Comments
Petrichor02 t1_iungh8c wrote
Always a possibility, but they have been saying in interviews constantly that there's a reason for the continuity not lining up and that they want to respect the original show's continuity. Doesn't mean the show is immune to bad writing, but a good number of the continuity issues are probably at least partly intentional.
[deleted] t1_iuory6q wrote
There's no easier way to get the fans to stay with it, than those kind of press sentences.
TheSeventhAnimorph t1_iupvwoh wrote
If not for Dean narrating from the "future," part of it could have just been that someone went back in time and changed things, with the divergence point being someone giving John the note and key that he was given in the first episode.
dragonmp93 t1_iuns2lb wrote
I mean, it's a supernatural spin-off on the CW.
KnotSoSalty t1_iuootj0 wrote
It’s really amazing the lengths people will go through to justify their favorite piece of pop culture being shiny and perfect.
Case in point: “making the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs” is obviously just a goof in the SW script that nobody noticed. It’s like running a race in under 12 miles, it makes no sense. But there are a million explanations out there about why “no actually your wrong because…”
biiirdmaaan t1_iuowbg7 wrote
It's not really people deluding themselves so much as apologetics being fun. The No-Prize is the single greatest thing Marvel introduced into pop culture. If you can figure out an in-universe explanation for a writing goof, go for it.
RepresentativeZombie t1_iuoqe0q wrote
And one of them is now canon, because they used the finale of the Han Solo prequel movie to explain that plot hole!
CapnSmite t1_iupjzqu wrote
Not even the finale. That was, like, two-thirds of the way through.
RepresentativeZombie t1_iupnrsv wrote
Oh right, the actual finale was lame though. The Kessel Run and the train scene were easily the best parts of the movie
PerfectZeong t1_iusffe9 wrote
The shooting script is really clear that Han is just making shit up because it sounds good. No other explanation was needed because its not a goof, Han solo is a liar and a bullshitter
GuyKopski t1_iuott2b wrote
That wasn't a goof, people just misunderstood the scene. Han isn't bragging about his ship, he's testing Luke and Obi-Wan to see if they know anything about space travel (because they'll be easier to swindle if they don't).
If you watch Obi-Wan you can tell he sees straight through it. The shooting script actually includes the line "Ben reacts to Solo's stupid attempt to impress them with obvious misinformation."
But people took Han's claim at face value for some reason until the Kessel Run being distance-based became an actual thing.
alano134 t1_iuovo8z wrote
You just...did the thing he mentioned...
GuyKopski t1_iuovvkb wrote
Because he's wrong!
IcyFlounder1204 t1_iuowu4g wrote
Explain the line in the script then
L-System t1_iupjhub wrote
The fact that he had the bring up the script. Something the audience isn't supposed to read, to justify a goof...
IcyFlounder1204 t1_iupw03q wrote
You don't have to read it. You can see Obi-Wan's reaction in the movie. People just conveniently ignore that part.
L-System t1_iupycbf wrote
The reaction can be to his boast alone, doesn't explain it.
PerfectZeong t1_iusg3ho wrote
It's in the shooting script for a new hope, it's not inventing an explanation the explanation is obvious.
KnotSoSalty t1_iup7xha wrote
First, acting cues in scripts are cannon now?
Second, “Ben reacts to Solo’s stupid attempt to impress them with obvious misinformation.” Could just as well refer to Solo’s line taken at face value rather than as an elaborate test.
Third, if it was written as an elaborate test it’s one the audience could only understand if they knew what a parsec was. Instead it went over most peoples heads.
Forth, a Parsec is a unit of length equal to the radius of Earth’s orbit. Which is a very strange unit of measurement for a galaxy far far away.
1Land_1Keep t1_iupc4x1 wrote
>Forth, a Parsec is a unit of length equal to the radius of Earth’s orbit. Which is a very strange unit of measurement for a galaxy far far away.
"He a little confused, but he got the spirit."
You're describing Astronomical Units which, while they are used to define a Parsec, are not the same thing.
KnotSoSalty t1_iuphn42 wrote
Yep, my bad, the radius of the earths orbit is an AU.
Parsec still is related to the radius of the earth’s orbit however.
GuyKopski t1_iupcfr6 wrote
Doesn't really matter if the cue itself is canon, because Obi-Wan's reaction is. I only brought up the cue to show that, even in the 70s when the movie was being written, the intent of the scene was that Han was speaking nonsense.
It is kinda weird that they use Parsec specifically, but Parsecs are a thing that exist in Star Wars (Padme uses the same word in AotC, referring to a distance). That's also a different problem from the one you originally outlined (that Han uses a measurement of distance instead of time).
But I basically just see it as translation convention. The characters use an Earth-based word because the film has them speaking in an Earth-based language, even though the actual in-universe language of Star Wars is Galactic Basic, not English.
violue t1_iuorvzf wrote
It's possible but the showrunner is one of the few SPN writers that actually watched the whole show and gave a shit about canon/character continuity.
Petrichor02 t1_iuovoch wrote
This is the same writer who had a character go to heaven and then get resurrected by "Ezekiel" while heaven was locked down and inaccessible to souls or angels. He's definitely better about canon than a bunch of the Supernatural writers, but he's messed up before. (That said, I'm among those who think the canon departures are going to be at least mostly intentional, though I wouldn't be shocked if something slips by.)
InflamedLiver t1_iun9kqp wrote
I loved the original series, but it's gonna be hard to do a prequel without massive retconning. Before the Winchester boys came along, there were no angels, leviathans, alphas, etc. Just regular old monsters and demons. That and John was written specifically to be kind of an asshole, even if it was consistent with the narrative.
conker223 t1_iunrqir wrote
And even the demons were RARE before the devils gate got opened. It wouldn’t make sense for demons to be as prevalent as the original series. A few big bad ones here and there, but not the common enemy we see in the original series.
cathbadh t1_iuosdmy wrote
> And even the demons were RARE
Rare and terrifyingly powerful.
Julius-n-Caesar t1_iup36gf wrote
Because only strong demons could get out of Hell. The reason they became weak is because Joe Blow Black Eyes just walked out.
turkeygiant t1_iupnjcd wrote
Remember when they encountered a random demon for the first time on the airplane and it was one of the most threatening monsters they faced that season, and then by the mid-late seasons demons were the biggest mook monster in the setting, getting ganked right and left.
NotTroy t1_iuqever wrote
Seasons 6 through 15 were (with varying quality) fan fiction.
Randym1982 t1_iv20s3o wrote
I liked SOME episodes in the later seasons. But the seasons basically became Good Episodes, Bad Season.
They would introduce a really neat idea and then basically not follow up on it at all or have it play out in the background (due to not having the budget). Season 6 with Alpha's and the Weapons of Heaven went nowhere.
HotTubTimeMachine88 t1_iuoeyf1 wrote
Would a Men of Letters show been easier to do?
InflamedLiver t1_iuoizfk wrote
definitely more places they could go with that, both literally and figuratively. Different eras, different places, etc. It's still hard to follow-up a series where it was literally a battle between God, gods, God's immediate family, etc.
But it would still be like making a spinoff from Buffy/Angel about the Watchers. Fascinating in theory, but they could at best be fighting low-to-mid level threats, which after the Buffy/Angel series, would just not have the same stakes.
HotTubTimeMachine88 t1_iusb32p wrote
Damn, if only they found better actors for their attempted spin off years back with the Werewolf mafia family.
cathbadh t1_iuosg6s wrote
Lots of things would have been easier to do. they went with this crap
BohoPhoenix t1_iuoy96u wrote
I'd have liked to see a focus on the Roadhouse. Covering after Mary >!died, but before John died.!<
HotTubTimeMachine88 t1_iusb9j7 wrote
Hell yeah. That would have been awesome. Or even just on John while the kids were young.
forman98 t1_iuny5di wrote
They really should have let the whole thing die. The only thing I hope for in the future would be a team up with Ackles, Padalecki, and Kripke making a new show some years from now. Retcon seasons 6-15 and pick the show up 20 years after the events from Season 5 (which aired in 2010, so 8 more years from now).
I think you could literally have the clichéd sequel that repeats the story from the original but with some changes (like 22 Jump Street) and people would like it. These spinoffs that they do don't work well because people liked the aspect of these two guys hunting monsters. Figure out how to get that going again and you'd have a good show.
Dean is in his early 50's with a family when the same thing that happened to his dad happens to him. He then has to get back into the life while taking care of his kids and basically becomes what his dad was, someone mercilessly hunting the demon that murdered his wife. Turns out the demon that killed his wife is Sam (or someone with Sam's body), returned from Hell. Cue a season or two or good ole Supernatural. Maybe Dean goes on a hunting trip and doesn't come home for a while and his kids have to go after him, leading to some Monster of the Week type episodes. Hit the same story beats they did in the original. Make it a show about people searching the unknown, trying to hunt things and save people. It works best with a smaller cast.
Lord_Xytherius t1_iupwiaz wrote
That actually sounds really cool.
nutsotic t1_iur5eix wrote
Also the fact that John didn't know about any of that shit before his wife was set a blaze
LightThatIgnitesAll t1_iun9jg7 wrote
That explains the plot holes and retconning in S6-15 then. Those seasons took place in an alternate universe.
Petrichor02 t1_iunh3y8 wrote
I actually kind of like that except for the fact that Season 15 destroyed every universe except the one that Season 15 was taking place in. You could easily head-canon Seasons 6-15 as taking place in a different universe, but then that would mean that the universe of Seasons 1-5 wasn't the original universe, and it was destroyed in Season 15... (though you could head-canon that Jack rebuilt all of the destroyed universes after Season 15... but not sure how you could get around the Seasons 1-5 universe not being the original universe issue).
bigfatmatt01 t1_iunnvbm wrote
Ahh but they weren't destroyed till season 15, so a prequel that takes place in one of them would still work.
IcyFlounder1204 t1_iuox2xa wrote
Why would anyone care what happens in the show if they know the universe just gets destroyed?
bigfatmatt01 t1_iup6nl8 wrote
No clue. But what if its a new universe created by Jack instead of Chuck? Broke your brain didn't I?
GeneralZex t1_iupjdul wrote
If the story is good people could have overlooked that. It could have also set the stage for a finale where the universe ceases to exist in epic fashion and then is brought back by Jack (somehow) to at least send the show off on a good note…
An alternate universe storyline would have allowed for cameos that wouldn’t break cannon or chronology. Could have even brought back some fan favorite actors in completely new roles.
Turqoise-Planet t1_iunkk5h wrote
Maybe this show takes place in an alternate alternate universe where nothing was destroyed.
TheSeventhAnimorph t1_iupwi5j wrote
This is unironically the most logical way to resolve inconsistent multiverse depictions (for example, the MCU saying the Darkhold was destroyed in all universes when that isn't the case in the comics). All it takes to maintain consistency is for whoever says something affected all universes to have been an unreliable narrator, whether because they were just wrong and it really only affected some observable subset of universes or because they were lying for one reason or another.
Redlemonginger t1_iunatzg wrote
I watched the trailer, and God it looked absolutely awful.
Supernatural was amazing during seasons 1 and 2, and was good from 3-5. They clearly aren't trying to capture the show at its height.
ron_weedsley t1_iuo8k8s wrote
>and was good from 3-5
Imo 3-5 were actually the peak of the series, and it only got worse after that.
[deleted] t1_iuojt6y wrote
I agree that 6+ weren't nearly as good as 1-5, but they were all a net positive. Some episodes fell flat, the Leviathan arc was hot garbage in a dumpster fire, but each season had a handful of standalone amazing episodes, and IMO 14 and 15 were a lot closer back to their roots, with the power creep pulled way back. I think the only reason the finale was so meh was because of Covid protocols. And Sam's gray hair.
rabid_J t1_iurbedc wrote
> each season had a handful of standalone amazing episodes
I agree with this but I strongly disagree the seasons were still a "net positive": if out of a 22 episode season you're getting 3-5 actually watchably good ones then it's a bad season overall and on a large decline. Watching week to week was painful so I started waiting until the whole season was out because bad episodes become forgettable when you're binging, not having a week to think about it.
At a point I had to just drop the show because it wasn't worth the time investment anymore, even now that it's ended I've so fallen out of love with it I don't care to go back and catch up to watch the finale. Sad because I really enjoyed the early seasons.
Petrichor02 t1_iurmu9u wrote
For me Season 8 was a big improvement over 6 and 7. 10 was a big improvement over 9 (but that's because 9 was terrible). 11 was an improvement over 10. 12 was a sizeable improvement over 11 (though that's because I'm a canon nerd, and 12's continuity was the best the series ever got after Season 5, filling in plot holes and unresolved storylines from Seasons 5-9 and recontextualizing the events of Season 6 in a way that slightly improved that season; the actual story of 12 was a step down from 11 if you shut your brain off for both seasons, but 12 did actually make sense in a way 11 didn't). After that it was basically downhill except that 15 was just slightly better than 14 for me.
Basically the show still has plenty of ups and downs after Season 5, and I think I still agree with the "net positive" thing because most of the later episodes of Supernatural are still entertaining even if they're not up to the standard of the first five seasons. The number of outright bad episodes is less than the number of good or neutral episodes by a long shot.
[deleted] t1_iussnnf wrote
IMO it's not that 3-5 out of 22 are watchably good, it's 1-2 that are amazing, 2-4 that are good and have standout quips/interactions "I killed hitler", then about 15 or so are average, nothing special but are average, worth watching once, and then like 3 or 4 are just Fartbook, for any Letterkenny fans.
Redlemonginger t1_iuoarcw wrote
It lost the horror element at that time. So it lost me a bit.
[deleted] t1_iuwagyn wrote
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Redlemonginger t1_iuwapu8 wrote
I'm really surprised to hear this :p it seemed really hokey to me. It doesn't seem like it has a horror bent to it at all, seems more like the comedic episodes. Am I wrong?
[deleted] t1_iuwaw7m wrote
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Redlemonginger t1_iuwb0ye wrote
That's terrible marketing! I'll check it out then. What streaming service is it on?
[deleted] t1_iuwb4mz wrote
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[deleted] t1_iuwaoom wrote
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Nythoren t1_iunsa5m wrote
Disappointed that they have the couple fighting monsters together. Thought it would be interesting if Mary was off fighting monsters while John is at home, oblivious to what she's off doing. How does she explain the cuts/bruises? How does her family help cover up her disappearing for 2 weeks? Basically how do Hunters hide their activity from non-hunters, and how does that complicate their relationships/friendships?
WolvoMS t1_iuple7w wrote
That would've been cool. True Lies, with demons
thxpk t1_iuogs0h wrote
Like Stargate by the end the Winchesters were all powerful, literally battling God
How can you start afresh with mere demons and having to retcon everything to do so
[deleted] t1_iuok0c0 wrote
Well actually they finished the God battle in season 13. 14 and 15 were more street level hijinx heh.
AshTheDead1te t1_iup09w1 wrote
Are referring to Stargate? Because Supernatural definitely fought God in the last season
[deleted] t1_iup17uk wrote
Coulda swore God and his sister made amends and just left at end of S13. Perhaps I'll have to rewatch.
AshTheDead1te t1_iup3gzi wrote
Yeah….if that was the end of God’s story that would have been great but unfortunately it is not lol
[deleted] t1_iup8k1c wrote
I don't know why I forgot all that but I did just get a month of Netflix to rewatch 13 and 14, even just reading each episode's synopsis is like damn, how'd I forget that. Chuck and Amara this and that everywhere.
Petrichor02 t1_iurm0qe wrote
As far as I'm concerned, it basically is. Season 11 told us that Chuck was God's meatsuit, that Chuck had his own personality that God was adopting too much as his own, and there's just so many things that don't make sense if Chuck is God in human form rather than a human vessel for God. And since Amara starts acting good and appreciating creation after spending time with God, in my head it makes sense that God and/or Chuck would therefore have been influenced by Amara in their time away together. We know how poorly an archangel was able to handle being exposed to Amara, so a human being exposed could absolutely lead to the maniacal egotist we saw as the main villain in Season 15. I see the Chuck of Seasons 14 and 15 as a corrupted Chuck using God's powers and pretending to be God in an ironic mirror of Season 11 where God pretended to be Chuck. I won't bog down this post with the details unless asked, but the story makes so much more sense this way.
AshTheDead1te t1_iurooml wrote
I like that theory except it was only God and Amara in the beginning and he wasn’t corrupted then, so maybe if we go by your theory it’s because she was trapped for so long that hatred and bitterness she had rubbed off on him?
Petrichor02 t1_iursqx3 wrote
That's certainly a possibility. Another possibility is that the hatred just rubbed off on Chuck and not God. Chuck was twisted and was somehow able to wrest control of God's powers for himself.
Or perhaps in the beginning God and the Darkness were separate, but in the Season 11 finale when we see them flying off and swirling together, perhaps they mixed into what was almost a single being for the first time before deciding they had had enough and separated before Season 14, and that mixing allowed them to affect each other in a way they weren't able to in the beginning when they were separate. Under this line of thought, perhaps they were able to mix and separate because both agreed on the mixing and separating willingly. But when they merged in Season 15, Chuck wasn't willing to let Amara separate from him again.
NeonVortex613 t1_iuq6b3c wrote
This happened, but it was S11. They returned in S14-15
PlasticMansGlasses t1_iuqkhb6 wrote
Yeah God was the big bad villain when he returned in Season 15.
militantcookie t1_iur6cll wrote
Weren't the ori gods?
thxpk t1_iup1wqm wrote
No, God was the big baddie of the last season
FreyrFreyja t1_iunp101 wrote
I assume there's gonna be a point where John has to do some big sacrifice thing where he has to leave his memories of Mary and hunting behind in order to save the world from God's Mistake Angels or some shit, and it all just retcons back to how it should be so the showrunners can be smug and pretend like they didn't ruin continuity. Its crazy on-brand for Supernatural, the question is whether they get to that plot point before CW folds and they get canceled.
Petrichor02 t1_iuouy7k wrote
They’ve said they’re going to reveal why things don’t match up in the season finale, so if they’re going the mind wipe route they most likely did just what you said. However, at this point time travel, reality warping , or alternate universe are probably the more likely answers.
CommunistCowboy1939 t1_iuq4upa wrote
Is that what they're calling bad writing now? Spn has always been terrible about continuity, not surprising this mess is the same.
Petrichor02 t1_iurkxfv wrote
Well, not always. Those first four, arguably five, seasons were amazing in the level of attention they paid to their continuity. It only started going off the rails in Season 6. The bad continuity didn't become a commonplace, almost expected, thing until Season 8.
Granted, that's like half the show, so it's understandable that someone might think it's always been the case.
[deleted] t1_iunkp42 wrote
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Gsrj t1_iunuf0h wrote
It was a throw away line in the first episode john says someone gave him a letter about his father then that person just disappeared this is where the timeline change
ViskerRatio t1_iunqcjb wrote
I don't think these 'plot holes' are particularly hard to explain away.
Remember, the mythology we're talking about is based on what was told to very young boys who barely knew their mother by their overly stoic father. The fact that he left out details he might not have thought important is hardly surprising - and that those boys might have made assumptions that weren't entirely correct.
From a storytelling standpoint, it you go strictly by Winchester boys' canon, there isn't much of a story to tell because John and Mary are hunters at different times.
TheBraude t1_iuommu3 wrote
I'm pretty sure there were a couple of time travel episodes in Supernatural that this contradicts.
Also their mother was resurrected and told them about her past.
Itakie t1_iunt9my wrote
Good decision if it's true. Otherwise most enemies would have been kinda weak after years of Supernatural and after 1 or 2 seasons they would have to break the lore anyway to make it more interesting.
GodOne t1_iuoubq7 wrote
Sounds like Gabriel is at work here. Plot checks out for me.
Ok-Photograph-9178 t1_iup6cpa wrote
What happened to “there’ll be peace when you are done…”?
Tsuku t1_iupmmwu wrote
And they absolutely >!did alternate reality angels and demons!< in the original show lol
DarukoSooru t1_iuuiu97 wrote
God f dammit. I wish Supernatural had this production.
butthe4d t1_iv16e3k wrote
Or it might be a sign that the show is ass like most people expected...
goatjugsoup t1_iuoue7c wrote
If it did id care more about watching it
[deleted] t1_iundu0l wrote
Or, and I know this might sound like crazy talk, it's just badly written.