Blade Runner 2049." "It's really a gumbo, an accumulation of problems that have been exacerbated over the last 10 years ... that's kind of this time span where all of us in the filmmaking community are noticing that dialogue is harder and harder to understand."

"Mangini says that in the old days, "you could count on an actor's theatricality to deliver a line to the back seats." But acting styles have changed so dramatically over the years that it has become much more difficult to capture great sound on the set. When actors adopt that more naturalistic style, "it's even harder for the production sound mixer to capture really quality sound. Now we get those compromised microphone positions here in post-production, reaching for a dialogue line that is barely intelligible or maybe even mumbled because it's an acting style, and already, we're behind the 8-ball in trying to figure out a way to make all of those words intelligible."

"What we see from our brothers and sisters in production is a never-ending [complaint] that they don't get the respect they need to get the microphone where it needs to be to capture the sound clearly," Mangini says. "That's because as movies have matured in the last 15 years, movies have become more visually exciting. And because of that, it is less likely that you're going to be allowed to put that boom mic right where the actor is, because it's probably going to drop a shadow because it's in front of a light that the camera team insists has to exist to get the perfect look of the shot. So [the visuals have] taken precedence over what we hear."

https://www.slashfilm.com/577777/christopher-nolan-sound-mixing/

Specifically speaking about the sound design of Interstellar, Nolan said, "We got a lot of complaints. I actually got calls from other filmmakers who would say, 'I just saw your film, and the dialogue is inaudible.' Some people thought maybe the music's too loud, but the truth was it was kind of the whole enchilada of how we had chosen to mix it."

Nolan has spoken about this topic in the past, but here he is once again confirming that he is well-aware how his movies sound, and yes, he's making them sound that way on purpose.

"It was a very, very radical mix," he went on. "I was a little shocked to realize how conservative people are when it comes to sound. Because you can make a film that looks like anything, you can shoot on your iPhone, no one's going to complain. But if you mix the sound a certain way, or if you use certain sub-frequencies, people get up in arms."

Its not a singular issue, it affects both tv and movies.

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IndyRevolution t1_j9cceiq wrote

Bravo Nolan, people are "conservative" because they want to hear important plot exposition instead of sailboat noises and droning booms. Truly an underappreciated visionary.

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bob1689321 t1_j9ct9hn wrote

While I get why people criticise his mixes, when it works it really, really works. The Dark Knight and Inception are 2 of the best sound mixes I've ever heard. A lot of the time I rewatch them solely because of the sound.

Tenet took it too far for the most part, and it's caused people to crap on all his movies.

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Optimal_Plate_4769 t1_j9fqw6z wrote

there isn't a single nolan movie where important plot exposition depends on the clarity of a line.

you're missing the story because you're focusing on the least important part of a scene.

he obviously has you hear dialogue when it matters.

like TENET has fucking incredible sound, it's amazing. people are mad because of some lines spoken on the F50 catamarans? come on.

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IndyRevolution t1_j9jghz7 wrote

Maybe just don't record the audio on the boat like a lunatic?

It's because he refuses to do ADR like a sane person. Aiden Gillan talked about how he knew he was going to be mocked for the plane scene while he was filming it because he asked Nolan's DP "Are they gonna ADR us?" and the DP said something like "Oh no, Nolan would take that as having done the scene wrong." So the actual scene has the audio all fucked by plane noises and awkward line delivery.

My source is this interview, of which I can't find the full VOD for, but here's a snip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgOCCi8VQO0

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Optimal_Plate_4769 t1_j9jshvs wrote

> Maybe just don't record the audio on the boat like a lunatic?

... why NOT?

>It's because he refuses to do ADR like a sane person. Aiden Gillan talked about how he knew he was going to be mocked for the plane scene while he was filming it

what's wrong with that plane scene? it's probably the coolest thing about that movie?

at some point it might come down to taste. i think the delivery and so on in TENET is fucking fantastic. so is the audio.

you don't need to hear EVERY line of dialogue. i can't help but feel this is the result of a babied audience that isn't used to not being catered to in every respect.

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IndyRevolution t1_j9kg116 wrote

Are you implying that classic Hollywood films were like this? Audio was paramount in those films to the point that many stars were ADRed by voice actors for extremely minute reasons.

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Wagnaard t1_j9det99 wrote

People get up at arms because they can't hear the dialogue in a movie. He says it like its a silly plebian way of looking (listening) at things.

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PainStorm14 t1_j9dl8e7 wrote

What? You don't have personal IMAX theater with professional Dolby sound system at your mansion?

Silly pleb...

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Wagnaard t1_j9ex8jo wrote

I feel like a complete joke right now. :(

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CptNonsense t1_j9djsse wrote

Nolan is an auteur bag of dicks about sound design

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LeoLaDawg t1_j99xrqh wrote

NBC shows are the worst. Background music way too loud. Dialog sounds like it was sent to the rear channels. Commercials that explode your ear drums. Whoever is their technical group needs to have a serious meeting.

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NeitherAlexNorAlice t1_j9bimim wrote

It’s because sound mixers nowadays wear top of the line headsets that can detect someone breathing from a mile away.

That’s what they work on, so they that’s their threshold when mixing sounds.

Now translate that to your regular TV and everything outside of music feels muted because your TV speakers mash everything together instead of delicately picking and choosing what you wanna hear.

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dustabor t1_j9f4qp0 wrote

The problem starts on set. There’s tons of articles from sound mixers complaining that what they are given is terrible and they are tasked with trying to make it better while the studios don’t want to pay to have the star come in and dub their lines with a clearer take.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9c995z wrote

it has nothing to do with the engineers headphones, and everything to do with that ultra flat screen tv´s just don't have good speakers.

You need a 5.1 system or at least a soundbar today.

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nilsy007 t1_j9cxsgt wrote

Think 2 powered speakers of good quality is the easiest solution, just add a cable to them from the tv and boom your vocals are great. If that does not solve the issue software/hardware EQ or a more expensive powered speaker will.

Getting a 5.1 introduces a lot of complexity that you then need to solve with time effort and shitloads of money. Were the end result has very little to do with hearing clear vocals.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9e82tw wrote

Sorry, but everything you wrote is wrong. Like , factually wrong.

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Zero_ST t1_j9ezxxk wrote

If the sound needs more than two speakers, then the sound has been mixed wrong for home release.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9f4ea0 wrote

No it means that TV´s today, due to their size physically can't handle good audio production like they could in the old days where you could fit large speakers on each side of a CRT TV. Hence the existence of Soundbars and 3.1 & 5.1 systems.

Just like when you buy a Smart phone you also buy some accessories like EarPods or cases etc, now when you buy a TV you will need to buy a audio accessory if you want to experience decent sound. That's just reality.

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Zero_ST t1_j9f58rj wrote

Neither myself nor the other person you replied to are talking about built-in speakers. We're both referring to separates.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9f671c wrote

with are not a thing, you can't connect only speakers to a tv, unless it's wireless like Sonos or Home pods, and then you are essentially doing the same as getting a sounderbar.

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Zero_ST t1_j9f6pn6 wrote

What are you babbling about? Yes you can, I've done the same thing with about ten different TVs since the '90s.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9f7lwr wrote

please tell me how you connect a speaker directly to a modern TV ?

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Zero_ST t1_j9f8ueu wrote

By plugging them into the aux port.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9fa2qf wrote

what aux port ?

You mean the sp-dif optical out ?
I don't know any speakers who support that directly.

or are you just using the headphone out ?

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Zero_ST t1_j9fajne wrote

The 3.5 mm jack, that is generally called the aux port. This is pretty basic stuff.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9fbf98 wrote

First of all, no it's generally called the phones or headphones OUT port. Auxiliary ports are what you plug IN to for example amplifiers to connect an music source ie a phone or iPod.

Second, those ports are made to be used with headphones with have a lot lower impedance than speakers or amplifiers, so you it's not optimal for sound quality to use them for other things than headphones.

Third, you are still just amplifying the Stereo signal, so you are not getting substantial benefits in vocal clarity, you need to separate the signal for that to happen, by having at least a centre speaker and then L & R speakers, or a sounder that does that virtually.

and forth, learn to recognise when you are speaking to someone who knows more than you on the subject, and learn instead of argue.

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Zero_ST t1_j9fccma wrote

>someone who knows more than you on the subject

Uh huh. Except...

>you can't connect only speakers to a tv

>those ports are made to be used with headphones

So which one is it? You can't connect speakers to a TV at all or you can but it's not made for it? Which is wrong anyway as they're typically labelled audio out, not headphones.

>you are still just amplifying the Stereo signal, so you are not getting substantial benefits in vocal clarity

And yeah, that's the whole point of this thread. Most people aren't audio nerds with top of the range systems, and sound design should account for that.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9fdi8x wrote

> Most people aren't audio nerds with top of the range systems, and sound design should account for that.

sigh.. even my 80 something year old parents got a soundbar, it does not take an "audio nerd"

as for your other "points". if you refuse to learn how to do things properly for good results, then that's your business.

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Zero_ST t1_j9fdum2 wrote

You have fundamentally missed the entire point of this thread.

>>>you can't connect only speakers to a tv

>>>those ports are made to be used with headphones

>>So which one is it? You can't connect speakers to a TV at all or you can but it's not made for it?

Now would you care to answer the question?

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9fedfj wrote

sure, IF you have self powered speakers, you can connect ONE to the phones out port, that's not ideal though as I´ve mentioned. if you want to connect TWO you'd need a mixer in-between.

neither option will give you good sound. A Soundbar would be both cheaper, less hassle, and give you a LOT better sound.

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Zero_ST t1_j9ff92q wrote

Jesus titty fucking Christ, I don't understand how you can be so wrong. One speaker connects to the TV, the other speaker connects to the first one. This is how active speakers have always worked.

And you are still missing the point.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9ffsea wrote

what kinda speakers are you even talking about ? PC speakers ? Do you have a link ? im really curios what kind of redneck engineering setup you are picturing

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Zero_ST t1_j9fi9lk wrote

https://www.google.com/search?q=active+speakers

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9fjqvs wrote

I clicked the first example and it's a pair of 400$ speakers with arc support, with means you connect them with HDMI just like a soundbar or an AVR.

So I don't even know what we are arguing about, as these are speakers with built in AVR possibilities, not just some speakers connected to the phones out..

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Zero_ST t1_j9fmt3r wrote

Not for me. Maybe look at one of the other millions of results.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9fngwc wrote

nah im good, I can't bother with people who refuse to take advice, and just stubbornly ramble on about things they obviously know very little about.

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Zero_ST t1_j9focws wrote

Right... coming from the person who doesn't even know what active speakers are, that means absolutely nothing.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9fui6w wrote

Please.. I´ve owned multiple active speakers wich I've used with various DAW´s. I´m also an audio engineer and a music producer and I´ve been wiring speakers and electronic music gear since I was a kid.

You refuse to take advice, and also refuse to give examples or evidence for what I gather is daisy chaining cheap pc speakers to the headphone output of TV´s.

Honestly I hope you are just trolling me, because the alternative is too sad.

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Zero_ST t1_j9fx6qh wrote

>>Jesus titty fucking Christ, I don't understand how you can be so wrong.

>>https://www.google.com/search?q=active+speakers

>>Right... coming from the person who doesn't even know what active speakers are, that means absolutely nothing.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9fxe2j wrote

yes, you've said that already, what are you trying to say with this c/p ?

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Zero_ST t1_j9fxm1e wrote

If you're going to be too lazy to read then I'm going to be too lazy to post an original comment.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9fxy6j wrote

What do you mean ? I´ve read and answered everything you've said.

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Zero_ST t1_j9fy902 wrote

>sure, IF you have self powered speakers, you can connect ONE to the phones out port, that's not ideal though as I´ve mentioned. if you want to connect TWO you'd need a mixer in-between.

You obviously haven't, otherwise you as a so-called "audio engineer" would understand how active speakers work.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9fzpxh wrote

Active means that the speaker has a built in amplifier. That can range from tiny PC speakers like you got in the 90´s with your tower PC, those have one 3.5mm jack plug usually, and up to professional studio monitors, like I´ve owned, who connect individually with a balanced jack or xlr cables. And also like I mentioned before, large speakers with arc support through HDMI

You have not told me what kind of speakers you claim you are connecting, you just hammer on saying "active" like that is some magic word.

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Zero_ST t1_j9g1gmx wrote

Here's the first result of the Google search for me: https://www.richersounds.com/pioneer-dm40.html

They don't look like tiny PC speakers to me. And s you're apparently having difficulty understanding how they connect there are handy photos too.

Now let's recap. You said speakers couldn't be attached to a TV, I said they could. You asked how, I said using 3.5 mm. You said that must be one speaker only (???), I said it's both. You asked what type of speakers, I gave you a Google link. You couldn't be bothered to at millions of results that show you. I've now given you a direct link to one of them. You said they must be "tiny PC speakers" despite that being irrelevant to your claim that no speakers can be attached to a TV. The link shows that they aren't, and it wouldn't even matter if they were.

So what goalpost are you going to move next to try to avoid admitting you're wrong?

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9g27dp wrote

thank you for finally provide a relevant link.

Yes these are fine speakers.. for music. They will do nothing for the level of dialogue from your TV. Which I believe was the original topic here.

And remember, all of this could have been avoided if you'd just started by saying you were connecting a speaker set to the headphone output, instead of me having to pull out bits of information piece by piece until I finally get an image of what you were trying to set up.

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Zero_ST t1_j9g3p9j wrote

They absolutely do help with dialogue, as I know and as u/nilsy007 does. You didn't know what they were five minutes ago so any claim that they don't can be safely ignored as you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Going back to his original comment, your reply that "everything you wrote is wrong. Like , factually wrong." can similarly be ignored.

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Cyyyyk t1_j9b56b9 wrote

I wish I knew..... but all I know is that I have had to use captions to watch anything for about the last 10 years or so.

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SchrodingersLego t1_j9brk6k wrote

I watch EVERYTHING with subtitles. Got tired of rewinding and trying to work out what was said.

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Calcutec_1 t1_j9c8vda wrote

yeah I've been noticing it in cheaper productions, mainly Netflix. I tried to watch that show about that Dog who inherited millions but it was unwatchable because the music was blasted way to loud in comparison to the dialogue.

But it's so weird because junior sound engineers are a dime a dozen, and mixing basic 5.1 is not that hard.

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Linclin t1_j9b38x7 wrote

Might be the surround sound. Seems to happen a lot these days. It's really annoying. Disney does it also.

Tv have loudness equalization? Night mode works for some people. Could probably play around with the equalizer, decrease base and increase the higher frequency sounds a bit. Likely won't be a universally good setting.

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dvaccaro t1_j9ba5tk wrote

Thank you everybody who commented! Honestly, I thought my inability to hear the dialog was because of getting older. I have had to rely on CC too much recently. CC really ruins the feel of a show for me and because I have to read the CCs I often miss key visuals.

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selecta79 t1_j9c50vy wrote

I think the wide range of speaker types is also a factor. Both for the consumer, and for those mastering the audio.

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mickeyflinn t1_j9et1sz wrote

Sound on TV is just horrible. I am constantly cranking my volume up and cranking the volume down.

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ElwoodJD t1_j9db4e2 wrote

I just don’t have this problem but I hear it a lot from people. I find the problem 90% of the time is one of these:

  1. You are using your TV speakers but shows are mixed now assuming 5.1 and decent quality components.

  2. You have a cheap sound bar or your sound bar is remixing in the fly to simulate surrounds and it’s messing with things.

  3. You haven’t properly calibrated your receiver with your speakers.

80% of the time it’s #1. The speakers built into your TV, no matter how nice your TV is, are probably fairly crappy, can’t produce bass properly, and do a lousy job when high dynamic range is at play

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EyeDontReplyToIdiots t1_j9dy1y4 wrote

I have literally never had a problem with hearing/understanding dialogue ever since I got a system with a center channel.

It’s always people with shitty tv speakers or sound bar that only outputs stereo. Center channel is required.

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