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Poggse t1_j5s93xd wrote

I don't think they're all crazy. I think a lot of them are hypochondriacs and overly dramatic. Just like people are in every aspect of life.


Lyx4088 t1_j5sfhbo wrote

May you continue to be so blessed with your health you’re able to continue believing this. Medicine is constantly learning new things about the human body, identifying ways things go wrong, developing better testing and treatment, etc. Doctors are humans, and the sheer number of diseases out there coupled with unusual or atypical presentations means sometimes even diagnosable issues are missed far too long because it wasn’t on the doctor’s radar. Gender and ethnicity can absolutely play into this as well. Heart attacks can look different in women than men. Skin disorders can look different depending on the melanin in your skin, and it doesn’t always occur to a doctor to factor that in when they’re evaluating a skin condition. Despite having disorders with diagnostic criteria, sometimes the testing for them is garbage like with narcolepsy and idiopathic hypersomnia.

Personally? I spent over 15 years complaining to multiple doctors I couldn’t stay awake doing things like driving at night (because I’m not a careless idiot I avoided it to avoid hurting/killing myself or others), staying awake during movies, falling asleep in classes, struggling with insomnia at night, having weird episodes of feeling like a whacky wavy inflatable arm tube man, etc. It took 15 years for a therapist to go hold up this is not normal. Have you ever been evaluated for narcolepsy?? A sleep study and MSLT later and 15 years of why I can’t stay awake are explained. I literally had to find a sleep clinic that would do consultations and set up a study if deemed necessary because my primary at the time wouldn’t refer me anywhere despite having all of these symptoms and an epsworth score that put me in the severe sleepiness range. The evidence was right there and I was even given an appropriate screener that should have resulted in immediate referral to a sleep medicine specialist but got an eh I’m not too worried. Want to know the side effects of having fragmented sleep? Increased depression and anxiety symptoms, brain fog, increased sensitivity and less capacity to modulate pain, propensity for obesity, heart issues, blood pressure issues, and a whole host of other really problematic health issues. Sleep disorders are horrifically under diagnosed and can play a huge role in worsening and leading to other chronic health issues.

The testing for narcolepsy and idiopathic hypersomnia though? It’s shit. Two different sleep medicine specialists can read the MSLT study and come out with a different perception of any REM episodes, and the same patient can take the test on two different days and have wildly different results. It’s only within the last 10-15 years that science has learned narcolepsy type 1 (that is the one with cataplexy where people lose muscle tone experiencing sudden strong emotions because their brain triggers a REM state) is likely an autoimmune disorder leading to an orexin deficiency. They’ve known about narcolepsy for decades and have studied it for a really long time, but very little was known (and even less is known about narcolepsy type 2 let alone idiopathic hypersomnia), mediocre treatments to control the symptoms have been available, and there is still not a great diagnostic tool to identify it. And these are with specialists. GPs are rarely even looking for it or sleep disorders in general unless someone is complaining of snoring at night and being exhausted.

Did you know a symptom of hypothyroidism can be foot pain? It has to do with how the thyroid hormone impacts tissues in the body, but that foot pain can present at sub clinical levels on standard testing. Foot pain is a pretty common problem, but doctors rarely think thyroid related to it without glaring other symptoms. Very low vitamin D levels, which in the era of wear sunscreen and stay out of the sun to prevent skin cancer, can cause hellacious nerve pain that presents more similarly to other disorders. It took over a year and multiple trips to the ER with trigeminal neuralgia like pain for a doctor to finally test my sister’s vitamin D levels. They were critically low. She loves being outside in the sun and we grew up in a very sunny state. There was no reason for doctors to think vitamin D with her tan. Someone finally said let’s just check it anyway.

So yeah. Presenting with health complaints a doctor can’t figure out doesn’t mean something isn’t wrong. And saying those patients are being overly dramatic hypochondriacs diminishes what people are going through and how they’re suffering.


Poggse t1_j5snve7 wrote

Your personal example isn't representative of the larger population


OneObi t1_j5spu1a wrote

And yours are?


Poggse t1_j5sxlqr wrote

It's not my examples. It's the world. Ask any doctor 🤷‍♂️


Lyx4088 t1_j5tcdbm wrote

It’s not just me. Studies back up women take longer to get diagnosed than men for the same disease. By years.

Many diseases just take a fucking eternity to get diagnosed properly.

Endometriosis is one that takes forever:

Autoimmune diseases can be really tricky to diagnosis and can take a ridiculously long time, sometimes upwards of 10 years for some people:

The average time for diagnosis of a rare disease is 4-5 years, and during that time it’s often hell for patients:

And since I mentioned my own person story that you shit on in favor of anecdotal evidence from your doctor, narcolepsy takes on average 7 years to diagnose from symptom onset:

Do a tiny bit of research and you can see your bold statements about hypochondriacs and people being overly dramatic are dead wrong and your doctor is absolutely ignorant about what patients go through and likely part of the problem.


Poggse t1_j5ukgfw wrote

Because they don't keep statistics on fakers 🤣

You don't know how stats work. That's fine.


Lyx4088 t1_j5us7hv wrote

I’m well aware of how stats work. Are you? I don’t think so, because if you were, you wouldn’t be saying quite literally millions of people are faking and putting themselves in enormous medical debt just to support the faking. People don’t work like that. Not having an easy to diagnose illness doesn’t mean you’re faking. And things like autoimmune diseases, endometriosis, heart issues, cancers, etc all have hard metrics to point to in order to support the diagnosis. Genetic diseases have literal genetic differences you can point to and say this is why your body is having issues because you’re not manufacturing this enzyme, your body can’t process this food item, this biochemical pathway is making a mistake at this point, etc.

Also, there are statistics out there for people faking. It’s pegged at less than 1% of patients, or in practical numbers, 6.8 patients per 100,000 patients. That is far, far less than people who struggle to get diagnosed.


Poggse t1_j5usl61 wrote

If a patient complains enough, the doctor will prescribe something. That's why drug reps make more in a year than many people make in a lifetime. Doesn't mean the patients have actual issues.

It's a self perpetuating system


Lyx4088 t1_j5utbbm wrote

A doctor prescribing something doesn’t mean insurance will cover it. For someone who was insistent a personal story was non-representative, who was then confronted with multiple statistics across numerous diseases and hard data numbers, you sure are making a whole lot of personal claims with no evidence to back it.

Edit: it’s also worth noting that a doctor not diagnosing a patient with something doesn’t mean they’re prescribing something anyway. You’re mixing up an inability to diagnose with prescription medication use. Though doctors do and can prescribe medication when a diagnosis is not clear, it’s more likely a doctor won’t prescribe anything.


Poggse t1_j5utwd2 wrote

There isn't data tracking over prescribed and over diagnosed patients. Because that wouldn't indict doctors of crimes.

"100% of unreported crime goes unsolved"

See how easy it is to make stats fit a narrative?

Especially for something that cannot be quantified with numbers like pain sensitivity


Lyx4088 t1_j5uuh2v wrote

Wrong again. Yes there is.

Antibiotics are the biggest culprit of being prescribed when not warranted. That absolutely has issues, but the people pressuring their doctor for antibiotics are not the people who are going back time after time over years to a number of doctors trying to figure out what is going on with them. Those are not the people who are going undiagnosed with symptoms that can’t be currently (emphasis on currently) be explained by the doctor overseeing their care.


Poggse t1_j5uv4qw wrote

Ok now do the opioid epidemic.

Or maybe medicinal Marijuana before it was made recreationally legal.


Lyx4088 t1_j5uzvae wrote

What do those have to do with anything? A patient coming to a doctor looking for answers to what they’re struggling with does not mean they’re faking. The opioid epidemic was caused by doctors and pharmaceutical companies underplaying the addiction risks for far too long. That has nothing to do with patients who can’t get diagnosed. Pain is a common symptom of many diseases, but having pain doesn’t mean drug seeking. And if you’d bother to read anything (because clearly you’re not) you’d see that doctors are not prescribing pain medications when not warranted based on the presenting complaint to a huge extent, and that is even more true in todays world where they’re even going after pharmacies for not controlling opioid medications better and verifying abuse. Trying to discuss opioids in this context isn’t even the same thing.

And medical marijuana? What does that have to do with anything. You seem to be making an assumption that the people who are going undiagnosed are walking away with either an opioid prescription or using medical marijuana with zero data to support it. Stop distracting from the fact that you are absolutely wrong in your baseless assumption people who are undiagnosed after visiting a primary doctor are faking.


Poggse t1_j5v07p1 wrote

Opioid and Marijuana prescriptions shown that the system us abused and gamed by patients. If patients can lie to get drugs, why wouldn't they lie to get fussed over and get personal attention that they're starved for? Have you met old people?


Lyx4088 t1_j5v0kmh wrote

That has nothing to do with people not being diagnosed by a primary doctor. Seriously. Do some reading on what is actually going on and how deficient medicine truly is rather than making asinine assumptions and equating correlation with causation and direct effect. You’re also misrepresenting the opioid epidemic as a patient problem which is absolutely not the case.


Lyx4088 t1_j5tcovx wrote

Seriously? Have you even bothered to look at the research? The clear answer is no because if you had you’d know my experiences and the experiences of people I know are fairly typical. If you still want to double down, feel free to check out my links below that reference studies on various diseases and how long it takes to get diagnosed. You’ll see what I described in my “non-representative” personal experiences is in fact very typical and representative of getting diagnosed with a chronic illness.


Poggse t1_j5ukwpy wrote

So what's the data and research on fakers and overly dramatic attention seekers?


tyedyezzz t1_j5sa4z3 wrote

There is a lot more to figure out. It's a shame that people in pain are dismissed like this. Causes them unnecessary extra pain.


Poggse t1_j5snrh7 wrote

Idk what to tell you man. Try working customer service


tyedyezzz t1_j5sytac wrote

I think we could be nice to people working in customer service and not dismiss people who say they're in pain at the same time.


Poggse t1_j5syy6g wrote

I'm saying if you worked customer service, you'd realize how much people complain about the smallest, most trivial aspects of life.


tyedyezzz t1_j5sz3z6 wrote

I would imagine you also have times when you're the customer and the person you have to deal with in customer service is too dismissive, or where through no fault of the person in customer service, their options to help the customer are too limited. You may feel that what you need help with is valid.


Poggse t1_j5szeme wrote

That doesn't mean you have to whine and throw a pity party. That's what we're talking about. Over reactions to mild inconveniences.


tyedyezzz t1_j5szlmw wrote

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how upsetting it can be when someone thinks you're not in pain and you are.


Poggse t1_j5szr1k wrote

Ok but that's clearly not what I was initially referring to


tyedyezzz t1_j5szw5f wrote

You said that a lot of people whine and are hypochondriacs. I made a comment about how important it is not to dismiss people and label them whiners and hypochondriacs.


Poggse t1_j5t05qx wrote

For every person with real pain, there are multiple dramatic actors


tyedyezzz t1_j5t0bnr wrote

Even if that was true, clearly those people need a different kind of help. And if you are a medical professional, I think it's a shame if you assume most people are faking because you've encountered someone 'faking'. So much is incredibly hard to diagnose.

It's what stops a lot of people from going to the doctor in the first place.


Poggse t1_j5t0na1 wrote

What they need is to grow up. They are attention seekers. It's obnoxious, tedious and woefully transparent.


tyedyezzz t1_j5t0s2n wrote

But there are so many stories of people who medical professionals couldn't find anything wrong with for a long time and it took a lot of willpower and mental toughness for the people to keep pursuing a diagnosis, and some eventually get a diagnosis. So it isn't woefully transparent.


Poggse t1_j5t0yhq wrote

It is when it is, which is more often than not.


tyedyezzz t1_j5t15k6 wrote

Here's hoping you never have any number of aches and pains that all kinds of people have with no explanation. Because if the person you reach out to is like you, there's no end to your suffering in sight. In fact, they're going to really emotionally drain you too.


Poggse t1_j5ujyzr wrote

Literally everyone has aches and pains. You don't realize that because you can't empathize with others.

"Mine are the worst tho!!!! Waaaa"

That's exactly what I'm referring to


tyedyezzz t1_j5uqnx8 wrote

Often aches and pains do seem worse than others' but there isn't a diagnosis for it.


Poggse t1_j5urnkq wrote

It's called being a pussy. We all hurt everyday. Welcome to life.


tyedyezzz t1_j5us1bx wrote

Some of us hurt more than others.


Poggse t1_j5usbar wrote

Which is why fakers are such an issue. If you know the lime to wait at a clinic is going to be hours just because a bunch of whiny narcissists are clogging up the clinic, you don't bother going. Same with hospitals.


tyedyezzz t1_j5usklx wrote

Or if you have a legitimate pain and are constantly dismissed and have no option than to keep pressing the issue because you're in unbearable pain, then it's a great shame all your time is wasted having to convince people to believe you.


Poggse t1_j5ustzr wrote

Less than 1% of patients are determined to be fakers, so your argument doesn't hold up against stats.


tyedyezzz t1_j5ut64a wrote

"For every person with real pain, there are multiple dramatic actors."

You said that in this thread.


Poggse t1_j5utdcg wrote

Yeah, doctors over prescribe and over diagnose because they are paid to do that by big pharma. What's your point


tyedyezzz t1_j5utm3s wrote

You're arguing with 'stats' but now you're saying don't pay attention to 'stats'.


Poggse t1_j5uu4vk wrote

Stats are made by companies with agendas. Stats are advertising. They aren't representative of reality.


tyedyezzz t1_j5uua5i wrote

"Less than 1% of patients are determined to be fakers, so your argument doesn't hold up against stats."

Why is this important to you then?


Poggse t1_j5uuvor wrote

Because a doctor is always going to diagnose and prescribe. That's how they make money.

So if they determine someone is a faker, it must be an extremely egregious and obvious example that warrants no diagnosis or prescription.

But of course, it's very easy to say the magic words to get the doctor to open up their prescription pad.

It's like you have no idea that there's an opioid epidemic.

Or how medical Marijuana laws worked before recreational weed was available.

People are constantly gaming the system. If you are too naive to accept that, then I have a bridge to sell you.


tyedyezzz t1_j5uwhxj wrote

If you look at the OP, it says that 1/4 people who visit a GP have physical conditions that cannot be explained. Whether you agree with the stats or not, I'm not sure. But that's the post we've met under.


Poggse t1_j5ux06g wrote

That won't stop a doctor from giving them drugs or fussing over them, which is what fakers ultimately want.


tyedyezzz t1_j5ux82d wrote

"Because a doctor is always going to diagnose and prescribe. That's how they make money."

So I think we can remove 'diagnose' from this.


Poggse t1_j5uxbyg wrote



tyedyezzz t1_j5uxgi2 wrote

Because if a condition can't be explained, it can't be diagnosed, to my understanding.


Poggse t1_j5uxkly wrote

They'll just diagnose whatever makes money and/or gets the patient to fuck off.


tyedyezzz t1_j5uxx9b wrote

But the OP says 1/4 people who visit a GP have medical conditions that can't be explained. So if you accept that, that's not quite what's happening.


Poggse t1_j5uy9pb wrote

Just because it can't be explained doesn't mean they won't get drugs.

And if they're not after drugs, they're likely just starved for attention. Nothing makes them feel more important than a sympathetic doctor asking them about their life like they matter.


tyedyezzz t1_j5uyg9l wrote

I think they do matter.

And getting drugs isn't a diagnosis.


Poggse t1_j5uynyz wrote

I didn't say it was.

They only matter to the doctors in terms of dollars, not in terms of people.


JustAPoorPerson t1_j5shie3 wrote

Ah yes 25% of those visiting the doctor must be hypercondriacs


Poggse t1_j5so15u wrote

I mean, have you met people? They are perpetual victims. They love one upping, especially with respect to suffering.


Meeple_person t1_j5ssf0l wrote

It could have a lot to do with health anxiety. People have a lot of access to information, stories, news reports etc etc than they ever used to. Those receiving this saturation of information can start to convince themselves that they have whatever it is they've read. Becomes a self fulfilling condition where they feel ill even though they aren't and it becomes impossible to tell because logic has long departed the scene.


happygiraffe404 t1_j5svoio wrote

Every couple of years, previously unknown conditions are newly identified, understood, and treated. If everyone was like you, medicine would never advance. People who have sezuires would all be locked in asylums or sent for exorcisms.


Poggse t1_j5sxp2d wrote

Because that's what i was referring to /s