Submitted by Boss452 t3_11bf3ri in television
Metal64Game t1_j9ylukv wrote
Reply to comment by 31_SAVAGE_ in Game of Thrones Season 4 has to be in the GOAT discussion. by Boss452
Should D&D have cut Oberyn Martell because his only function was to get his head crushed by the Mountain?
Lady Stoneheart did serve a function: She was the main person exacting poetic revenge on the Freys. They gave this role to Arya, which is problematic because Arya was already a vehicle for a million other happenings.
It also gave us reasons why Jon Snow's resurrection may not have been a good thing, where in the show it was unambiguously the right decision.
That careful crafting of tension and ambiguity is something D&D forgot to do in the final seasons, something Lady Stoneheart would've given more of.
edicivo t1_j9ypbb4 wrote
I recently did a full rewatch and I don't think the story lost much without her. I think D&D made the right decision.
For starters, it would've been another storyline/character that D&D would have had to wrap up before the end and they clearly were struggling with what they already had.
They had Arya do what, 1 or 2 scenes taking revenge on the Freys? They would have needed to add more to justify Stoneheart or it wouldn't have been at all worth it to keep/revise a character that had little to do with the main story. Did we need more scenes of the Freys being hunted down? Nah. Arya standing in place was fine and took care of the Freys.
With John and Beric and the Mountain being revived from deaths, yet another character coming back would have lessened the stakes. (That said, D&D lessened the stakes anyhow with plot armor for the main "good guy" characters).
They wouldn't have had time to shoe-in more of John struggling about coming back than what was already in the show.
There were so many other problems with the later seasons that Stoneheart would've just been a waste of time.
Tarantio t1_j9z7hio wrote
>For starters, it would've been another storyline/character that D&D would have had to wrap up before the end and they clearly were struggling with what they already had.
Absolutely not, as the beginning of Lady Stoneheart was the end of Beric Dondarrion.
edicivo t1_j9zdclm wrote
That doesn't negate what I said.
In the show, Dondarrion, after Arya left the gang, is mostly nothing more than an extra sword with maybe a line or two of dialogue per ep. Dondarrion ultimately dies in the final battle against zombies. He never had any of his own storylines, he was always a part of someone else's.
Replacing him with Stoneheart as in the books would have required whole new storylines. Stoneheart as a character would have required an end point and she would have needed a more significant ending than what Beric got since Cat was a majorly prominent character. So, like I said, it would have been another storyline/character to wrap up in a show where D&D were already very clearly struggling to juggle storylines and characters.
Tarantio t1_j9zmbpt wrote
They would have struggled a lot less if they had thrown out less.
The writers took out a lot, but they seemed to disregard the difficulty of writing plot to replace what they cut.
Dondarrion being just an extra sword is a result of the writers cutting the end of his story and then having to come up with more for him to do.
Maybe if they had let him die bringing back Stoneheart, we wouldn't have had to suffer through the "seven dudes try to capture a zombie for some reason" plot line. Beric would be dead, Thoros and Gendry would be with the Brotherhood under Stoneheart.
Metal64Game t1_j9yq9qo wrote
People up here still justifying D&D's rampant cuts to the story and over-simplification of characters and themes despite this obviously ruining the show in spectacular fashion.
edicivo t1_j9yr9nh wrote
So either you only read my first two sentences and completely overlooked the multiple times I criticized D&D or you're talking about other people in this thread. Your reply is very vague.
So here, D&D divebombed the show spectacularly, but losing Stoneheart was one of their rare right choices.
Metal64Game t1_j9yrw7u wrote
Arya fast travelling inside the Frey's castle and killing them all off screen in 30 seconds was easily one of the worst moments of the show.
Revenge in GOT became a cheap quick thrill for the crowd.
Arya became a fake character rather than a real person, an omniscient assassin who could kill the bad guys cleanly without any fallout because that's what the audience loves.
And we lost the best twist of the books after the Red Wedding, which is the reveal of Stoneheart, an insane moment justified by its own merit.
For all your problems with Stoneheart, a million more sprung up in her place because of her omission.
edicivo t1_j9yv567 wrote
I agree that Arya becoming a superhuman, and her "growth" as a character in general, were awful.
That said, all of the issues you brought up could have been fixed with better writing of her character.
Adding Stoneheart in in place of Arya just for your reasons would have been a complete waste of time. You're clearly very attached to the books so you should obviously be aware that as of this point, Stoneheart has had literally no effect on anything of importance in the story. I'll be generous and say she's in or referenced in maybe...15 pages of the books at this point? For all we know Brienne will get out of her noose and chop off Stoneheart's head right there. We have - and probably will continue to have - no idea.
Metal64Game t1_j9yw7tg wrote
If I had to guess what Stoneheart's "ultimate" purpose is (since it seems like audiences everywhere are just obsessed with that stuff)...
Remember that story Catelyn told about how she hated Jon Snow and desperately wanted him dead?
Jon Snow would've likely reunited with Stoneheart at some point, and we'd seen a conclusion their specific dynamic. Either Jon would have to end Stoneheart's revenge spree out of pity, or Stoneheart would remember her promise to the gods, and finally put aside her hatred of Jon Snow and let him live, against all odds.
But I don't know, I'm not payed millions by HBO to deliver a fucking story rather than cut it to shreds.
Jazz_Potatoes95 t1_j9z1dyc wrote
Given that George RR Martin was also getting paid by HBO to deliver a story, and he spectacularly failed in doing so, I'm actually willing to give D&D a bit of slack here.
They were adapting books they loved based on the promise from the author that he'd have the whole thing wrapped up by the time they caught up with him, and instead they started having to write their own material because the author himself found it impossible to untangle all the different threads.
Did they do a great job? No.
Should they really have been put in that position? Also no.
Metal64Game t1_j9z23z5 wrote
GRRM: "I was pretty much out of the loop After GOT Season 4"
"you get the famous creative differences thing – that leads to a lot of conflict."
I'm not willing to give D&D "dany kind of forgot lol, sansa is the smartest character lol, also we killed off barristan selmy because the actor got sad about it" any slack.
They should've given showrunning over to someone willing to carry things the rest of the way with passion and care. It's obvious they just didn't care anymore, they just wanted to film a bunch of cool battle scenes for a giant paycheck and then move onto something else.
HOTD's success paired with keeping GRRM involved only confirms to me that D&D were the main factor in GOT falling apart post S4. They thought they could do better than GRRM, they failed spectacularly, end of story.
31_SAVAGE_ t1_j9ymz75 wrote
from that perspective it just wouldve been a total red herring (it is, as far as we know since the books wont be finished). jon snow is revived without any issue or drawback and nothing ever happens to him.
also thats a pretty weird comparison to those characters btw who are all well-developed and you know, actual characters with conversations and personality. vs zombie lady who doesnt talk and we know nothing of her intentions/motivations other than general revenge, and we follow her because?
Metal64Game t1_j9yp6yk wrote
Lady Stoneheart represents revenge the way GRRM intended: limitless, destructive, unclean.
By giving this moment to Arya in a crowd cheering moment, Arya is no longer a real character on a real journey, she instead became an omniscient, fast travelling, can-do-no-wrong dora the assassin.
They removed the best twist of the books post-season 4, then ruined one of the best characters by offloading all that baggage on Arya, and then completely subverted the way revenge is meant to be portrayed as intended by GRRM.
All this... just because Stoneheart might've been a bit meaningless? Lol. At that point, they should've just removed Oberyn Martell too.
vartoushvorytoush t1_ja1w0pm wrote
"dora the assassin"!! Fuck me silly that's the funniest line of the week.
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