We Need to Do Something About STRs

Submitted by Commercial_Case_7475 t3_10w7t26 in vermont

So today I received a letter disclosing the wastewater system expansion and development of the property directly adjacent to me to include a tiny house, supposedly to be used as an Airbnb, less than 100' from my front door (we each have 10 ac lots). The owner lives in Connecticut, and already owns a vacation home on said property, which he does not rent out, but allows co-workers and friends to stay in.

The problem I have with this is that these people contribute absolutely nothing to the community, and do not even communicate with the people who actually live here. They basically come here treating our town like it's Las Vegas, ignoring the impact on neighbors daily lives, all while swallowing up money in the form of STRs and funneling back out of our state. He has informed me that he intends to make his property into a kind of "campground", possibly even host concerts in his field. He already has large parties in the summertime where people come and camp out. This is right in the middle of the quietest back road, where half a dozen of us live unassuming lives and don't bother each other.

I know that Vermont has benefited from tourism, but when it begins to degrade the locals quality of life, and when it harms us more than helps us, that's when we need to do something about it, and draw the line. Sorry for venting, it's just a really annoying problem that's slowly getting worse.

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WhiskyIsMyYoga t1_j7lhmac wrote

The molecular biologist in me was briefly confused as to why someone was so worked up about short tandem repeats.

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Sdwingnut t1_j7lmb4l wrote

The OP is trying to get away with murder? /s

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r20 t1_j7lii1c wrote

Took me a bit to figure out, but for anyone else...STR = short term rentals.

I totally sympathize and am at a loss about what can (realistically) be done. Of course we all know common sense solutions but fighting the rich and corporations like airbnb is a losing battle since they make the rules.

Out for a walk last night, there was an entire block of beautiful, expensive homes sitting there empty. All the while, people can't find a place to live.

How much longer?

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Twombls t1_j7mavi2 wrote

Burlington banned them effectively.

Just prohibit a non homestead from being a rental unless you have a hotel license in commercially zoned property. If you have an accessory building or at least two low income units within a building you can apply to have one unit get a b&b license

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thisoneisnotasbad t1_j7mieh5 wrote

How many long term rentals did that net Burlington? I saw that law and thought it was a bad idea so I already have an opinion but do you know if there is data out there on its impact? I always prefer data over anecdote or opinion.

I’m trying to find data but can’t. I did find this though.

> He commented on the statistic given to council by city data that short-term rentals made up 1% of rentals in Burlington.

https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2022/07/01/burlington-airbnbs-new-short-term-rental-regulations-are-here-to-stay/65364328007/

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Twombls t1_j7mm5vy wrote

When housing availability is .06% 1% is a lot

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thisoneisnotasbad t1_j7mziw5 wrote

That is assuming they were all converted to Long term rentals which is why I asked if there was any actual data that was not conjecture. Sounds like a no.

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d-cent t1_j7pln0f wrote

I mean, it's been less than a year. There won't be any data yet. We just have subjective analysis for now. It certainly seems like there is more supply right now. It's still expensive but you don't have to spend a year just to get an expensive unit. It's going in the right direction. It's still too early to tell

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Loudergood t1_j7rlz11 wrote

What else are they going to do? Sell.

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thisoneisnotasbad t1_j7rn4wm wrote

Not rent. Let it sit vacant. Ignore the law and see if BTV has an teeth. Lots of other options.

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Curious_Leader_2093 t1_j7lspff wrote

We need to demand a higher tax rate for properties used this way.

Taxing the crap out of STR's needs to become the cultural expectation.

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_j7m6v6f wrote

Problem is the people who make the tax are said people or affiliated.

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Curious_Leader_2093 t1_j7m98yb wrote

100%. Which is why the populace needs to be united and see this as an expectation.

I'm from a place that's ahead of VT in this way. Rich people moving in seems like a good thing at first, until local's can't afford to live or shop there. I don't want to see that happen to VT.

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_j7mo6n4 wrote

We used to be united. Now everyones gone so far left or right they'll never agree upon anything again. Vermont is ripe for the picking and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it.

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you_give_me_coupon t1_j7mxcwa wrote

This is why the message that uniting based on class is racist is pushed so hard. (And identity politics generally.) The wealthy people running the country and the state really, really, don't want regular working people of all stripes uniting to advance their common economic interests.

If there is ever a credible threat to AirBNBs in this state, expect countless articles and VPR "explainers" about how wanting affordable housing for regular people is actually racist. It's happened so many times before, like when Coca Cola paid the NAACP to say taxes on sugary drinks were racist.

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Commercial_Case_7475 OP t1_j7myz4w wrote

I agree 100%. It makes no damn sense to let non-residents squeeze lower working class people out of property ownership or being able to afford to live in their home town. Rich folks moving in used to be good, when there were just several summer homes, and they behaved like they were guests, not like they owned the whole place. If they don't contribute to the local economy like a real neighbor, they ought to, at the very least, pay more taxes to the town. At least we could afford more sand for our road maintenance budget, or even another dump truck.

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Curious_Leader_2093 t1_j7n3nif wrote

Our government literally gives us the power to do this, but we act like we're helpless.

This should be a simple thing for VT'ers to align with.

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huskers2468 t1_j7mfgja wrote

Is the populace united? Reddit might have a strong voice on it, but I'm not sure everyone does.

I think the best route would be to have it regionally voted on, and not state wide.

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JaimeGordonLannister t1_j7q7ejf wrote

Tax the crap out of them, for sure.

But given how much of a housing crisis exists right now, I wonder if it makes sense to enact a 1-2 year ban on AirBnB rentals in the state as a temporary emergency measure, then figure out a taxation scheme as a long-term disincentive. Folks who want to buy starter homes or rent in the state need relief now, and unfortunately the STR slumlords causing this problem already benefit from a number of tax loopholes, so I'm not fully confident it will fix the crisis. Surely not until next tax season, when the tax bill comes due.

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Nauticalknots t1_j7m2qxe wrote

Sounds like they are doing what they want with their property. Vermont’s not its own country. The real STR issue is with investors/corps buying up 20 homes or whatever just to pad their accounts.

They are having their friends come up and camp? What happened to live and let live? And ffs they got a wastewater permit the right way and probably paid 40k for a mound so their little tiny house and family camp outs won’t pollute your neighborhood’s wells.

Way more “natives” than you would ever like to admit have an ADU that they air bnb, that they could rent to a local long term if they wanted to...

Hate the big greedy corporation. But lay off the guy who has his friends and co workers up for camp outs. That’s just whining.

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_j7mgis6 wrote

To be fair, having the yard next door turn into a concert venue would be horrible

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LarvalCraze t1_j7miwmz wrote

Or amazing

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_j7mvio1 wrote

If you both share the same music tastes. Living next door to a place with hick-hop concerts every weekend is actually a ring of hell.

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Commercial_Case_7475 OP t1_j7n1ozv wrote

I can understand how it may sound in my post, but this situation is definitely not as benign as your comment would portray. Yes, the get togethers with ATVs blaring sirens and music till midnight do get annoying when you have kids and animals that need a decent rest, but it's the further development of the property directly adjacent to me that has me concerned. If it were not for the allure of non-residents to "cash in" on their slice of Vermont with Airbnb's, no way he'd be putting up an ADU right next to where my kids play outside.

Besides, this is more of an issue of people importing their attitude toward neighbors from shitty places where people just step all over each other to get their cake. I also have a spot that I could eventually develop into an Airbnb, but I have ruled this out already because it's right next to my neighbors house, and I actually have respect for their space and privacy. That's the thing about Vermont, we function without as much regulation as other states because we respect each others right to live undisturbed and in our own space, and are content to live off our land.

Reminds me of an Ethan Allen quote "The gods of the hills are not the gods of the valley".

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hudsoncider t1_j7n3a9v wrote

You have 10 acres and there isn’t another place on your land that wouldn’t be right up next to your neighbors that you could place an ADU?

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Commercial_Case_7475 OP t1_j7n5eqj wrote

Not that would be easy to run utilities or construct a driveway

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hudsoncider t1_j7ozm21 wrote

So then doesn’t the same principle apply to the neighbor building an ADU near your property? I’m not saying I don’t feel for you but that may be the reason for their chosen location too.

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random_vermonter t1_j7msk16 wrote

Do you happen to be on a selectboard and own a STR(s)?

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Nauticalknots t1_j7owat2 wrote

Nope, I work in the trades with a good look at who and how people are building ADUs... and it’s made me realize these last couple years, there’s no certain group building them. In fact I see regular Vermonters building them for air bnb more than any other outside group.

And no. I don’t own a str. Or a even a house. I rent an ADU from a wealthy second homeowner though. He’s a really good guy, too. I judge him based on who he is as a person, not on his nice car with a yellow license plate or the fact he owns a vacation home that he only spends 5 or 6 months at. And if he told me next year he wants to make my place an Airbnb because it’s a better investment for him, then I wouldn’t think he’s less of a good person, because that’s not what makes a person decent or not, or good for the world.. I don’t need a handout or for someone to compromise their own opportunities...for me? I can put one foot in front of the other and work through my own challenges in life. I lost my last rental to becoming an Airbnb, and that was a multigenerational Vermonter whose dad built the house who sent me packing. He was a good guy too. No judgement, we all do what we need to do.

I’ll say it again. Hate the investment company that bought five handfuls of houses during the rush. Not the guy building a tiny house that will be occupied by some str / his kids and their friends... Not my landlord who buys a million dollar piece of land and builds a second home. No Vermonter who can’t find housing right now was gonna drop the 2.5 mil to develop that kind of acreage. The driveway and utilities cost more than most of us could ever afford for a house.. He didn’t take a slice of Vermont from someone staffing a restaurant who can’t find a house to buy. Really, he just put a nice fat paycheck in a bunch of local tradespeoples pockets, and then gave two of them a place to rent.

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huskers2468 t1_j7magdf wrote

Really blurring the lines between actual STR concerns and property/neighbor disputes.

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No-Ganache7168 t1_j7mxwh4 wrote

In order to have concerts he probably needs a permit. You could go to your zoning officer to see if this would even be allowed. You could also look into your town noise ordinance and complain if he violates it.

It really sucks that he has 10 acres and is putting the house practically in your front yard. I'm sure it's as far from his home as possible. Does our town have a setback ordinance that could protect you?

If he lists it on Airbnb he won't be allowed to have the tiny house guests throw parties. My friend lives across the road from an Airbnb and when the owners allowed guests to throw a huge pre-wedding party she complained by calling a hotline and the listing was temporarily removed.

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hotpieismyking t1_j7p5vrd wrote

Most of Vermont is zoned rural residential... especially 10 acre lots... Which typically means you can do basically anything you want, including host private concerts.

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No-Ganache7168 t1_j7rfs8d wrote

In our town you would still need an event permit (I think it’s required for events over 100 people). My neighbor had to pay for one when she had a wedding reception on her property even though the other neighbors didn’t care.

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GraniteGeekNH t1_j7m7ss1 wrote

Talk to your select board and your state representative - they're the ones who can change regulations. Dealing with local goernment and bureaucrats and regulations is a pain in the butt but that's the way to change things.

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Twombls t1_j7ma8ge wrote

They also unfortunately tend to be the ones that own airbnbs

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GraniteGeekNH t1_j7md0jz wrote

Ouch.

Ask around anyway - it's your only real option for changing things. You can always go to the state senator's office, too.

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Effinehright t1_j7m472y wrote

It's wild that as stringent as zoning in towns are for building new apartments and or hotels are that they seem to have no rules on a house being used as a hotel room.

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Twombls t1_j7mblow wrote

If you look at who tends to be on the select boards and what they own the rules start making sense.

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1DollarOr1Million t1_j7m9cp1 wrote

As someone who’s generally pro-capitalism, I would be 100% ok with making STR’s in Vermont banned on a state level. Yes I’m talking outright banning AirBnB from the state. I don’t mind someone renting out a home for a reasonable amount, making a little profit, and providing a home to someone that doesn’t want to buy. Just don’t be a slumlord and don’t fuck over the states housing crisis by blocking out locals that need a home.

OP, if you can do something to gain traction in this direction, let me know and I will support in whatever way I can. Whether that’s voting a certain way, signing a petition, or whatever.

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Twombls t1_j7marao wrote

Dont even have to outright ban them. Look at what burlington did.

They allow airbnbs to exist as the app "advertises". You can rent a room out in your primary residence. You just can't rent out whole units.

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1DollarOr1Million t1_j7mrut3 wrote

That is better than nothing, but still, there are loophole ways of getting around that. Which is why I think we need to kill it at the source and just say fuck AirBnB and any other like competitors.

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you_give_me_coupon t1_j7mxscb wrote

The way to get there is to go for a total ban, or something even more extreme, and then "settle" for less.

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darcy1805 t1_j7lhyny wrote

Get in touch with u/bravestatevt

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cpujockey t1_j7lqkkf wrote

well hopefully they will see the issue for us natives as what it is and not just some ploy for white nationalism or whatever.

it's frustrating that the place I grew up, have generational roots / history is slowly trying to price me and my family out of. I get that a lot of folks think that vermont natives are all white dudes and far right or whatever, but we're mixed race, some of us liberal and some of us not liberal. We belong here just as much as any of these entitled "flat landers".

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Pristine_Tension8399 t1_j7w2d9k wrote

I here you. I got priced out of my hometown and wound up in Vermont due to the relatively low cost of real estate. Sucks everywhere.

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soggy_donut t1_j7otk72 wrote

This post is a literal “not in my back yard” lmao. It’s his own property. He wouldn’t be renting that to a local regardless. This isn’t taking it from the normal housing supply like what airbnbs normally do. Maybe this will help flood the Airbnb market

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twentiesforever t1_j7nromp wrote

This sound like a neighbor dispute. Concerts? Yea, thats not an airbnb thing. And a campground? Yea, he'd need a permit for that. Don't hate on some little guy supporting his family renting their ADU because this aint that.

And if I'm reading this right, nothing has actually happened yet. He's paying for a mound system, you were notified per the permit regulations and you start freaking out online. If he has parties, join him in celebrating or grow up.

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contrary-contrarian t1_j7m3lyh wrote

We should more strictly regulate short term rentals, but not to forward any NIMBY agenda... but instead to open them up for long term rental.

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zombienutz1 t1_j7mdfjg wrote

Run for your selectboard, city council, DRB, planning commission, etc. Change won't come from the state (not quickly anyway) so it has to be done at the municipal level.

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Anxious-Captain737 t1_j7n0s66 wrote

for some reason we cater to this crap now you try and put a camper for your adult child to stay a spell using the shower and toilet in my house and the goverment has a fit. Never mind the same child live in my house 20 plus years this state sucks

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f_thot_bitchgerald t1_j7ne8w9 wrote

Just saying, if it truly is an ADU (and not eventually a proposal for multiple units on the same lot - depends on what the zoning district will allow and most people get the WW permits first before dealing with zoning) then one of the two, either the ADU or the main house, need to be owner occupied per state law. Worth looking into.

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Christopher_LX t1_j7njan7 wrote

Time to put in that manure pit you've been thinking about.

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Twombls t1_j7magdp wrote

The state should look at burlingtons model as an example.

Renting out a room within a house is fine as long as its a primary residence.

Renting out a non homestead is illegal

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Dangerous_Mention_15 t1_j7sbo4u wrote

The murder per capita >2x national average is the really the selling point for me with Burlington!

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KITTYONFYRE t1_j7lo8qd wrote

the issue is housing in general. this isn't unique to vermont.

how many AirBNBs laid simply dormant for 6 months of the year before, but are now rented out just in the winter when the boomer owners go down to florida to stay warm? vs how many are actually bought just for short term rental? I'm sure I'll get a ton of anecdotal replies to this comment and no actual statistics. I don't know if these statistics actually even exist or not to be fair though.

i'm not a property owner btw

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trueg50 t1_j7p1gye wrote

Somehow airbnb is a magic scapegoat for all property and housing issues. People don't realize how many regular people use the system renting out their own property, or how much the hotels would love to squash the competition they have to deal with. It's easier to blame one company than to face the fact that Vermont will always have housing shortages due to its very conservative nature. Until towns allow actual dense housing or many environmental regulations magically "go away" nothing will change.

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bobsizzle t1_j7ojv0g wrote

I plan on doing this. The problem isn't individuals, it's corporations buying up several homes, condos, etc or people buying property just for the income. I plan on traveling a lot and instead of my home sitting empty weeks at a time, I'll be using air BNB.

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random_vermonter t1_j7mszrb wrote

Who cares if something is or isn't unique to Vermont? Unless you've been living under a rock (which I highly suspect), Vermont has a housing crisis that's compounded by a lack of rentable units AND people/corps buying up houses to rent on AirBnB. This is a problem that has to be solved.

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KITTYONFYRE t1_j7na69b wrote

is it actually compounded? by how much? you’re not presenting statistics of how many homes which would have otherwise been on the market for long term rental have instead moved to short term. i hear a lot of anecdotal reports and whining but no actual evidence of the problem’s size

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21stCenturyJanes t1_j7mgfvh wrote

Don't vent to Reddit, talk to your town hall/town manager/select board. He'll need to meet zoning requirements and get permits, etc, this is not a done deal.

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g33kfish t1_j7nuq05 wrote

Definitely look into your towns bi-laws around development. I’m on my towns planning commission and here it would definitely be a violation to suddenly turn your property into a concert venu without permits and that review process is open to comments and concerns from neighbors. There are probably more tools at your disposal than you realize.

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vtbrewer86 t1_j7ohj1n wrote

Just talk with the owner and say that’s really close to your gun range and the guest might not like the constant shooting.

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Dangerous_Mention_15 t1_j7sbcjw wrote

"The problem I have with this is that these people contribute absolutely nothing to the community"

They pay taxes and consume very few resources. Their property taxes help fund all the municipal services while not using the schools, placing little wear on the roads, and most likely not being a social burden requiring EMS and law enforcement involvement.

"and do not even communicate with the people who actually live here."

Why do they need to communicate with you? Given your attitude towards them, perhaps they communicate with others...

The horror, someone who owns 10 acres wants to put up a tiny house and rent it out to people who will come to the community and spend money locally, the nerve people have hoping to use things they own to better themselves!

Humph, I'd move to Canada!

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Odd-Philosopher5926 t1_j7uem6v wrote

10 acres is enough to start that pig farm you’ve always wanted. Pigs shit 10X as much as humans do and if you raise them organically you could actually make money

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Greatknight99 t1_j7nqa6a wrote

The solution is simple:

  1. Check to see if this guy has cameras and keep track of how often he visits.
  2. Go to Goodwill in Williston and buy a ski mask, they're like $5.
  3. Start shitting on his lawn and front stoop/stoop of this new airbnb at night. Try to leave your house, drive your car or bike down the road before doing this. Ditch the car and walk either down the road or through the woods so you can say you were gone when it happened.
  4. If step 3 doesn't ward off the downstaters, buy a gorilla suit and run through the woods at night, throwing shit like big rocks at their place. When interacting with them during the day, actively gaslight the neighbor into believing Bigfoot is real. Do this slowly over time, adding it more and more into conversation. Make sure to shit on your own lawn and break your own windows to make it look real. You could also post the location on Bigfoot research forums online and see if paranormal researchers flood the place and scare off airbnb people.
  5. Step 4 could take a while, so if you're impatient, make friends with the host on social media. Constantly tag them in politically and morally terrible takes as though they agree with you. Block or remove any comments they make disagreeing with it. Meanwhile, buy flags of totalitarian countries/ political parties that are controversial and raise them so airbnb people can see them.
  6. When all else has failed, just start shitting on the lawn during the day where renters can see you. Pay a local actor to pretend to be your concerned sibling who is looking after you. Have the actor apologize to the people after you crap on their lawn/stoop on your behalf. Bonus points if you let them come up with unique excuses as to why you're doing this.

I love my state, but this would be considerably faster and cheaper than waiting for state government to create legislation that fixes this deeply rooted problem. Also, this guy is from Connecticut, these actions would probably be an improvement on his quality of life.

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seekingadvice37 t1_j7oauea wrote

In general, I've seen some people in these AirBnB discussions saying that they're "natives" to the land. Historically, the land in Vermont belonged to the Abénaki and Mahican Native Americans, who were mostly wiped out by white people taking their land. You can only be native to the land if you were historically and culturally there before anyone else.

To OP, all the stuff he's doing definitely doesn't sound legal and you'll probably want to contact the proper authorities/legislature. If he's planning to create lots of noise that disturbs the peace in a quiet neighborhood that's one cause for issue, and the average person can't just go out and make campgrounds and concerts because they technically own a property. If he tries to do stuff like that without a permit he will undoubtedly be getting in trouble.

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[deleted] t1_j7nyw63 wrote

[deleted]

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redfreedomusofa t1_j7lzskm wrote

Do something about people's private property? No thanks. It's their property they don't need someone else telling them what they can do with it.

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Curious_Leader_2093 t1_j7m14od wrote

Sounds like they are impacting the use of OP's FULLY OCCUPIED residential property.

People visiting a few times a year do not make a town, the locals do. If it were not for the locals, there would be no town, no amenities, no reason or way for people to own vacation homes.

Locals make an area the way it is. Wealthy folks from outside want to buy a piece of it. They tend to bring the shitty culture they were trying to get away from. If they buy too much, they displace the locals, changing the area and disintegrating what made it charming in the first place.

I'm sorry but I do not see 2nd home owners as having equal rights to people to live in an area full time.

edit: I had more to say...

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Commercial_Case_7475 OP t1_j7m4ogt wrote

Lol you just described zoning my guy

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redfreedomusofa t1_j7mvskp wrote

STR is not a zoning issue. I am actively looking for an STR on either Stowe or Woodstock. God bless America.

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Commercial_Case_7475 OP t1_j7n28gm wrote

I hope you enjoy that check at the expense of yet another homeless family in Vermont. Your greed is not welcome here

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redfreedomusofa t1_j7n2ma0 wrote

They can move to another property. It's not that hard. People can own as much property as they want. This is America. Not China.

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Amyarchy t1_j7p73od wrote

You wouldn't like it here. Try Texas.

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hideous-boy t1_j7m2sej wrote

why are you bouncing around to subreddits around the country shilling for AirBnB and Blackrock? Touch some fucking grass

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ARaoulVermonter t1_j7m2q7d wrote

Where do you live? You post in so many local subreddits it's hard to tell

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_j7m744z wrote

Wouldn't you only know that if you were in the same assortment of subreddits?

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ARaoulVermonter t1_j7mdtv9 wrote

I'm not, though. I only know it because I looked at their user history.

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bobsizzle t1_j7ojy81 wrote

If they are creating a nuisance, no. Loud concerts might be a nuisance.

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