Submitted by ChadExtra t3_10iuu73 in todayilearned
Controversial opinion. Both parties were right for different reasons.
One of those situations where you are in trouble either way
We actually have a term that was coined for this exact dilemma, Lifeboat Ethics.
Very fascinating thank you
[removed]
Easiest decision ever really
Only people's lives on the line, no biggie, why sweat it? /s
I don't think it's necessarily the case that the people in the boats would have been overloaded. A boat could move in close and get some people who could swim to them and move away. Other boats could do the same.
Probably within about a few minutes, most of the people wouldn't be able to move and at no time, could swim faster than the boats could be paddled. So really it was a matter of dragging half-aware people into a boat and throwing a blanket on them.
The upper class was a bit too risk averse and didn't feel an obligation to help is how I see it.
There was pretty much no visibility though, I wouldn't have been confident making that call
Yea that’s one of the many terrifying things about that event, once the lights went out those people were in absolute pitch black..
Anyone with half a brain on those boats should be able to tell that freezing water makes people slow. No one is swarming a boat in the cold salt water.
All the people down voting me are fine with letting people drown.
Of course people are swarming boats, it's a very real danger
You've got about 5-10 minutes max in the north Atlantic until you're too numb to move.
Source: This is where I grew up and we were told this constantly by rescue workers coming to our schools and making announcements on the evening news etc...
There wasn't going to be any swarming going on.
You grew up in the north Atlantic ocean? Are you a mermaid?
Merman Dad! Mer-Man.
[deleted]
The ocean is warmer on their side in the UK/Ireland so id imagine these people in the moment would not be thinking the water was too cold to get swamped, especially not after the adrenalin and shock they would be experiencing. Most people do not come from places like us where the ocean can literally be below freezing during winter.
Have you ever been in cold water before? I mean freezing water. Have you been in it in 1912 clothes? If your boat was right there at the beginning, maybe yeah. This guy wanted to turn his boat around and go back. That's plenty of time for people to get into the later stages of hypothermia. And while yes hypothermia was not as well understood back then (unfortunately thanks to Nazis, it is now)people still knew cold=bad.
>Have you ever been in cold water before?
I have, yes.
>I mean freezing water.
Yes. In glacial flows on the coast of Greenland and Svalbard. Full immersion, multiple times.
>Have you been in it in 1912 clothes?
Fuck. No. I only had my underwear on. Guess that rules me out from commenting further on the physiological impacts of prolonged submersion in arctic water.
Dammit.
Imagine the embarrassment if you did it in 1920‘s clothes and you prepared for the wrong discussion.
Full immersion. So how long? 5 minutes, 10 minutes. How bout 30 minutes? How about 4 hours? I bet you pretty fast, you start moving slow, your fingers stop responding. You grow confused and tired. All the time having to tread water.
I think you get the idea, but hey, go ahead and leave people to die.
Full immersion means head below the water, so no I wasn’t doing that for 30min or 4 hours. You keep the back of your neck, and more importantly the vagus nerve within it, out of the water as it can trigger a parasympathetic response in your heart causing an aneurysm.
I was mildly making fun of your statements, as while I have swum, waded and washed in Arctic glacial water it was pretty clear you haven’t and put a ridiculous demand of period specific clothing as a qualifier.
I have no opinion on how long a person can last in the open ocean before death, it’s not something I have any experience of. And, probably more importantly, neither do you.
So I guess my point is perhaps don’t confidently state you know about a subject that you don’t have any experience in? Leave a little room for discussion.
The current basic offshore training (BOSIET) for helicopter sea transfers says you can die in as little as two minutes in wet clothes in the North sea. You're taught to not even try to swim or Dave yourself as you lose heat faster, you have to curl up and hope you're able to be rescued in time.
We are talking about a specific hypothetical, and you want to open this hypothetical to any fucking goddamn time in the water. So yes if I was in the bahamas in the middle of summer and there were 100s of people in the water nearby I wouldn't immediately go in there with a boat. Key word being immediately.
If I was in a goddamn boat during the sinking of the Titanic and I could turn back and save people in the freezing fucking water, I would. It also sounds like you have had training in water, as well, I don't think anybody who was in the water had the fucking option of keeping their neck out of the water. I don't know what hypothetical situation of a boat full of trained water experts sinking in waist deep water equates to the sinking of the Titanic that your talking about. Sounds like people that don't need saving.
I can confidently state if you get shot in the head and the bullet goes through your brain, you will die. One can confidently state things if they understand the facts. I don't have to get shot in the head to know what happens if you do.
You’re very confident that you know better than someone who has direct experience of Arctic water immersion.
But you don’t have any experience or knowledge. Just opinion.
It’s not a specific hypothetical. The Titanic did sink. Pitman, and many others, gave first hand accounts of the situation.
And some lifeboats did return to pick up survivors. It’s one of the reasons Pitman deeply regretted not returning. The passengers that had life jackets, or floating debris, survived for quite a lot longer than your 5min timeline.
But you’re more fond of your opinions that any actual experiences.
WHAT FUCKING 5 MINUTES TIMELINE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! Im talking about being in a boat that left the area and then coming back THATS NOT 5 FUCKING MINUTES! These are untrained socialites in the goddamn 1920's
So you went in controlled conditions into some Arctic water, wow, so impressive. Still haven't given me an approximate number for how long. Have you ever had hypothermia? In the water? Then I'd take your first-hand account.
And you just fucking admitted it! It was possible for them to go back and pick people up, without being swarmed by near frozen passengers.
I really should stop responding, as you’re clearly angry I don’t agree you’re any sort of expert.
>WHAT FUCKING 5 MINUTES TIMELINE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!
The 5 min you keep stating repeatedly.
>These are untrained socialites in the goddamn 1920's
No, the 1st class passengers were prioritised to lifeboats. The 2nd and 3rd class passengers were left in the water.
And human physiology hasn’t changed over the past 100 years.
>So you went in controlled conditions into some Arctic water, wow, so impressive.
It wasn’t controlled conditions. And it’s not so much impressive as direct personal experience. In fact, glacial run off water is 2 degrees colder than the open Arctic Ocean.
The key takeaway is I have more experience than you. Yet you continue to argue you’re the expert.
>Still haven't given me an approximate number for how long.
Depends. Up to 15min, I suppose.
>Have you ever had hypothermia? In the water?
No, I am not a fool. I’m not giving myself hypothermia in water just to find out what it feels like to die.
>Then I'd take your first-hand account.
Stop gatekeeping. Stop acting like you’re the expert here. That’s all I’m saying.
>And you just fucking admitted it! It was possible for them to go back and pick people up, without being swarmed by near frozen passengers.
I specifically said I had no opinion. It’s you that’s claiming the expert knowledge.
Read the accounts of the sinking, if you read the descriptions from the lifeboats, if you had any knowledge or experience at all I wouldn’t be calling you out.
>I can confidently state if you get shot in the head and the bullet goes through your brain, you will die.
Looks like someone didn't see the JFK post from a couple of days ago.
'Gunshot wound to the head not a death sentence'
How confidently incorrect you are. Dunning-Kruger strikes again!
I specified through the brain for a reason. Though, yes, you can get pierced through parts of your brain and still survive. I had thought that I had dumbed down the statement enough. Unless it's a small calibre bullet entering through your eye or other hole around your brain, any bullet able to pierce your skull, and go through your brain, is going to leave an even bigger exit hole or is going to ricochet off the inside of your skull and continue to do damage. So yes, Dunning-Kruger strikes again!
If bullet go through brainy and make brainy mush and fail out of head, you go to sleep and never wake up.
I did not realise that 'dumbing a statement down' meant turning it from something that is factual and correct into something that is speculative and bullshit. Why would you say the wrong things, when the right ones were available? How does that help dumb people?
>If bullet go through brainy and make brainy mush and fail out of head, you go to sleep and never wake up.
That's it, now we're getting there. Good job!
Wtf are you even talking about, nothing I have said is speculative? My previous statement was of course meant as hyperbole, but was also phrased in a way to make it as accurate as possible. Instead you seem to be unable to realize that and are concentrating on unlikely edge cases. Not to mention TBI can literally change who you are.
If people are in freezing water for an extended period of time the start to go into hypothermia. Symptoms of hypothermia include:
Weak pulse
Clumsiness or lack of coordination
Drowsiness or very low energy
Confusion or memory loss
Loss of consciousness
Now does this sound like a state of being in which persons could climb the side of a boat en mass and cause it to tip? Adrenaline only lasts for so long.
At NO point did I ever say in 5 minutes any or all boats should have gone back. The ONLY 5 minutes I have referred to is your time in 'glacial water'. In controlled conditions, with no panic or fear. As well as being in good medical condition, no malnutrition and no history of nicotine use. I'm sure with a warm tent or whatever nearby.
But I'm do e arguing with some Jackass who dipped his toes in cold water and think he's an expert on cold water survival.
Yep, you sure are! I'm not that guy, I'm a completely different person! You absolute dipshit.
Sorry for not reading the username after responding to a single person for a long ass thread, you dipshit! It is totally obvious too when you're going back and forth responding on the website and an app, you fuckwit.
You sound like a condescending prick
Yeah. Probably.
However the other guy is arrogantly stating his opinion as fact.
I just didn’t recognise they had any subject matter expertise.
Anyone with half a brain should be able to tell that desperate people who are dying can do pretty incredible things to survive.
You're down voted to hell because you don't know what adrenaline can do apparently.
There is no amount of adrenaline in your body that can kepp you warm for 30 minutes in sub-zero water.
Dozens of people drowning in ice water prob aren't logically pursuaded not to board the boat
I think they wouldn’t even be able to swim to the boat. It’s either you rescue them, or they die within a couple of minutes.
Sir this boat has reached its capacity. Please continue freezing to death in the water at this time thank you
Thank you for your cooperation and hope you will choose Titanic in your afterlife
The swarming part is realistic though, and then they all die. Adrenaline was pumping, people would be shoving eachother out of the way in freezing waters to clamber onto the boat. Then things just escalate from there
That's like rule 1 of saving a drowning person. If they're panicking then there's a great chance there will now be 2 drowning people.
Problem with that is they were in freezing water. Hypothermia sets in quickly and kills quickly. You’re usually unable to move as effectively in a few minutes. Not enough strength to capsize the boat.
Take into consideration very panicked and traumatized individuals not thinking or behaving rationally. They could easily capsize a row boat in their panic state.
Almost like trying to save a panicked drowning person who almost drowns, and sometimes succeeds, the person trying to save them.
The main lifeboats on the Titanic were 30 feet long and had a capacity of 65 people each. That is far too big a boat for a single person to capsize. It would probably take at least a dozen people grabbing onto a single side to flip a boat like that. Many survivors reported that the screams of the people in the water only lasted a couple of minutes, and then there was silence as most were incapacitated by the freezing water.
I think that by the time the lifeboats rowed back to get survivors, most would either be dead or too weak to swamp the boat.
>I don't think it's necessarily the case
The question is whether you're willing to risk your life and all the others in the boat to find out.
Yes, this is the kind of situation where you only get one chance to find out, and if you screw it up, you're done for.
This is very easy to theorize about when you're not freezing and disoriented, sitting in a boat at night and in terror for your life.
Maybe they could move, maybe they couldn't - they wouldn't know that on the boat. If people were able to move and a boat came by, every person that could reach out, would try to - it's that or die. And there was a good chance the boat could capsize in the chaos.
Ignoring all of that in favor of creating a narrative that fits your worldview is neither fair nor reasonable.
It's just what I might think to do in that situation. I will leave panic to other people who might be experts in that.
If only you could have been there, rather than this jagoff Pitman, a mere officer on the ship who joined the Navy at 18, or the crew members on the boat. A pity!
Lighten up a little. And don't hate me just because I might be the solution to most problems.
None of them involving paperwork or using a map of course.
> The upper class was a bit too risk averse and didn't feel an obligation to help is how I see it.
change that 'was' to 'is'. Things haven't changed in 100 years.
Within a few minutes all the people in the water would be dead
Realistic response. Many of the lifeboats were only filled to half capacity and only 2 of the 18 lifeboats returned to rescue passengers in the water and I haven’t seen any report that either were swamped.
A googled figure puts the first class survival rate at 62%, the second class at 41% and third class at 25%. There is a obvious skew towards women and children however the survival rate of first class men is 2-3 times as high as second and third class men.
They weren’t going to risk their lives for poor people IMO.
It is worth mentioning that the highest mortality rate was for crewmembers. Only 24% of the crew survived.
I've often seen crew fatalities overlooked, apart from some particularly notable crewmembers. It's a shame, as if they don't count because they weren't passengers.
It's worth remembering most of the crew were hotel staff. It just so happened the hotel they worked at was on a ship.
If it was anything like the movie, when the lifeboats returned, almost everyone were dead and frozen.
if they went back 15 minutes earlier they would have been swamped by panicking people.
I’d caution you against taking anything from that movie as factual.
In this case it was pretty close, though. Harold Lowe, the only officer who went back for people, redistributed the already-rescued people into several boats and waited for the shouting to die down before he went back, be cause he was afraid of the boat being swamped. Later he said he realized he had waited too long, that the water was too cold for people to survive in it for more than a short while. I think about four people got pulled out of the water total.
Cameron wanted it to be as much 100% factual based on what they knew from the survivors stories, boat's layout and how it was found. The only thing fabricated was the story between Jack and Rose (and some other story beats)....but as far as the ship and the disaster....I'm pretty sure was spot on.
A filmmaker’s version of “100% accurate” lasts precisely as long as it takes them to run into an aesthetic, dramatic, or practical limitation. For instance, they sought to “exactly recreate” the interiors of the boat. But then Cameron decided the main staircase wasn’t big enough to fit his vision, so they enlarged it. It’s a minor thing, inconsequential on its own, but it’s not historically accurate. There’s also the case of the crewman who shoots people for trying to board the lifeboats, and then shoots himself. There are reports from survivors of shots being fired, but iirc, no one actually saw him execute anyone. They used the real person’s real name and portrayed him as a callous killer, based on speculation. Even Cameron has admitted he regrets that.
The fact is, Cameron’s film is based as much on A Night to Remember as it is on historical record.
Either way, he would have regretted his decision for the rest of his life
I think he regretted being able to try and not trying.
I think the joke is that, if he had rowed over to a large number of drowning people, they all would have died. At which point he'd be regretting rowing over there for the rest of his (short) life.
Unless he pushed Rose off that door. Could have been rich and alive.
I think you mean pulled, dead people can't sign checks lol.
People who wouldn’t try and save others aren't worth saving. I’d throw over any objectors to make room for survivors,
Sounds like you're asking to be thrown over yourself.
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments