Hey y’all, so I’m new to subbing in the local preschool our first kid attends. I don’t have an extensive background in teaching other than assisting in an early childhood center way back in college, but I am pretty shocked by the behavior of some of the kids. Nothing terrifying, but it makes me concerned about what elementary school could be like for my kid who will soon age into it the system. This concern is coupled with meeting a number of parents with toddlers from VT and NH in various public play settings that are already set to homeschool their kids.

I’m wondering if any public school teachers could chime in on their experience teaching in Vermont over the past few years. Unchecked behavioral issues in public schools seem so endemic to the entire country, but I’ve learned that it varies region to region. With Vermont dedicating such a high percentage of its property taxes to the school system, I wonder if our state is better off than others. I’m also curious to know what your relationships are like with admin, who appear to be undermining any attempts at managing unruly behaviors across the country.

I believe strongly in public education, but I’m worried about behavioral standards being set so low, (along with tying the teachers hands/blaming them for the kids behavior), that it becomes impossible to manage a classroom.

I started subbing last winter when my kids school said they would have to go remote due to lack of staffing. I sub in the middle school because apparently MS is the hardest age group for procuring subs. I had 1st block 7th grade “English” from January until the end of school and various other spots to fill the day from January until the end of March as I own a landscape construction company. I stayed on for the first block until the end of the year as I wanted to make sure the kids had some sort of normalcy for that class.

Your last paragraph hit my experience. There is a complete lack of accountability and zero recourse for bad behavior. Personally, I think that punishment should be reintroduced to the education system. The school I subbed at (and currently sub at) does not believe in before/after school detentions or any other real punishment towards the kids.

I am fortunate when it comes to subbing. I have coached or coach a wide variety of the kids 3rd grade through 9th grade and they kids are kind and respectful to me. I have deescalated situations across the board in middle school for actual teachers and I still find it pretty fucked up with what they deal with on the regular. I figure some of the respect they give me is because of the many hours I spend/have spent with them after school. I wonder if some of it is because they know I have their parents phone number in my pocket.

Not a teacher but these huge districts operating like a corporate top down business isn’t good for the kids or the teachers. Just an observation from a spouse that will likely be told to delete the comment…

Behaviors are intense and our students are tremendously traumatized from the past few years. Kiddos are incapable of regulating and are more violent in lower grades. It’s quite exhausting…pair that with the recent hoaxes across the state, not the best time to be a teacher. 😅

Budget keeps getting cut with programs we need related to social/emotional health, and wages are not worth it for teachers to endure the asylum like classrooms that exist now. Parents want to take no accountability for their violent kids so teachers just have to « deal with it ».

Not a teacher, but a SO of someone who recently left teaching. It’s brutal out there for teachers right now.

High expectations, high stress, low support, low respect. I’m not optimistic about the future of our country’s education.

Obligatory not a teacher. That said, this is how I see it and what I've gathered based on my info gathering.

Schools/admin aren't able (or willing in most cases) to address student behavior at all. The local school has a HUGE bullying problem even starting at the 3rd grade. It's "left to the parents" and if a kid is bullying they are obviously learning it somewhere.

So you end up in this...awful downward spiral. The behavior issues makes teachers leave/move but the position doesn't pay enough and isn't in line with the current rental/housing market so we aren't bringing in any qualified teachers or support staff.

No support staff means more work for teachers so more teachers leave and in the end we've got people with poor classroom management skills (because we aren't hiring "highly qualified" anymore, we are hiring "whomever will take it"). And then things get even worse and just keep spiraling.

Add to this the shit being taught (per state or federal standards) that's super not developmentally appropriate making kids feel either stupid or bored and it makes it even WORSE. Like, K kiddos are being taught how to write persuasive essays. Half the kids can't even READ yet.

Are there still some amazing teachers here? Absolutely. But it boggles my mind that anyone is sticking around honestly. It's gotta be impossible, demoralizing, and just straight up awful.

The whole "no recourse for bad behavior" is what scares me about the most about coming back to the US to teach (currently teaching at an Int'll school in Malaysia).

I'm totally on board with guiding kids through their problems, but there are limits to that. Some kids need to be read the riot and act and forced to do something unpleasant in order to correct their behavior.

My mother was a public school teacher, mine for many years. She always ended up spending her own money on class supplies. There is a lack of money and eventually they told her to stop writing her own curriculum and teach what was in the packet. That and no child left behind made her decide she had enough teaching.

I'm most concerned about my trans and fat students.

I’ve been teaching as an elementary classroom teacher for the last 4 years, but I’ve been working in VT schools for the last 10 as a 1:1 behavioral support interventionist (middle and elementary).

What I’m seeing now is that students are on a whole less socialized as they come into public schools. I attribute it to COVID and more kids who aren’t as socialized as a result of not doing preschool and spending more time at home. The last few years, I’ve seen our school’s kindergarten classrooms struggle with larger numbers of students who have very little sense of behavioral or emotional regulation. They had little to no routine or schedule at home, were often given free reign to do what they wanted, and lacked many of the skills required to follow directions, compromise, share, etc. that kindergarten typically requires to be smooth. (I very much do NOT blame parents; COVID, sickness, quarantining, closed daycares and preschools and financial constraints have made it incredibly difficult to raise a child at home with consistency, understandings of consequences, and certain social skills. When you’re burnt out, it becomes super hard to hold your kids accountable).

As far as how schools manage behaviors, it varies wildly by school and by district. The school I work at has lots of talented behavioral specialists and special educators and are working their butts off to make our current cohort of kindergarteners ready for 1st grade, and things have definitely been getting smoother.

Before I was a teacher I worked for CYFS out the HowardCenter and worked in schools across Chittenden county as a behavioral interventionist. I always saw the manner in which schools address and respond to student behaviors as a pretty wide spectrum.

Some rely heavily on outside organizations like Howard Center to pick up the slack, but some districts like South Burlington employ their own board certified Applied Behavioral Analysts to write behavior plans for students that need it.

Some are incredibly proactive and spend a lot of time making sure staff are using the same short hand language, focusing on the same behavioral/social skills, and following the same expectations school wide. Others just let teachers handle it in their own way as they see fit.

Ultimately, my biggest concern is how parents are able to support their children in the years leading up to public school, especially for oldest or only children. Lack of structure and consistency is causing our kindergarten teachers to have to play catch up in order to have a classroom in which learning can happen safely and calmly. (Definitely not for all families/students, but for more than usual).

Feel free to AMA.

MS/HS math teacher here.

Biggest concern is that the students are coming in with a fundamental lack of understanding what it means to be human. Yes, COVID messed us up and set a good cohort of kids back some years. Yes, some of my students deal with generational poverty and societal issues that are often adjacent to that poverty. But hot damn...I see 7th graders who act as if they've never seen a parent actually parent before. There is a wholesale mentality that personal responsibility isn't a thing, and it ends up biting these students once they hit high school and end up having to retake classes they've failed. (Because, you know, that doesn't happen until high school level.). And even though a good percentage of the kids do have issues, giving them rewards simply for showing up to class (no joke--they even get "scribes" to write for them), is not setting the students up for anything other than a massive sense of entitlement.

Thank you for taking the time to work through the writing of this.

Not a teacher, but support staff member in a VT school here. In addition to the behavior issues mentioned by others, there are a few things that come to mind.

• Large pay discrepancies between school districts- typically districts in more populated/wealthy areas have a higher salary scale than ones in less populated areas. These gaps make it hard for rural districts/schools to maintain consistent staffing as many teachers try to move into higher paying districts after a year or two. The constant staff turnover can have a major impact on school climate and consistency of instruction provided. Teachers absolutely deserve every cent that the higher paid districts can pay- it would just be great to offer that same level of pay throughout the whole state.
• Overall, the workload seems overwhelming. Even when teachers are not "on the clock", they are often planning lessons and replying to emails from parents/admin. During the school day there are things that fill up every minute- almost no down time. Dealing with the behavior issues is a big part of it. It's turned into the kind of job that can burn you out really quick- unless you can find a school/admin who really works hard to create a work/life balance, provides appropriate staff to support teachers, and gives plenty of time for planning.
• Support staff in general are often paid dramatically less than teachers- often times some of the lowest paid folks are the paraprofessionals who are working with specific students. These folks are often working in really demanding positions that require them to be fully engaged all day- the students that they are working with really rely on their support. It's wild that they are often paid so little when they are doing such important work. The low pay makes it hard to keep those positions filled, which can mean that sometimes students who need extra support are not getting it- and that can disrupt the whole classroom.

I also want to say that there are so many things that are going WELL in VT schools- educators and support staff really stepped up to the plate during remote learning, and now have adapted to meet so many of the new needs of students as in-person learning has resumed. Teachers have found so many new ways to engage and provide opportunities for students- VTer's should be really proud of our educators.

First thank you for working with young kids. But what shocks you in preschool behavior? Kids who are 3-4 are still very much learning to socialize. Lots of kids exhibit behaviors in response to the environments they are in - so, are they getting enough free play/self led time? Quiet time? Gentle coaching on social interactions?

Basically, nothing would shock me in preschool behavior. They are there to practice being part of a group several years before brain science tells us they truly understand what that means (age 6).

Sounds like the same reasons cops have been quitting for years.

Accountability matters. The state and your school districts don’t want accountability for themselves or the students.

You reap what you sow.

> Budget keeps getting cut

lol, when has a school budget even been cut in this state?

Edit: Literally every school budget I look up is up at least 20% from 2019. And that doesn't include the several million that every district received in COVID funds

Sometimes you have to inconvenience the parents for it be taken seriously. Make the parent come pick them up.

I send out emails as well, but I don't have the power to get them picked up.

With parents who care, it works.

Lack of accountability for students, parents and even admin

Not a teacher, but a type of specialist working in public school. The list is long but two things that come to mind are 1. an increase in unsafe behavior/extreme disruption and 2. failure to recruit and retain direct service staff (paras and interventionists) due to inadequate pay relative to the stresses of the job.

I am an educator and BCBA and have been working in VT public schools for a decade. The aggression and extreme disruption is a lot worse than many people (including parents) realize. Things like classroom evacuations happen frequently and are not reported in any official way. Inclusion means a lot of stuff happening in gen ed environments. We are doing the best we can but societal issues are leaking into the schools and we are out of space and losing staff.

I've seen more kids throw tantrums in higher years of school than ever before. Not to mention students behaving several years younger than they are in general. It's a social-emotional disaster. Not to mention many parents, when notified of their child's social problems, just say it's our fault and refuse to change anything at home. Actually, even worse, we've had several parents cut off school supports for their kids. They've pulled them from medications at home and counseling at school. It's just... It's bad. If my last job hadn't been so truly traumatic, I'd be in a bad place.

Not a teacher, but the Amway-ification of public education in the US.

The inversion of the broad foundation of our society to an system designed to funnel as much wealth as possible to an elite few.

Instead of wealthy parents paying public tax toward public education (in addition to private tuition) public funds being diverted to private schools with vouchers. Private testing companies failing public schools so they can be gutted for for-profit replacements that funnel children to for-profit "colleges" and a lifetime of inescapable debt―or essentially just indentured servitude, again.

Instead of a decent public education being accessible and affordable, schools become an engine to transfer wealth to the elite while at the same time depriving students of basic financial literacy, making them excellent marks for more scams.

Prohibitions on things like pyramid schemes creates a void in public awareness, which makes it possible they might return one day with a team of lawyers. If scammers are allowed to keep their ill gotten gains, they'll wreak havoc on society in new and terrible ways. They're want to sell kids a box of crap with misrepresentations about how much money they can make―they just don't want to be sued or their victims declaring bankruptcy.

Most importantly: civic, history and math teachers need ensure basic financial literacy before pressuring students to assume high-interest debt.

No high school senior that can't tell you approximately how much debt they'll be in after four years, how much their monthly payments will be, or what their refinancing strategy is should even consider going to college.

The senators that interviewed the former Secretary of Education didn't have the benefit of her financial disclosures, but any parent or educator should memorize every company she was invested in. Educators should research the companies that provide testing services, the companies that provide educational software, and which type of college their kids are heading off to.

EDIT:

Amway Pyramid Scheme - What You Need To Know - Arrest Your Debt

ProPublica: Voucher Program Helps Well-Off Vermonters Pay for Prep School at Public Expense

EDIT 2:

Upon reflection, the above metaphor may be a little too gracious.

Amway actually generates most of it's revenue from "educational experiences", learning materials and conferences. So to imply that there was some kind of "pivot" or innovation in this scheme is a bit of a stretch.

It's "literally" Amway―no cap, as the kids say. The state of Vermont is spending several million a year towards a giant MLM scam, while Fox News trolls parents into weaponizing their children against decency towards other human beings.

The kids are alright; teachers are great. The rotting fish smell is emanating from the top.

Aside: I didn't pay for my degree and I've obviously never been the victim of an MLM. So this isn't really my ax to grind.

If you’ve heard of inflation you know that the same thing costs MORE year after year. Additionally, staffing increases are standard when you have people remain longer than 1 year (raises). An increased budget absolutely does not mean that schools can get additional staff or services.

If the increases aren’t sufficient (which in most districts they haven’t been aside from getting an influx of covid money), then teacher positions get cut, social workers get cut, etc. Our schools are now operating as mental health triage on a daily basis, and families are in crisis (housing, jobs, home violence, food, etc) and there aren’t caseworkers or therapists to help more than 10% of those needing help. It’s dire.

Not a teacher but I worked in a support position until just before Covid. I would not consider being a teacher for any pay scale. It’s brutal.

First, they spend a good chunk of their time on non direct-teaching responsibilities, from addressing behavioral issues, to dealing with parents, to completing PBE report cards that can be six pages long.

Second, in my district they had little support when students acted out. I heard one student call a teacher in a same-sex marriage a faggot. Student was sent to the principal’s office only to return 20 minutes later. Other students had parents who threatened teachers for attempting to disciple their children. The most shocking might have been the student who called the principal a “mother f@er” in a crowded hallway. The principal just stood there and said, “That’s not how we speak to each other, is it?

It’s only gotten worse since Covid according to my friends who work as teachers and para educators.

I agree with all except for not placing any blame on the parents. It's 90% the parents. DCF has their hands bound because no one wants to foster so these kids are staying with their parents who don't give a shit about them and would rather have to schools raise their kids. Kids coming to school with bruises, multiple reports to DCF and nothing being done. There are kids going to kindergarten who aren't even bloody potty trained yet. Kids in third grade who can't even read or do basic addition yet don't have an IEP.

We are pulling our kid out of public school to go online because there is no learning anymore. All teaching time is taken up to correct behavior.

Not a teacher but a parent. I subbed in schools for 6 years and my mom recently retired from teaching in VT. My stepdad is a teacher, my bio dad and step mother are retired administrators.

My concern is r/teachers. My god. I read some of those posts and the negativity and how they clearly hate their students and I am scared for my daughter and her classmates.

Yes, budget cuts are real and are a concern. Programs are being taken away. My kid is and always has been a middle of the road kid. Not IEP, only on a medical 504, not high honors. She’s honor roll or just below. She’s in the group that all of the programs have been cut from. No more two day field trips to Plimouth. No more salmon swimming. No more ski program. No more enrichment.

So you have budget cuts that bring in teachers who hate teaching and hate the kids and what do you get? Unhappy, under educated students.

My mom said even with her worst behaved students, she tried to find at least one thing to like and connect with them on. What is so hard about that?

Let me put it to you easy you can either build billion dollar schools or billion dollar prisons your choice pick now!

Your welcome to come and teach. You probably wouldn't last a week. It's NOT the teachers. It's the parents who don't raise their kids properly and expect the school to do it for them.

It's too bad that teachers unions advocated and demanded policies that caused these issues.

Don't worry, kids are resilient.

Please enlighten me. What language in teachers contracts do you feel caused all these issues?

As I said, I subbed for six years and I loved it. I left because sub pay isn’t sustainable.

Granted, I didn’t have the expectations on me that teachers do, BUT I had to deal with classroom management and some tough kids.

Those people on that sub should not be teaching.

Were you alive during the 2020-2021 school year?

> wholesale mentality that personal responsibility isn't a thing

This seems to be the case for a lot more adults now too. See all the road rage posts.

This! It's a problem everywhere.

Equating subbing and teaching is a reach.

Subs don't do parent communication, they usually don't prepare lesson plans, they don't do grading, and classroom management is easier when you don't have to go back to those same kids eveey day, every week, every month after you have to confront poor behavior.

So don't judge people who are feeling burned out when they are doing FAR more than any sub and doing it for longer.

You're saying marathon runners shouldn't complain because you did a walk in the park when you wanted to.

I used to be a teacher, got out 10 years ago.

I loved the time I had with the students. Every other aspect of the job was becoming ridiculous and that was a decade before now.

I'm concerned by the lack of overall respect for professional teachers.

Parents question every grade, every assignment, every interaction. These are people who have degrees in the art and science of education and parents blame teachers because they're kid didn't study.

The community questions class sizes and teacher pay when classes are over crowded and teachers can't afford a home.

Administrators keep their jobs by bowing to parents and community members so they don't back up teachers. Forcing teachers into an overwhelming bureacracy so that they can justify their existence.

Then, when teachers quit, instead of improving working conditions we throw veterans, retirees, and the unqualified into these jobs and lower licensing standards "because if you can't do, teach".

Just because you sat in a desk for 12 years of your life doesn't mean you can or should tell teachers how to do their jobs.

Respect it as a profession.

I didn’t equate them at all. You must have misinterpreted what I wrote. I said exactly the same thing you just did, just in different words. I said I didn’t have the expectations teachers do, you just spelled out this expectations. We’re all on the same side here.

If teachers were paid like doctors our country would be so much better. Meaning the vocation would attract the best and brightest.

You mean when teachers were forced to work in enclosed spaces with children who are notorious for contracting and spreading illness while a lethal pandemic raged on? Why yes I was. Thank you for asking.

Not a Teacher, but my mother is a teacher. It feels like at least half the issues Schools are facing are due to a concerted effort by Conservatives to destroy Public Education. Whether those efforts are through inaction/underfunding or the latest manufactured Culture War “crisis”.

We take our toddler to library story-times and public play gyms; I hope she's socialized enough before kindergarten.

I'm guessing she will be! We've just been seeing a few kids enter public school who didn't attend daycare or preschool, had no siblings, and never did any kind of playdates or socializing, mostly all due to COVID. Even just 3-4 kids like that in a class of 20 can cause absolute chaos in kindergarten.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply! It makes me wonder if COVID is responsible for this shift in behaviors, or if it just accelerated this trend in public education. My mother has been a teacher most of her life, and she has noted that teachers have steadily been losing authority over the last 15 or so years. I have a few teacher friends from the NY/NJ area that have either quit teaching to go into curriculum planning, or are going insane.

I'm left wondering if it makes sense to opt into something private or online right out of preschool. I'm not worried about the quality of the teachers, but the detrimental experience of seeing kids day in and out never be held to account. Our experience with daycare was really rough- we only had him in a few half days a week starting at 2, just to get him used to socializing/separated from us- but it became very apparent that he was getting bullied (he wasn't very verbal at the time so it was hard to gauge). The staff would always just say "he had a great day!" despite his listlessness, and occasional scratches that I couldn't tell came from play or another kid. We pulled him from that, found a great preschool when he turned three, and has been thriving since.

I'm really worried about entering the public school, as the unchecked daycare kids are all headed that way. Our preschool is very parent involved, draws from all around the Upper Valley as opposed to just the town, and there are clear behavioral standards that have to be met. I feel like losing that could be devastating for him.

If you have a child, would you or are you comfortable with them going to your public school? If you had the choice, would you opt for something private?

I guess I would classify them as abnormally entitled behaviors? I worked in an EC center over a decade ago with 2-3 year olds. Sure, there was hitting and hoarding and all sorts of age appropriate-yet-maladaptive behaviors. I'm now subbing in a 4-5 year old class, and I'm seeing not just the aggression (that really should have been put in check by 3), but wildly age inappropriate aggression.

The other day, a 4 year old went up to another girl and declared her his girlfriend. She seemed on board enough to humor him, but then he wouldn't stop following her around. I waited on the primary teachers cue, who just said, "we don't do boyfriend and girlfriend here, just friends," and let it be, but the kid really persisted in invading her space. This went on until the point where she started saying, "no, stop, you're not my boyfriend." We were outside at this point, and he started grabbing her arm and yanking her towards him, until I went right up to his face, and pretty bluntly commanded him to let her go, saying "what did she just tell you?"

His eyes went as wide as saucers, and was in shock. Clearly no adult in his life had ever told this kid what he can't do to another person, and he ran off crying. I explained to him after why he had to respect other kids boundaries, and he seemed receptive, but I was left pretty stunned to see a 4 year old do that.

That's the most shocking example, but there is a pervasive attitude of (mostly the boys) that they are in charge. Maybe I'm sensitive to this kind of thing, but if that's now normal, I don't want my kid anywhere near it lol.

I’d definitely want my child to go to public school. I live in the district I work, but I’d still want them to have the chance to meet a wider demographic of peers by attending public school.

As a parent, is there a way you would go about handling a bullying problem? Like if your kid was getting targeted, and the administration refused to do anything about it- how would you handle the situation? Or if your kid felt like they couldn't learn in a classroom where the teacher had to constantly divest their attention from teaching to address the specific behavioral problems of certain students?

These seem like extremely common scenarios, but admittedly most of this comes from what I'm reading online, or the occasional conversation with parents in public play areas/teacher friends. It's all anecdotal, but I've really not heard a single positive thing from anyone's experience. I'd mostly be worried about my kid thinking the real world operated like these schools, where the most outlandish behaviors receive the most resources with no accountability.

I guess I'm hoping that the horror stories I hear about are just the most extreme examples being expressed by the most dissatisfied teachers. Like the Teaching subreddit would make you think public schools are some dystopian hells cape. I've not read a single positive story coming from it.

Where is this coming from?

For bullying if no progress is being made I’d force an in person meeting and ensure that when the meeting ends specific action will be taken or that my child is separated from the one in question. If it’s bad enough, legal action. Bullying has a very specific legal definition in VT and schools can be held very liable if they’re aware of it and do nothing.

Academically, any areas I had concern on for my child I’d find ways to work on at home or over the summer. I’m privileged enough to have the means that I’d be able to make up the difference in ensuring my child has the academic skills required to be successful moving on, at least within grades K to 6.

Within my school though, and from other teachers I talk to in my district, the kind of stuff worst case scenarios and hellscapes I’m hearing being described aren’t happening. That doesn’t mean they aren’t, but from my own perspective, things are maybe a little rough, but are still perfectly manageable. Learning is happening, fun is happening, social development is happening. Teachers feel supported, behavior response has to be triaged, but is still within the scope of being managed within the classroom and in a way that generally isn’t disruptive.