Having A Hard Time With Alice in Boderland

Submitted by grr_not_me t3_zyogs7 in television

Edit: It was explained to me that this is anime and this is what happens in anime. Cool. Not for me. Edit again: Show is not for me but I'm not ruling out the genre.

It just keeps reminding me that the creator, show runner, director, writer, whatever, is assuming that the audience are idiots. Has anyone else had this issue? An actor shouldn't have to have either flashbacks or soliloquies explaining their feelings to convey what they are thinking. Flashbacks and soliloquies can obviously be effective. Not here. And it constantly happens. I assume they're trying to build the backstory and add to understanding of the character. That is fine. I think this show goes beyond this. Does it stop? Do they create enough backstory that the characters don't have to always explain to the audience what they are feeling? I think the premise is great. I, almost certainly unfairly, went in thinking of comparisons to Squid Game. I think the premise is completely different everything in a good way. I'm going to give it a while to see if I change my mind, but I'll probably just google it a week or so from now. Ha.

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Liramuza t1_j27ntre wrote

“You can’t just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!”

  • Robot Devil, Futurama S4E18
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anasui1 t1_j270cqd wrote

welcome to the amazing world of anime/manga

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grr_not_me OP t1_j271cyc wrote

Succinctly done. Nice. I didn't (still don't) know what anime/manga is beyond that it's like cartoons and that it's from or maybe only truly can be made in Japan. I didn't know this was anime. Again, I thought anime was cartoons? and if so, is that a revolutionary part of the show? The first live action anime? I didn't know that anime characters are known for all the explaining. It's what they do. I did a few minutes of opening google links to explain some things and un-explain others. No need for any more explanations. I can find the answers. Anime's not for me. Oh well.

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shiny-snorlax t1_j276za7 wrote

The Netflix show isn't anime. It's a live-action adaptation of a manga. Apparently it's a fairly faithful adaptation.

As for the flashbacks and soliloquy, I didn't think it was that excessive. Each flashback is like a minute (or less) long and explains something about a character. Shows generally benefit from a "show, don't tell" approach to character-building. Idk how else you're supposed to learn a character's backstory without either a flashback or a character just explaining "this is what I used to do," which would get real boring real quick if everyone just did that.

Admittedly, some flashbacks get reused though, which is pretty annoying ngl

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grr_not_me OP t1_j27aloc wrote

Thanks. In that analogy, my opinion is it over shows and over tells. Which I think I'm beginning to understand the root cause for why I'm not enjoying it.

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Smack-9 t1_j2766c9 wrote

Anime is strictly speaking animation. AiB is a live action adaptation of a manga.

Theres similarities - anime can often deal with heightened emotion and melodrama, same as manga adaptations.

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LaundryArt t1_j2afg2h wrote

Anime, more often than not, is not realistically written with characters that act human. You'll find that this extends to some Japanese movies unrelated to anime in that actors perform over the top and highly exaggerated to a cartoonist degree. Although I have watched a lot of anime, I can understand why someone would not have the patience to sift through the garbage of poor acting/writing to get to the hidden gems.

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Smack-9 t1_j27608d wrote

Alice in Borderland is a manga adaptation, yes, and manga will have flashbacks and character backgrounds dropped into the middle of plot proceedings.

Other media does this too. Breaking Bad will often have flashbacks in the cold open.

Presenting things in strictly chronological order can and will undercut a lot of tension. If we see the protagonist set up his dramatic reversal ahead of time, you lose the drama.

Its OK if its not for you, but there's real storytelling value to flashbacks.

As for the "everyone is an idiot" thing: Its really hard to write a character who is smarter than the writer. 😅

The 'battle of wits' genre kind of runs on a cycle of laying down the rules for a scenario, then MC finding a way to twist circumvent or beat the rules. Some shows do this better than others.

I find it helps if you remember that you, the viewer, have distance from the situation in the show and sometimes more information than the characters do. Nobody is a perfectly rational actor operating on a sphere in a vacuum; the characters are often tired, stressed, anxious, unsure who to trust, or otherwise not thinking clearly.

The Beach arc of AiB is pretty good about this: Yes, everyone should chill the fuck out and solve the murder, but, uh, there's other factors going on that makes that difficult.

A lot of these confrontations are as much ideological as they are intellectual. Often a scenario is designed to have character's ideals questioned more than they are to make perfectly logical sense. Its a thing that happens in melodrama. You either like it or you don't.

Part of the fun of these shows is the power fantasy of being the smartest guy in the room. The trick is to hide the idiot ball or at least not deploy it too liberally.

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stargate-command t1_j2c0yau wrote

If you are an American tv viewer and do not see the storytelling power and function of flashbacks… I’d like to introduce you to a little show called LOST.

Not a perfect story throughout, but man is it some masterful storytelling.

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grr_not_me OP t1_j27b188 wrote

Thanks. For me, I'm thinking it's too many flashbacks that repeat the same message with no advancement. I thought each flashback in Breaking Bad served a purpose. There may or may not be anime manga I find interesting. I'll pass on this one. Edit: I don't know who's down voting you. I upvoted because you taught me a lot.

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Smack-9 t1_j27hais wrote

Thanks! I tend to talk out of my arse a lot so I'm glad it helped. :)

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Simply_Epic t1_j2886zf wrote

I’d say every flashback serves a purpose. Yes, it likes to repeat a lot of themes, but the flashbacks tend to be important to either plot or character development. Sometimes both. There are a lot of character actions and behaviors that would make little sense without the flashbacks. This story is not nearly as much about what’s happening in the moment in the games as it is about the characters. Who they are now, who they were before, and who they will become. Early on in the show I get how they might seem pointless, but as the show goes on I think the purpose of the flashbacks becomes more and more clear.

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Visco0825 t1_j2a58nb wrote

Have you ever scene the show lost? Flashbacks are effective for shows where the characters are in completely different scenarios than they previously were. They provide depth and contrast and a method to show growth and change both in the world and in the character.

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JGyllenhaals t1_j2706tn wrote

Just spoil it for yourself.

Even Battle Royale was dramatic at times. You have to offset the heavy carnage with emotional tenderness to heighten the totality of their hell.

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Visco0825 t1_j2a4tr9 wrote

A few things here. First is that it’s a Japanese based show which tend to be a little more dramatic than American shows. But more to it, Americans are far less likely to talk about their emotions. When you have people constantly open up and dramatic, it’s strange.

Also using flashbacks as a tool for characterization isn’t a new thing, especially when a set of characters are transported to a new place. Lost did this very effectively with half the show essentially being flashbacks.

Finally, this show is also different than battle Royale or squid game. The material it’s based off of came out before squid game. But while squid game is a critique on class, Alice in borderland explores themes of humanity and mortality.

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JGyllenhaals t1_j2a7tc3 wrote

Battle Royale was only used a comparison as that was just carnage with bits of human decency peppered throughout.

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taytaypopo123 t1_j274zlg wrote

I guess its like a bunch of monologues. Definitely comes from anime but especially manga and comic books where the characters have to monologue a lot as that’s the only way for internal dialogue. It’s jarring but you get used to it.

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cold_ravioli t1_j28111i wrote

There is anime/manga out there that doesn’t do this, but it is unfortunately common.

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CokeMooch t1_j27ns13 wrote

What flashbacks? I’m on episode 7 and they showed maybe like, one or two? I honestly didn’t notice it at all.

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grr_not_me OP t1_j293ob9 wrote

I started episode 3 and a girl was having the same flashbacks about what she did to move up the corporate ladder and that she will do the same thing in whatever this is. Then, she said all those same things out loud to herself. The fighter guy did the same thing about the woman he loves. They provided no new information. They repeated things we already learned in episode 1 and 2. Maybe I missed some plot advancement from the flashbacks and talking to yourselves. Which, I now understand to be common in this genre. From people explaining this stuff to me, I'm not ruling out the genre, I'm just thinking this one show isn't for me.

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CokeMooch t1_j295rt6 wrote

Wow man, if that’s all it took to upset you don’t ever watch Naruto.

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openew t1_j270p36 wrote

Its a trope of manga/anime. Just go with it. AiB gets better as S1 progresses. Same with S2.

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naturessilence t1_j29c1zs wrote

So you haven't watched much Anime...The story unfolds in typical Anime style. It's a fantastic show but very much sticks to a lot of tropes from the genre. That includes characters very much being in their own head and hearing their inner dialogue.

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Csub t1_j281p23 wrote

Watching the first episode of the 2nd season I was immediately reminded this was indeed based on an anime/manga (something I don't really watch/read). Like the characher casually fast walking away from machine gun fire with hands in pockets.

​

I thought the season was okay, but there were some really dumb things in it (like the King of Spades being this demigod) and I didn't really like the last 2 episodes (with the last one dragging scenes on and on and on).

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Chlodio t1_j29p6w1 wrote

It is actually based on a manga, not the anime, which was just a 3-episode advertisement.

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EvenBetterCool t1_j2aogi3 wrote

It is 100% a culture thing. This is how a lot of storytelling is done in asian entertainment.

You really do get used to it, but unless you want to watch more things like it - don't force it.

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stargate-command t1_j2c0j4h wrote

I enjoyed it, but 100% understand what you mean. For me., because I watched it dubbed, I chalk a lot of things up to that. If you did the same, and didn’t watch in original language, I think it is a factor. Things come across a bit differently, and translations are imperfect.

Definitely think they could have tightened it up by removing a ton of monologues, and flashbacks (though I quite like most of the flashbacks as they tended to reveal something about the characters that would be impossible otherwise).

I basically tend to go in expecting that any show I watch dubbed will come across a but strange, so I set my mind to watch around those oddities.

It too went in because I read the synopsis and wanted something like squid game. Battle royale type things are one of my favorite genres, so the first episode got me hooked. It didn’t maintain that level of quality for long…. But the end of season 2 was satisfying.

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grr_not_me OP t1_j2c2cu1 wrote

I watched in original. I have experienced the same issues with dubbed other stuff.

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stargate-command t1_j2d7lob wrote

You understand Japanese? That’s dope. Good for you. Unless you are Japanese, in which case you understand English… and that’s dope, good for you.

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grr_not_me OP t1_j2dql36 wrote

No, not a language I know. Original with subtitles. I've tried watching dubbed over shows before. I much prefer subtitles, even if the voice over person might do a good job. Sorry for any confusion. I watch all shows, even ones in my original language with subtitles.

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unrealflaw t1_j281tzl wrote

I skipped all the lovey dovey heartfelt shit and flashbacks. I get it, you're in love but you need to go through more shit to understand it, now kill some fools in some fucked up ways or I'm gonna get upset.

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jedo89 t1_j2amvli wrote

Anime does this there could legit be 4-5 episodes of one fight in an anime and characters just in their head having dialogues lol

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flashgreer t1_j2b74w6 wrote

What do you think of a non trans woman playing a ttans woman in the show?

−2

grr_not_me OP t1_j2b7js3 wrote

Don't see how that affects anything but here's my attempt at an answer.

  1. I didn't know that was the case
  2. If that is the case, I still don't know which character you're talking about
  3. I have no issue with it. I should have started and ended with this thought.

If I'm missing something, please let me know.

Edit: I think I can see some viewpoints that would have issues with it. I guess my viewpoint is that I hope I see the character, not the real person in fictional shows. the talent can best suspend my understanding that the person is acting and replace it with what the person wants me to believe.

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flashgreer t1_j2b7xhp wrote

If you haven't finished the show yet stop reading. Kuina played by Aya Asahina is portrayed in the show as MtF Trans. I only wonder because some people are picky about that sort of thing.

−1

Cstone812 t1_j28xrhp wrote

It’s funny how most the Korean shows are vastly superior to the English ones acting and storytelling both.

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grr_not_me OP t1_j2941rc wrote

Is it a Korean show just with Japanese people in Japan? I'll have to look that up. I agree that Koreans have been killing it lately. I read some article about how it's not a coincidence, but I can't remember it.

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unimpressedbunny t1_j29x6y6 wrote

I like AiB but It's not Korean at all. It's true that Korean media has been hugely successful in Japan since the early 00s and there is more collaboration happening now with the younger generations, since those who remember Japanese occupation are all quite old (80+).

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