I’m not sure about the YouTube channel you’re referring to but I certainly wouldn’t let dogs roam free like that. In the town I grew up in we had a few neighbors who wouldn’t hesitate to shoot strays if they were on their property.

I see a canine running loose on my property it is a target!

I guarantee you have exactly this in Maine. Aroostook county is more rural than almost all of Vermont and honors their hunting traditions more than vermont does.

Actually last I checked Maine allowed bear trapping whereas Vermont does not.

This is not a Vermont specific thing.

Strays or the neighbors dog who happened to get out? There’s a difference

Yeah ones just psychos pleasure killing.

Unfortunately it didn’t make a difference to them. We always kept our dog on a tie out.

It’s more common if you live near wooded areas. For some reason it’s legal to tree bears with dogs even out of hunting season. So people do it for…fun? People have gps collars on their dogs and just let them run. If the dogs are chasing livestock or deer I think it’s legal to shoot them. Really weird and dumb part of our hunting culture.

I’ve come across bear hunting dogs with radio collars before. One of them wanted nothing to do with me, but the other was friendly and followed me down the road. Eventually a very grumpy dude with a pickup came by and had the dogs jump into the crates in the back of the truck. I was concerned because I ran into these dogs on a road where cars were going 40+ mph.

Basically the dogs will chase an animal down until it’s exhausted and cornered, and the hunter will eventually show up and shoot the bear or raccoon or whatever. The hunter can be miles away in a truck just following from a safe distance. Well trained or no, there is no way these dogs are under control. They pass into posted land if that’s where their target runs, and then the hunters have to ask permission to retrieve their dogs.

There was an incident a few years ago where a few hikers and their puppy were attacked. https://www.vermontpublic.org/vpr-news/2019-11-26/hikers-attacked-by-bear-hunting-dogs-legislators-consider-changing-regulations?_amp=true

Nothing much dog, what’s up with you?

Probably. Like I said as far as I know.

Yes

There’s a sense of entitlement with some of these hunters who don’t control their dogs. Land that has changed hands don’t want dogs running loose on it. The hunters don’t care or want to be told they can’t so it’s caused issues. It’s lead to calls to end the practice and of course this becomes a fight between tradition and newcomers.

I’m a hunter and born/raised in Vermont and the ones that let the dogs roam free to hunt are assholes. They misinterpret the law about retrieving game on property to justify following the dogs.
They want to be allowed to trespass

I bet many of those Hunters don't allow others on their property

I mean... I've threatened to shoot my neighbors dog before. But his dogs are aggressive gaurd dogs and he let's them run free on my property.

I don't know I don't smell anything

https://youtube.com/watch?v=AkEEM-Pw6Tk&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE

Well that's one thing for sure, can't really have aggressive dogs running around endangering people . However it does seem some itch fot the chance.

Yea, im I gun owner and target shoot but fuck I hate that "I want an excuse to shoot something" attitude. I'd really rather not have to hike my property with a gun. It's not comfortable.

A dog off a leash!?! Blasphemy. I have had dogs my entire life in VT and for most of that time never owned a leash and it was never an issue. Only in the past few years have people become so uptight over unleashed dogs to the point of confrontation. Now this person can’t fathom the idea of a working dog because.. well they wouldn’t be leashed!!! Must be criminal behavior. How about you just shoot unleashed dogs on sight?

I really enjoy hunting dogs as well, but the owners always get so bent out of shape when I get one.

We need hunters. I’m happy whenever someone crosses over my property in chase. When I was a kid, posted sign’s didn’t exist and we went pretty much wherever we wanted.

Excellent reference!

Fuck hounds men. Run bears and cougars even out of season. Nice sportsmanship! Assholes Fuck your family traditions. Tree your kids instead of wildlife minding their own business.

nothing much dog, hbu?

I've been following Gold Shaw Farm for a few years too. After the 1st video he put out there about hound hunting, it seems to me that he has been targeted by hound hunters and has had way more exposure to it than most landowners.

That said, the right to hunt and trap on open land (private or public) has been enshrined in the Vermont constitution since the beginning. The state does seem to skew policy toward hunting rights over landowner rights. From what I understand, you have to jump through numerous hoops on an annual basis to make your land officially a No Hunting zone. If you miss any of those hoops, your land is open to hunting whether you have signs up or not.

He talked about how hard it is to post your land once. About having to put up new signs every year matter what. And if one falls of by nature your sol if you don't see it.

Until one of those dogs attacks your kid or animal. Or one of the hunters with dogs gets shot or his dog gets shot because someone is new in town and doesn't understand tradition.

It does seem pretty onerous for farmers, who may have 100+ acres.

> I understand these towns sound a little more rural than most but it's kinda terrifying to think people are just letting their hunting dogs roam uncontrolled through communities.

VT allows dog hunting. There are laws and rules around it. If someone is letting their hunting dogs roam uncontrolled through communities their are breaking those rules.

Don’t condemn a whole group of people over a couple bad actors.

Flatlander

This is vicious and cruel and you’re being upvoted.

That’s so cringe.

Poetic

What?! Your kid was attacked by a dog? When/where? You should report that crime immediately and I hope dog and owner are held fully accountable.

Properly trained hunting dogs are trained to not do that.

Living next door to a shelter dog is statistically far more dangerous. Unleashed dogs on Mt Philo corner and scare dozens of people a week. What’s your concern with that?

Should we change a long standing Vermont tradition and law simply because of YouTube or Facebook involvement? No. Thankfully an influencers voice and vote still counts the same as everyone else here in Vermont. No more and no less.

Exactly

This post should be removed for advocating cruelty to animals.

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The state Constitution makes all land (including private) in Vermont open to public use for hunting/fishing/foraging. Unless legally posted - which is difficult to maintain as it requires registering with the town and reposting annually - then the land is open for use.

Same as everywhere else, lot of people moved in from places where "private" property means everyone stays out. And don't understand the state's requirements for posting.

Their ignorance, combined with Vermonter attitudes of "I've always done it this way", leads to confrontations. Add in that dog hunting is considered inhumane by many, and has fallen out of favor in other states, it's bound to happen.

Personally, I think dog hunting for large game needs to be done away with. But I see why people cling to it.

You have to post the land every year cause jerkoffs just read them down and go in anyway.

I hunt with my dog, albeit for birds (mostly grouse) not big game or anything like that. It’s one of my dog’s greatest joys in life (maybe me too). I hunt on public land or private land with permission, even though permission is not needed if it’s not posted. She stays within 100 yards of me. I try to be as respectful as possible to others and their property. I support people upholding their traditions, doing what they love etc., however I do not appreciate the entitlement of some of these folks, it’s not everyone, heck, it’s probably a small minority but the bad apples can be the most visible and irritating to others. It makes us all look bad and legislation has been introduced in various states because of this, that calls to ban all dog hunting.

Some people are just going to be anti hunting across the board but I guess what I’m trying to convey to non-hunters is that we’re not all douche bags, but also to other dog hunters: don’t fuck it up for the rest of us.

Tell you what if I see dogs hunting on my property you can guarantee you that their heads will be hanging on my wall......

Dog hunting for bears is very common in Maine

Yes.

But if it is legally posted it is trespassing on the first offense.

If not posted, first offense your only recourse is to tell them to get out.

>what is up dog

Not much dog, what is up with you?

Loose dogs where?

Absolutely, I was hunting in Alburgh this year and if I saw a faded posted sign that was placed two years ago you bet your ass I’m going to set up a tree stand if it’s prime territory.

Funny thing is it’s not even illegal to do! Has to be posted in regular intervals and you need to update your signs biannually.

The best deterrent really is to use “no hunting or trapping signs”

Or "trespassers will be shot"

Nard dog

The out of control dog hunters are ruining it for other hunters. By not respecting others property it makes people just post it. So people like you can't use it. It happens in Maine. People dump their trash or ride ATVs off approved trails and people post the property because they are sick of the disrespect. And rightfully so. But respectable hunters and satv/snowmobilers pay the price

Who's is?

And then they probably brag about the kill as if they did all the work

Yes

Can’t technically do anything about trespassing, we don’t have castle doctrine in the state. Closest you can get to shooting someone is if there is “grievous bodily harm imminent to you or someone else”

Your last sentence is key. It's up to hunters to keep their tradition responsible, not the rest of us to deal with the irresponsible ones.

Well they are coming into other people's property with guns and aggressive dogs. But I know what you are saying.

I had family use bloodhounds for tracking and cornering. Really isn’t that big of a deal, unfortunately you have a group of mentally ill purple haired freaks from out of state that are vehemently against rural culture here.

Even though the dogs not actively attacking the animal more so just barking and corralling these people will swear back and forth that you’re torturing bear cubs or some shit.

Frankly, I think it’s an integral part of our culture up here and also who tf wants to jump in freezing water to retrieve a duck or bird? It’s almost like dog breeds with “Retriever” in its name was bred to bring back game lol

Even if your property is posted if you have cornered/injured game you’re still legally allowed to retrieve it.

How would you feel if your dog escaped ran into my property chasing a rabbit or other small game and I shot it because i viewed it as aggressive?

If you’re so concerned about it repost the land, and set up game cams on your perimeter to catch people trespassing and calmly ask them to not and if they do again you’ll call the police on them for trespassing.

Not really rocket science here.

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Born and raised rural VT'er that grew up with hunting dogs on the farm so not a purple haired freak out of stater here. My 68 year old life-long hunter dad is very much against what hunting with dogs has become in this state. Unfortunately a few bad apples does ruin the bunch. My parents still farm in the NEK and have had to deal with rude, disrespectful "hunters" and poorly trained dogs that harass livestock, traipse through the yard right next to the house, and lazy ass hunters that drive through fields to follow dogs because walking I guess is too difficult these days. And for the deer hunters, the innards left right near grazing fields that attract coyotes when fall lambs are still young. Hunting "culture" has changed and although you can argue its just a few, it's enough that people just don't want to deal with it anymore. After 200+ years of the family farm being open, my parents started posting 10 or so years ago. It sucks, but they're getting too old and tired to deal with the crap and the picking up garbage. And before mentioning out of staters, I'm pretty sure that most of this is local folks as they are pretty off the beaten path.

I just don't understand the logic. Even if the signs are out of date, it's clearly the intention of the landowner that there be no hunting on their land. What if the owner fell ill and couldn't update their signs? Or was low on cash? Waterproof signs on a high acreage farm is no small investment. Just because it's legal doesn't mean the hunter isn't being an asshole. Why invite a potential confrontation?

As long as the dogs are properly trained it shouldn't be too much of an issue right? I see it as an easy way to get your dogs (and possibly yourself) shot of the dogs are just out attacking farm animals, pets, or people. I've never seen it in person but all I've seen on the Internet or TV the dogs always seemed pretty well trained to only go after something specific like bears or something.

In 8 years of hunting on private and public land in the north east and west portions of the state, I’ve only ever encountered other hunters. It’s not like I’m setting a blind in their backyard. A good portion of posted property is unused and usually skirts public land. if you follow basic courtesy and leave no trace most people will never know you were there to begin with.

If they’re unable to keep it posted or too ill to use their land I see no issues with people doing low impact activities on land they haven’t set foot on in two years.

As for the cost of posted sign you can buy 100 pack for $30. it cost $5 to register your property as posted each year. then you legally have to post signs every 400ft on your property border.

This article so seriously downplays that incident. The guy who owned these dogs is a well known asshole and nuisance in the town I grew up in, has no respect for landowners, and is seriously nasty to deal with when asked by landowners to keep his (obviously dangerous) dogs off of their posted property. He is not from the town he hunts in but spends a ton of time roaming all over my hometown, and others, during hunting season. I am scared for my parents every hunting season because of this guy and people like him. Guys like this give the entire tradition a bad name, and this incident shows how badly things can go wrong when the dog owner is not attentive or responsible.

That’s fair, I had only heard about the incident and this was the first article I came across.

Oh not meant as a criticism of you in any way, just wanted to add how scary this actually was, the woman was rightfully scared for her life.

All good, I just meant that there are probably better sources out there than the one I found. I love dogs, big dogs in particular, but a aggressive, 70 pound dog can kill a person, let alone an elderly person and their small dog. The outcome of that incident could’ve been so much worse.

When I ran into those dogs, it was a good 30 minutes before the hunters showed up to collect them. They had to have been a couple miles away at least. When they did show up, they came driving down the dirt path on an electrical line clearing.

I run into dogs while I’m working in the field all the time, and that was the first time I came across dogs that obviously didn’t live right where I saw them. Most of the dogs I run into are really friendly, they just come up to check me out and then go back home. I did have one incident where I was measuring a culvert, and I heard barking in the distance. Three big dogs were barreling down the road towards me and I hopped into my car through the passenger side to avoid them. That was the only time I’ve ever had a serious issue.

Imagine you’re an 85 year old land owner with 200 acres of wooded property. How hard / easy would it be to post every 400 feet? It would be pretty hard I’m sure. It’s not a cost thing.

My sister lives out west, she has lot more than one dog to a farmer not taking kindly to her dogs chasing cattle.

> People dump their trash or ride ATVs off approved trails and people post the property

Believe it or not it is already illegal to both dump trash and ride ATVs on other people's property.

It shouldn't be easy to infringe someone's constitutional rights.

Unless the property is properly posted you aren't a trespasser.

Your signs have to be dated and renewed every year even if no one rips them done

Morgan Gold is a giant pile of human excrement. Moves here from the city, buys a bunch of land (100+ acres) while working corporate gig. Pretends to be just this little farmer, but in reality he is a rich guy from out of state who has worked high level corporate communications jobs for big companies. He came here, and is trying to change the state. He intentionally creates conflict where none is needed in order to further his agenda against hunters. His land was not legally posted, and yet he treated a hunter who was ASKING FOR PERMISSION (being a responsible hunter) like the guy was somehow the devil for carrying on traditions as old as the state.

This is idiotic. Hounds men are the single best tool wildlife managers have to reduce human bear conflict. Unless you want Toto to be eaten by the local black bear when he breaks into the house, you should respect what houndsmen do to instill a healthy fear of humans and dogs in the bear population. Sure it’s probably scary for the bear, but that’s the point.

Why the fuck do you need to post 400 acres of woods if your 85 and can’t walk through the woods? That’s the point. Rights are in the constitution. It’s intentionally difficult to post land because it’s not in the interest of the community

$5 isn’t a lot of money but why should anyone have to pay a fee to keep people off their property?

Because that’s what the law says.

Constitutions are meant to be changed

If hunters consistently allow their dogs to enter posted private property, do what I do. Put bowls of dog food out in your fields. Bear hunters hate it when you feed their dogs, who they intentionally keep underfed.

The law says it needs to be posted?

Jesus.. that's not surprising

Wasn't he asking permission as his uncontrolled dogs ran through the property. Just yards from Morgans livestock?

Although, according to the Vt Fish & Wildlife website, you still need permission to set that tree stand, whether the land is posted or open. https://vtfishandwildlife.com/learn-more/landowner-resources/private-land-and-public-access

We’ve have no problem with hunters on our land. Most are respectful and even though we do not post, we had a hunter call us for permission to go after his dogs, that had treed a bear on our land. No problem. We do have a problem with finding lawn chairs and tree stands and other paraphernalia left behind by hunters who did not ask for permission for the stand, and who leave trash behind. It’s a reciprocal respect. We respect to right to hunt, as long as the hunter respects our land.

And like you said, a respectful hunter will come and go, and you’ll never know they were there.

People leaving crap is definitely an issue. I hunted during the last rifle season. the same blind and tree stands were left for over 2 weeks… not once did I see someone it and I started early in the day and would leave early like 2 hours before sundown. Never saw anyone in them.

After the season went back and all of this gear was still just left in the woods. Ended up going into the portable blinds no tags or info. My theory is they got a deer and left since I was two/three miles in the woods.

Needless to say the blind is now sitting in my garage for next season haha

Fair point. I’ve done the same and the dogs aren’t strays.

Haha, finders keepers, then. You tried!

Because 80% of people who own more than 50 acres realistically only use 4 acres for their house, garden, and whatever rec space they may have.

I’m specifically referring to undeveloped woodlands that border public and federal land. It’s such a small and trivial fee that if they cared enough about it they would post their own land. Or at the very least put up several bo hunting signs.

Keep your walking drooling shit factory on your own land and there wont be any problems,lol.

Gravy Sponge for the win!

I am not a hunter or was a brought up hunting. Yet I respect everything you said. If people want to responsibly follow their passions, whatever that might be, I applaud them for it. I am a bit wary of dogs though since I have been bit before. So I understand the trepidation of the original post.

People moving in seem to think that hunting, trapping, and shooting are banned in Vermont? It's absolutely surreal. The outside idea of the state is so different from the actual state of VT that it's mind-boggling.

There is an early season where you can let your dogs hunt, but are not allowed to harvest the animal. It’s allows for training of the dogs.

You can not shoot a dog chasing a deer. A game warden can, but a normal person can not.

The VAST majority of hunters will respect your no trespass sign whether or not it’s properly posted.

To pretend that this rich DC prick has “livestock” is just dumb. He has a farm so he can be an internet attention whore. He isn’t a farmer, he doesn’t need the animals, he isn’t homesteading. He has some ducks that he posts videos of online, and has convinced people that he is a real farmer. He moved from suburbia to buy farmland in VT and then immediately started to impose his DC agenda on the state. I’m progressive as they come when it comes to human rights, but for fuck sake, why come to a state and try to limit the freedom of the locals?

Also worth noting a typical bear dog is probably better trained than your typical 6 year old child. So sure these hounds ran onto his UNPOSTED land in pursuit of a bear, but they were no risk to any of his animals unless he was illegally keeping bears enclosed.

That’s a bold move Cotton… shooting someone’s $$$$$ registered and trained dog will likely not work out very well for you.

I can’t advise against this strongly enough in the NEK. Not only is it illegal and you would be liable for damages on what maybe a several thousand dollar hunting dog, but it’s likely to get you hurt. Your option is to call a Game Warden.

I try to understand how many people moving in think that hunting, trapping, and shooting are nonexistent or banned in Vermont. Or even worse, decided they should be. Are we portrayed as one large quaint suburb dotted with hip cities? We're more than wine tastings, VPR tapings, and "hobby farms" that are really just estates with a tax break. If you want tightly controlled suburbs, why not consider western Massachusetts and CT? No unleashed dogs or unenlightened rural people to ruin the vibe there.

I could go on for hours about this topic.

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You're 100% right, and I don't understand why you're being down-voted. Predatory species need to have some level of fear of humans to avoid animal attacks. I don't think these bizzare outraged people understand that bears are actually carnivorous when it suits them.

I used to live in Presque Isle, saw plenty of trapping and every now and then someone’s dogs would drive a few cattle through our property. Never saw any people supervising them so I kinda wonder what those dogs were getting up to.

LMAO, yeah screw that..i got every ( moral if not legal ) right to drive unwanted animals off my land.

Any land used for agriculture does not have to be posted and it is automatically trespassing to enter such land. This is the case in most of the USA, cultivated fields and livestock areas are always No Trespassing whether or not posted.

My family tradition is to steal anything we want with no consequences, why are these liberal snowflakes triggered by our ancient rituals?

You have absolutely no legal right to use an animal as a target whether it’s on your property or not. Whether you end up in court or the hospital will depend on the temperament of the dogs owner.

Keep your GD animals off land they are not wanted on! What TF is so hard to comprehend about that?! Sure you got the right to hunt..where you are allowed by the landowners and subject to their approval.

People like you are the reason that people like me have had enough and take the stand we do on this topic.

Dude I don’t even have dogs. I just told you not to go shooting other people’s animals. In the NEK no one is going to care about your keyboard warrior bravado and you’re going to get sued or hurt. And no a Hunter doesn’t need landowner approval, all land is open to the public unless the landowner posts it. You do you, but your computer screen and keyboard won’t help if you go shooting someone’s hunting dog. Good luck.

Well your concern has been noted, and is the cause for another landowner posting thier property. Happy now?

Im also pretty sure that the hunter in this hypothetical will end up being paper fucked 6 ways from sunday if they were to assault a landowner much less be dumb enough to actually open fire on one.

I’m pretty sure so would the person opening fire on a dog running through their field, the difference being that guy in the NEK may or may not actually care. Hunting Dogs are expensive and require a lot of time and effort to train, there’s also a lot of time spent in the woods bonding with the animal. Think of it more like shooting someone’s child that was wandering on your property… that’s a lot like how that hunters going to take it and they’ll either call the cops (you’re now in legal trouble), or take matters into their own hands.

Sounds like it’s probably in everyone’s best interest if you post your property and probably erect a fence. Of note, current use benefits require your land to be open and unposted so if you make use of that program you’d no longer be eligible for those tax savings. Enjoy your Sunday.

Just because it's illegal doesn't mean people won't do it

I don't encourage this but...I worked with a guy once and he was convinced his neighbors dogs were getting into his garbage (when he put it out for collection) and making a mess. The neighbors denied it. So he got some meat and let it age a little. Once it was ripe he mixed it with something I can't remember what but it might have been a small amount of antifreeze. Then he put it in his trash. Something eventually got into it. His neighbor called him later complaining that his dogs were vomiting all over the house.....

Not in Vermont apparently

^^^^^^

And presque isle is still pretty populated compared to the rest of the county.

He hunts himself. He just doesn't want uncontrolled dogs roaming his property stressing out his livestock. He can post it all he wants but dogs can't read.

If people could control their dogs it wouldn't be an issue

Someone let them out

I have a right to protect myself/family and animals from loud aggressive hunting dogs. We have a right to feel comfortable on our own property.

I'm sure some yellow signs will stop them!

[deleted]

It’s not really an issue now. You’ve got a few jerks out there sure, some running dogs and some video cameras and a YouTube channel. Thankfully these people are the exception and not the norm.

Can you please tell that to the people trying to push more gun control laws. Thanks

[deleted]

So you stole someone else’s property? Not something to brag about. If there was no identifying markings, you may assume it’s the landowners. I’ve got 10 stands around my property and a dozen game cams. If one catches you stealing my stuff expect a visit from the police and charges.

Pretty much. I think he left his job but he was a communications exec until recently.

I lost interest in his videos when they were just one fight/dispute after another and super click-bait-y.

He claims to hunt. But let’s all be honest, he doesn’t. I’ve met him in person, right after this whole thing went down, I asked him what his feelings were on using dogs to find a wounded animal if that meant the dogs crossed onto his land, he said he would not let someone retrieve a legally shot animal that entered his land. He is NOT a sportsman.

Grandfather used to run hunting dogs in the NEK, been a hunter all my life and I have a neighbor that runs his dogs responsibly and treats all of us neighbors respectfully. Unfortunately it only takes a few bad actors to destroy any good will the model hunters have earned.

I truly dislike Shaw from his videos and assume he's acting in bad faith, but unfortunately this type of hunting has too much potential for negative outcomes nowadays.

Vermonter here. Not mentally ill and purple haired, and I still think what you do is disgusting. I also have two rescue Labrador’s that were treated like crap. Guess what? They live a perfectly happy life on my couch and bed. They are 12. Grow up and get a life other than killing other animals. Those ducks will do just fine without you. You are grotesque.

Uh huh. I really want to laugh at your comment, but I don’t want to laugh at someone in need of mental health.

[deleted]

fuck those people. Just slash their tires to give them the hint they need.