Submitted by HumanOrAlien t3_z0goub in television
cabose7 t1_ix6ajdt wrote
Reply to comment by CostAquahomeBarreler in TV’s True Crime Obsession Is Reaching a Tipping Point by HumanOrAlien
Eh I don't think you're giving westerns enough credit on how broad the genre was stretched, for one thing, it's a genre that has regularly had more artistic ambitions than any movie Marvel and DC has produced.
There's no John Ford of the MCU
arrogantavocado t1_ix6ie0h wrote
There is great art within the superhero genre outside of MCU and DC, but it might be unfair them to compare to John Ford, given that The Searchers is widely considered one of the greatest movies of all time.
Logan is a good exploration of failure and redemption and Legion has some of the most innovative storytelling in recent years.
cabose7 t1_ix6jdye wrote
I mean if we're gonna talk about flexibility of western vs comic book cinema how can we not talk about the heights of the western?
I love Legion, it's a shame that something like that will never be made in Marvel's foreseeable future because there's no room for something that idiosyncratic in the MCU.
arrogantavocado t1_ix6kste wrote
I was going to write something about how Westerns had more time to develop and that The Searchers was the peak of the second wave, but we're currently in the second wave of popularity for superhero movies and it does seem unlikely that there will be anything new of great artistic ambition, given that the MCU more or less has recovered all their old properties. DC might be more experimental given the failure of their cinematic universe, but they're still lacking in artistic merit outside of bright spots like The Dark Knight, even if there are entertaining diversions like Shazam and The Suicide Squad.
TV probably is where art will be for the superhero genre, just like other genres. Forgot to mention that Watchmen is another example of artistic ambition for superhero shows.
cabose7 t1_ix6ls2v wrote
Yeah I agree on pretty much all counts. Watchmen was certainly much more ambitious.
I think it'd do the genre a lot of good if it had a B movie division much like westerns did in their golden age - a good B western could just be a mostly dialogue driven two hander with a couple of locations. I'd love to see a comic book movie like that - God knows actual comic books have done great issues like that.
CptNonsense t1_ix6m65j wrote
There are factually plenty of superhero style B movies. You just don't look for them or see them.
cabose7 t1_ix6mvaw wrote
They don't really get made anymore. No one's making Super or Chronicle these days.
CptNonsense t1_ix6nm0t wrote
Yes they are.
Samaritan and Secret Headquarters came out this year. Thunder Force last year. B superhero B movies. Are you confusing B movies and indie films? If so, whatever the hell this is came out this year.
And those are just the clear cut "definitely superhero" films. When you stretch the genre to "people with superpowers", you get "Everything Everywhere All at Once". This year.
cabose7 t1_ix6prl3 wrote
Samaritan has a $100 million budget, you think that's a B movie?
CptNonsense t1_ix7wcjv wrote
Pick at what you want, you are still wrong. You going to tell me the Accident Man sequel and Corrective Measures aren't B movies, too?
Never mind that's just superhero movies.
cabose7 t1_ix80ct1 wrote
The B movie system as it was for westerns in their hay day doesn't exist anymore. They were theatrical films with low to modest budgets but had access to studio resources and up and coming talent that weren't ready for A pictures.
Jesse Van Johnson makes DTV films, and he's actually pretty good at directing even if he rarely gets a good script. He's never gonna get the next Chris Evans or whatever who needs to cut his teeth before becoming Captain America. It's actually the opposite, Johnson gets stars at the end of their careers.
I'm lamenting that superhero films don't have a true B movie system.
CptNonsense t1_ix831ag wrote
>The B movie system as it was for westerns in their hay day doesn't exist anymore.
Do we are just being disingenuous now, ok.
>I'm lamenting that superhero films don't have a true B movie system.
I bet that died after the paramount accords in 48, so no shit.
ahyuknyuk t1_ix7bxi3 wrote
You could also make a decent western on a tight budget. You cant make a decent low budget superhero movie because of all the CGI, set pieces and costumes they need. That makes them much less flexible as a genre than westerns.
elizabnthe t1_ix7npki wrote
I don't think that's true, its just not overly common.
CW shows are low budget and whilst largely declined there was some good seasons and episodes in amongst them.
Not all superhero powers have to be budget intensive either.
CptNonsense t1_ix6lwqf wrote
>Eh I don't think you're giving westerns enough credit on how broad the genre was stretched,
Yes they are. You can have a comedy western or a drama western. That's about it back in the 50s and 60s. You wern't getting a genre mixed sci fi western for multiple reasons. A comic book movie can be a comedy or a drama, or it can be western. Or it can be a sci fi western.
Comic book movies are beyond more flexible than Westerns because Westerns are limited to a specific style where comic book movies limitation is "has comic book characters (real or imagined)"
cabose7 t1_ix6mmic wrote
I mean you say that but mainstream comic films are largely just hero's journey action films. Sure you can change the aesthetics of the setting but the actual story beats will be largely the same. No one's pumping out adaptations of more character driven comics like Ghost World or anything along those lines.
You think DC or Marvel would ever make a film like the original 3:10 to Yuma, which is mostly just Glenn Ford and Van Heflin exchanging superb dialogue in a room?
CptNonsense t1_ix6npjz wrote
>No one's pumping out adaptations of more character driven comics like Ghost World or anything along those lines.
You not looking for or watching them doesn't mean people aren't making them. Still.
Skavau t1_ix6su2g wrote
Do you consider Neo-Westerns westerns? Or Weird West?
CptNonsense t1_ix7x24b wrote
Sure, but how many of those did they make in the 40s through 60s?
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