Submitted by Khysamgathys t3_124n0s0 in todayilearned
Reply to comment by SexyOldManSpaceJudo in TIL that in Chinese Folk Religion, a mortal human being could ascend into godhood not through the decisions of a clergy/church, but by the sheer number of people who believe that their extraordinary achievements led to apotheosis, which forced Confucian/Taoists clerics to canonize a person as a God. by Khysamgathys
Actually no, that is what the elves believe and that is in part because of their hatred of humanity and mortality
Talos achieved CHIM which makes him divine by his (or rather "their") own merit
Did he achieve CHIM? I find it far more likely he just used Numidium to become a god. Besides, isn't achieving CHIM means he's above a god? Does he even have a planet?
>Did he achieve CHIM?
Yes
>You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.
From The Many-Headed Talos
Also:
>CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled
From the Mythic Dawn commentaries Vol. 3
As to what the nature of godhood, Talos' own godhood, its relation with the "planets" and CHIM vs "true" godhood; well, we just don't have a simple definitive answer
Also, we don't know how or who did it for Talos to ascend
>From The Many-Headed Talos
Isn't that unofficial?
>From the Mythic Dawn commentaries Vol. 3
That's a bit more credible, provided you believe that Markan Camoran (or whatever his name was) is really thousands of years old.
>As to what the nature of godhood, Talos' own godhood, its relation with the "planets" and CHIM vs "true" godhood; well, we just don't have a simple definitive answer.
According to a book, Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr tried to achieve CHIM but failed.
>Isn't that unofficial?
Nope, it gets quoted in Skyrim by Heimskr (the Talos priest preaching in Whiterun)
>That's a bit more credible, provided you believe that Markan Camoran (or whatever his name was) is really thousands of years old.
You don't need to take everything in the commentary as truth, but there is little reason to doubt the bit about CHIM and the transformation of Cyrodiil jungles
>Nope, it gets quoted in Skyrim by Heimskr (the Talos priest preaching in Whiterun)
A part of it does, which might be a reference than actual canon.
>You don't need to take everything in the commentary as truth, but there is little reason to doubt the bit about CHIM and the transformation of Cyrodiil jungles
Provided it isn't written by someone born hundreds of years after Tiber Septim died/became a god/whatever.
>A part of it does, which might be a reference than actual canon.
To be clear, the part that is in Skyrim is:
>Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.
Which is precisely the part about Talos having achieved CHIM
Fair. Although I still doubt that somewhat, as apparently "normal" gods can also reshape the world. Or rather the towers can, the original one (the adamantine tower?) was created by the gods.
>As to what the nature of godhood, Talos' own godhood, its relation with the "planets"
We do kind of know that. When Mannimarco becomes a god at the end of Daggerfall (via the Numidium), he does get a planet, the same as the rest of the Divines. It's not weird that Lorkhan doesn't have a planet, as he was killed. Although you could say that Mannimarco was technically dead too, being a lich.
What is CHIM?
Basically, apotheosis caused by realizing the true nature of the Elder Scrolls universe and simultaneously having a sense of self strong enough to not get retconned out of existence by the knowledge
CHIM = Learning you exist in a videogame and gaining dev access.
The Elder Scrolls version of apotheosis.
You can think of it as becoming lucid in a dream (and gaining some control/agency), while knowing that the dream belongs to someone else.
He basically mantled Lorkhan, similar to how the Hero of Kvatch mantles Sheogorath in the Shivering Isles DLC except Tibby S maintained his personality & didnt literally become Lorkhan
Does Lorkhan even have a sphere/identity? He is the god of the dead in Nordic mythology, but Tiber Septim probably believed in Cyrodilic mythology. Also, him becoming Lorkhan would be very "symmetrical" seeing as Lorkhan is the 9th divine.
Lorkhan is just the Eleven representation of the god. In Nedic/Imperial/Cyrodillic mythology he is known as Shezzar
I know, but my point stands. He seems to only have power in Nordic myth. Also, it's Shezarr :P
I mean, between Mankar Camoran and Lorkhan's literal, metaphysical heart said to be the indestructible heart of Nirn itself, my take is that Nirn was Lorkhan's plane. That his sphere is mortals, with him being the prototypical aedra, ancestor spirit of all Nirn. The first to die.
Which plays perfectly into why the elves hate Talos and everything he represents, as long-lived mortals aspiring to lost immortality.
>That his sphere is mortals
Isn't there a god of mortals already that was worshipped by the Atmorans?
>ancestor spirit of all Nirn.
Nirn was created when he tricked the other gods into creating Nirn. That's why his heart was ripped out. Besides, the rest of the gods' realms are in Aetherius. So is the Hall of Valor, which is Shor's realm.
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>Isn't there a god of mortals already that was worshipped by the Atmorans?
If you mean Orkey, he's the god of mortality, not of mortals. Malicious and seeking to end life, Orkey represents death and the dead. Not those who live. Contrast to Shor, the dead god and former chief of the pantheon, Atmoran/Nordic god-champion of men and mortals against the mer and malicious gods alike.
>Besides, the rest of the gods' realms are in Aetherius. So is the Hall of Valor, which is Shor's realm.
Sovngarde and the Hall of Valor aren't Shor's realm any more than they're Tsun's or Alduin's. They're the glorious afterlife and the chief of gods, champion of mortals, receives a throne among dead heroes. The rest of the gods' realms are in Aetherius in the same way as Nirn is. Oblivion surrounds Nirn and the stars and sun are holes in the fabric of Oblivion to Aetherius, which surrounds Oblivion. The gods are their realms and spheres in TES and the remainders of the Aedra hang in the sky of Mundus, planets drifting in Oblivion same as Nirn.
>Nirn was created when he tricked the other gods into creating Nirn. That's why his heart was ripped out.
Created out of what? And why couldn't the other gods destroy Lorkhan's heart, why settle for ripping it out and throwing it down after trying?
Lorkhan recognized the truth of the Aurbis, that all is one even as one is itself. That even the gods were baser emanations of creation, of what creator there might be, ever static in their spheres despite their mind and agency. That despite his divinity he was trapped by his immutable nature. But that despite his nature limiting him, it also gave him agency. Lorkhan recognized that limitation and struggle breed growth and learning, that limitation is potential, that he could act because there were limits to himself which could hypothetically be exceeded. That the only way to truly be better and to better his kin was to reduce them so that they might have room to grow and learn, to be what they are not. To become more than themselves. To truly understand and fulfill their natures as both one with and independent from the godhead.
On the promise of betterment the Aedra laid themselves low, the Earthbones gave shape and form, and intricate lesser spirits were created within Mundus, within Lorkhan. Mortals, spirits of many spheres. Mortals, feeble and stupid and complexly bound by the world around them. Mortals, fragments of gods as much as the children of gods, free to grow and to learn and to escape the shackles of creation Lorkhan saw in the Aurbis. The other gods and he were one in multitudes, mixed and diluted into beings so helpless and limited and multifaceted that they could become more than the whole of creation, more than anything that came before, more than the sum of their parts.
When the other gods realized they would very literally give themselves to Nirn, that they would be cleaved and bound and lose themselves to grow, it was already too late to leave or take revenge for many. They bound themselves to Nirn, to mortals, and ultimately to Lorkhan so that they would learn, and Lorkhan had planned to make them learn. To destroy his heart would require they destroy mortal life, Nirn, and themselves.
It's worth noting here, Shor is also canonically the Childrens' God. God of new life, of those born of the sacrifice of beings yet greater, ignorant and weak yet free to learn and grow with new eyes upon the shoulders of those before them. Neat parallel.
>If you mean Orkey
Yeah, he was the one I was thinking of.
>Created out of what?
No one knows.
>And why couldn't the other gods destroy Lorkhan's heart, why settle for ripping it out and throwing it down after trying?
Why not destroy Mannimarco? Because they probably can't. Either because they don't have enough power or because they are simply prevented by a natural law or something. It's also possible that they did kill Lorkhan and he only "lives" in the Nordic pantheon. It's heavily hinted that the gods are shaped by whatever religion views them. There's also Lunar Lorkhan.
There's also this: "Shor created the realm of Sovngarde with his clever magic long ago, but the trickster god has faded from our world. [...] He may even rule the realm, choosing heroes to honor according to his whims." from The Road to Sovngarde.
> Why not destroy Mannimarco?
That'd be the part where they don't have practically any agency anymore. They gave themselves up for Nirn, and Mannimarco is a product of Nirn. One who took advantage of a moment of divine weakness, no less. A lot of things go out the window when time itself is bound and broken, and now Akatosh is bound to protect Mannimarco as he is.
"We have all the power to rip your still-beating heart out of your chest but somehow not to crush it," against, "Holy shit, I'm literally tied up by the bones of the world right now and consequently being smacked around by focused semi-divine energy so hard that I've forgotten which direction is forward or how many timelines there are, let me gather myself. Hey, wait, who's this guy? I made him permanent? Shit, sorry Arkay."
>It's also possible that they did kill Lorkhan and he only "lives" in the Nordic pantheon.
Not really? The Bretonic and Cyrodilic faiths both view him as an active force. The Reachfolk believe Lorkh comes among them in times of great need. And even the Khajiit, who clearly see what they believe to be the corpse of Lorkhaj hanging in the sky, also believe he was cursed to walk Nirni after having his heart ripped out.
>There's also Lunar Lorkhan.
There is, and there's also the Dark Moon and worship of the moons in multiple cultures as independent, also-dead gods. And the fact that Fal Droon, the author of The Lunar Lorkhan, is also author of a book which tries to explain away Dragon Breaks as bad timekeeping and calendar mixups. Which... just going to point to Mannimarco again here.
>There's also this:[...]
I'd argue that creating pocket realms isn't the same as a realm being a divine plane. Specifically the use of 'clever magic' to create it calls that into question - it wasn't always there, a part of Shor, it's something Shor specifically made. Shalidor created a pocket realm with his clever magic, that's not a high bar. Seems on point that the god of mortals would build a consolation prize for those who struggle valiantly as he wants but fall short regardless. Every spirit can't be the next godhead, after all.
Sovngarde also isn't located on Shor, even if you believe the Lunar Lorkhan that Masser and Secunda would have been Shor/Lorkhan. You can still go to Masser and Secunda, the Khajiit conduct religious rites on Masser and Reman II personally oversaw the landing on Secunda. Sovngarde can't be Shor's plane unless we assume divine planes pass into Aetherius on their deaths, or that his clever magic completely changed how his divine plane worked and unbound it from Oblivion where the rest of the divine planes and his own body still lay.
>It's heavily hinted that the gods are shaped by whatever religion views them.
Well yeah. Kind of goes hand-in-hand with the OP and what I was saying about mortals being weak with incredible potential - enough to empower or change gods by sheer belief, to become gods or even greater by the same.
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