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jhalh t1_iuhuin7 wrote

Yes, Western world is synonymous with Europe and North America not Africa regardless of the distance west of any location therewithin. I am Arab, Iraqi by lineage, and I have always found it very interesting how advanced we were in the past, long ago. I would be more than happy for the Arab world to take the title, but if I’m being honest with myself I also know that the schools of that time were centered around religion first, and everything else second. While we did at the time make great strides in mathematics and other sciences to a lesser degree, the teachings were not at the forefront, or even near equal, to the purpose of said schools. I happen to have been taught a good deal about the era during my time in university, and I was brought up learning that Al-Qarawiyyin was the oldest university, but after learning the nuances I absolutely agree that Bologna takes that title. It turned into what meets the standards to be called a university hundreds of years before Al-Qaraqiyyin shifted from being a religious school with some mathematics and science sprinkled in here and there.

I, an Arab who was brought up believing that the Arab world brought forth the worlds first university, put any genealogical pride aside in the face of evidence that showed that things are more nuanced than what I had been taught growing up, and because words should be used precisely. It’s not about Eurocentric views, it’s about nuance and definitions.

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selune07 t1_iuihlki wrote

I definitely understand your point about schools in the Islamic world teaching religion first, but European schools also taught religion as the primary means by which we could understand the world. It was not until the 1700s that Europeans and Arab scholars alike started taking religion out of science. European universities were run by religious scholars and were just as much influenced by religion as Islamic schools at the time. Both Christians and Muslims used holy texts to understand the natural world until Enlightenment thought started moving education in a more secular direction. Even today, many western universities are still influenced by and even run by religious groups, just look at the many Christian universities in the US that require classes on Christianity as part of their curriculum. I just feel it's unfair to dismiss Al-Qarawiyyin on the basis of it focusing on religion when most European universities did the same for centuries. I teach AP world history and even as the curriculum has changed over the years to be more inclusive of non-western civilizations, it's still very much biased in favor of Western civilizations, which have also influenced how history is taught in the places they have colonized.

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jhalh t1_iuilj7a wrote

I agree with almost everything you just said, but there is an important distinction here - Islam and Christianity have very different views on how to approach other knowledge to be adopted. Islam by its nature has no distinction between personal and public belief, it has only been within the last century that some Muslim majority countries have allowed their governments to function secularly and separate from the personal religious belief. While Europe at the time suffered from religious dogmatism, there is ample proof that there where institutions that delved deeply into many different subjects and even if the Catholic Church always found ways to make any accepted knowledge fit within its canon Islamic nations where and have since been far more rigid in keeping all studies under a more narrow umbrella that could not deviate from the established Islamic teachings of the Quran. One of the things that Muslims claim as proof that Islam must be more true than Christianity is the fact that Christianity has always adapted and changed the meaning further and further from the more literal interpretations while the Muslim world has remained steadfast in the rejection to any schools of thought which challenge the established meaning and teachings. The Muslim world has had little choice to adapt more within the last century given the advancements that the world has seen, and some Muslims will now accept things like evolution. The Catholic Church time and time again did push back against teachings that went contrary to what the church said before giving in, but the teaching still actually took place, that was simply not the case in the Muslim world because they would have been called apostates and killed; while there are plenty of examples of that happening in Europe, it was not even close to the same way that took, and in some places, still takes places in the Muslim world. While schools around a millennium ago in Muslim nations did dabble in mathematics and slightly the sciences, they did not have the same variety of subjects and varied schools of thought as those in Europe.

Western academia has certainly put a western twist on much of history, and that obviously bothers someone like me (an Arab born into a family made up of mostly Muslims), but I accept when there are clear differences that should be acknowledged. Our history is just as Dark as that of white Europeans, we pioneered the African slave trade and left the shambled continent ripe for Europeans to exploit, we colonized areas of Asia and Africa, we waged war and conquest of vast swathes of land. Like you being bothered by the Western academia putting their western twist on things, which also bugs me, I also acknowledge that that is something all cultures do as if you were to have a discussion about history with many Arabs they would put their twist on it as well. My goal is to avoid that as much as possible and look at timelines and facts in order to be as objective as possible, and part of that is accepting the importance of using specific words for specific things and learning the nuances involved in so many of these issues.

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