Submitted by BudsKind802 t3_1133zhb in vermont
Flimsy_Patience_7780 t1_j8o6i8b wrote
His stances are the furthest thing from provocative. Bigoted would probably be a better descriptive adjective.
bobrossjiujitsu t1_j8ofbsz wrote
Oh, is that what that word means? I had to look it up. It said, "bigoted (adjective): having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others."
Ok, let me try to use it in a sentence: because they were unable to meaningfully engage with the content of his viewpoint, the bigoted redditors resorted to insulting and defaming the police officer instead.
How did I do?
PPOKEZ t1_j8on4yq wrote
It's not intolerant to call out intolerance.
Whether you know it or not, you are now writing in defense of well proven misinformation on race and gender and it is okay to be intolerant of you and others who spout from the same sources. I know it sucks to have your voice not taken seriously in this conversation. It never will be.
bobrossjiujitsu t1_j8p0g26 wrote
That's not what the paradox of tolerance states. What it states is that being tolerant of intolerance may lead to an intolerant society, which is not a bad point and is perhaps what you actually meant. Either way, I appreciate your effort to discuss the issue rather just insulting me.
I would argue that the nature of what is tolerated or not tolerated is of critical importance because it is the content of the intolerance that determines its moral value. To illustrate, few people would criticize me for being intolerant of a convicted pedophile sharing a public space with my children. The content of my intolerance matters.
My contention is that it is reasonable to be intolerant of allowing boys to change in a girls locker room, even if those boys insist that they really strongly feel like they are actually girls. The reason I am intolerant in these circumstances is that my concern for the group of girls exceeds my concern for the preferences of the transgender person. While you may not agree and may feel like the girls just need to tolerate feeling uncomfortable in their own locker room, what I hope is that we can have that conversation without vilifying those who disagree with us, vilifying the uncomfortable girls, or vilifying the transgender person. Because we are clearly going to be talking about this issue for a very long time.
If this viewpoint makes me intolerant, and if it is morally permissible for you to be intolerant of my intolerance, then you are in the awkward position of having to figure out how to censure/exile/execute nearly half the country. Instead, I would recommend trying to change our minds instead, and maybe we'd all benefit from that endeavor.
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j8pz74b wrote
Some views make you incapable of doing a job, through sheer incompetence. If the firefighter arrives at your house and thinks fires have rights to exist then We Got Beef right? Any views a cop concerning equal protection has are germane because they deal with the public. Did you even read the article? He’s a known official liar and abuser of rights. He should eff off
Flimsy_Patience_7780 t1_j8ofy9y wrote
A full grown man in a position of power should not be going after a 14 y/o girl and calling her voyeuristic because she chooses to use the restroom/locker room with which she identifies.
Not sure about you, but I don’t know many full grown men who bully minors about their gender and journey of self discovery/personhood. And the ones I do know can most certainly be described as bigoted.
bobrossjiujitsu t1_j8oma0i wrote
Why would you say he's going after a 14 year old girl and not protecting a group of 14 year old girls? Who is really the victim here? Why does your concern for well-being only extend to the person with the transgender identity?
Rachel Dolezal identifies as a black woman, and she worked tirelessly to advocate for that community for most of her adult life. Yet when she was discovered to be a biological white woman, she was castigated and cancelled. Why do we accept some forms of self-identification and not others?
Intelligent-Hunt7557 t1_j8phaiw wrote
Do you know why reactionaries who wet their pants over people getting “cancelled” are boring? It’s a facade. No one ever got cancelled. You know how I know? Mel Gibson is still making movies. What was a news oddity about Dolezal is someone choosing to give up white privilege. It’s almost inconsequential.
oldbeardedtech t1_j8ojebm wrote
Probably because you don't know any with daughters in said school
Flimsy_Patience_7780 t1_j8ol5um wrote
I will not argue with some rando on Reddit about trans rights. Continuing to spew transphobic rhetoric and paint literal children out to be predators will always be a pathetic look.
[deleted] t1_j8ot0us wrote
This debate will never be productive because parents have a legitimate concern about keeping girls safe. There is a long established reason for having male/female sports, spaces and activities.
Calling everyone who is concerned for their kids safety a transphobic bigot does absolutely nothing to deal with anyone's concerns.
Imagine if they made a girl play on the boys soccer team. We would all call that out as wrong because there is a reason we have male/female sports (size, power, safety). It is asking a lot of people to just toss out all of their beliefs about sex without any discussion.
That said, for a cop he needs to be a neutral authority figure and shouldn't weigh in on social issues publically.
edit: the fact that people only downvote and try to attack me personally only proves my point more. Nobody has a coherent response to the idea that there is a positive value to male/female only spaces.
[deleted] t1_j8ow2xf wrote
Damn dude, you post more about trans stuff than I do and I’m actually trans lmfao
[deleted] t1_j8ownig wrote
That's what I do if I can't come up with a coherent response. Stalk someones profile!
[deleted] t1_j8oy31r wrote
Nah, I saw multiple comments by you in this thread and was curious what the hell you were on about. How many hours have you poured into being this?
It’s a bullshit argument. What exactly do you think is going on? Tons of opportunistic little boys wanting to flip their dicks out in girls locker rooms are pretending to be girls? Do you understand how fucking terrible it is to be trans? But yeah people are pretending so they can reap all the benefits lmao.
What are you protecting anyone from by pushing this ignorant garbage? It’s a complex issue for sure and part of me is glad as fuck I stayed closeted as long as I did. The way this “argument” is always framed comes from some imaginary place, there’s no basis to this shit in reality.
[deleted] t1_j8oyq5q wrote
> Do you understand how fucking terrible it is to be trans? But yeah people are pretending so they can reap all the benefits lmao.
This has literally nothing to do with anything I said.
For the modern history of the USA we have had male/female sports and male/female changing rooms. We even have male/female summer camps... It isn't always about sexual predation, sometimes it's just you don't want 17 year old boys and girls butt naked showering together at a public school.
Why do we have male/female sports? In order to allow women to show their athletic talent and compete safely even in the face of male genetic advantage.
It is just factually true that there is a competitive and safety based reason we have male/female sports.
In no way am I advocating hurting or causing any disadvantage to trans people. The fact that you immediately jump to that angle and try to make it seem like I'm advocating genocide just highlights the weakness of your points.
[deleted] t1_j8p11s5 wrote
It has everything to do with it. On a basic level you don’t accept or trust trans people so we must keep them segregated. Boys with boys and girls with girls, unless they’re trans. Why is there never mention of trans boys in the boys locker room?
Lmao, come on. 90% of your comments are bullshit opinions on trans issues, but yeah I’m sure you’re one hell of an ally. You’re spending large amounts of your time to spread ignorant trash. Genocide? Yeah, having issues with the way you’re approaching this means I think you’re calling for genocide. Not quite, but you do come off as a bit of a douche ahah
[deleted] t1_j8rk60f wrote
> On a basic level you don’t accept or trust trans people so we must keep them segregated.
Not at all what I said. I simply believe there are legitimate reasons behind female only changing rooms and female only sports.
You can't come up with a coherent response so you just attack me.
[deleted] t1_j8rm2ma wrote
Lol keep playing the victim
[deleted] t1_j8rxeeq wrote
In no way am I a victim. I'm just pointing out that instead of responding to what I said you spent two paragraphs mischaracterizing what I said or attacking other comments I made.
It is what happens when someone sees your point and can't come up with a good response.
Again, none of my points are based around the idea of not accepting or trusting trans people. I just believe that we have valued exclusive male/female spaces for hundreds of years and if we want to abolish that we should be able to have a reasonable discussion about the pros and cons.
[deleted] t1_j8rxpk0 wrote
You haven’t responded to half of what I’ve written dude. This “I’m just trying to have a conversation” bullshit is exhausting. GLHF
[deleted] t1_j8s5tlr wrote
> This “I’m just trying to have a conversation” bullshit is exhausting. GLHF
Your previous comment was just "lol keep playing the victim" and you literally do not respond to any point I made. Hypocritical.
You are the one who has tried to insult in literally every single comment you made. My point is that people have real concerns about the abolition of female only spaces and should be able to have a dicussion without people like you just attacking them.
[deleted] t1_j8s6rs8 wrote
“The abolition of female only spaces”
Lmao this is the problem and yet you fail to see how fucking shit this take is. You’ve already made up your mind and continue to repeat the same ignorant points.
Please, find some more threads to rehash the same trash arguments and receive the same responses. You’ve pushed this shit and the “sanctity of women’s sports” nonstop on this account, and when you don’t get support you just repeat it somewhere else. What a waste of fucking time. This shit is no different than the white dude explaining racism or the man explaining why women don’t face real issues. Have fun wasting your time, this is pathetic.
[deleted] t1_j8s8y9a wrote
Ok do you support the abolition of female only spaces?
[deleted] t1_j8s9rsn wrote
Yes, of course. We should actually kill all cis women. This is the goal of the trans after all.
Get real dude, no one is trying to get rid of women’s spaces. You’re making up a bogey man and pushing it like it’s fact. There’s no substance to your arguments, just “oh no there’s men in the girls locker rooms!”. Do you support trans boys in women’s spaces? Do you support trans boys in women’s sports? Do you expect a young trans girl to participate in male sports? Do you actually care about children or just some of them when it’s convenient?
I’m done responding to this shit, it’s already been a huge waste of time lmao.
[deleted] t1_j8t52rj wrote
See my point stands because you literally refuse to answer a very basic question without making ridiculous jokes.
You literally cannot just respond... everything involves a word salad trying to wiggle out of answering.
Are there any situations where it is ok to have female only spaces or should males be allowed in if they want to?
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j8p8xl4 wrote
I’ve read this thread. You raise some reasonable and valid points. I disagree with your general stance in that I don’t believe this is an instance where a boy was taking advantage of the rule where he can use the locker room of the gender she identifies as.
If I thought was the case I would have a different opinion. If I thought someone was taking advantage of that policy to see a boob I would say that is an issue that needs to be addressed regardless of how they identify.
I don’t really care if you are concern trolling or whatever it was called. You asked for a good faith engagement, I hope my response offered one.
[deleted] t1_j8rjyi0 wrote
> I disagree with your general stance in that I don’t believe this is an instance where a boy was taking advantage of the rule where he can use the locker room of the gender she identifies as.
I don't think that is what was happening here either, that is why I kept my points general. In this specific case I agree with the criticism of the police officer: cops can have opinions but it is in bad taste to air them publicly.
I think we get too caught up in specific instances. We have to ask ourselves "is the concept of female only changing areas a hateful, bigoted idea or is it based out of legitimate concerns?"
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j8romth wrote
>is the concept of female only changing areas a hateful, bigoted idea or is it based out of legitimate concerns?
And the answer is "it depends"
Reddit is not good at nuance.
[deleted] t1_j8oy6ri wrote
[deleted]
LaGruntaInnAndResort t1_j8p4888 wrote
Because you’re not worried about kids safety. You’re calling for transgender men to be forced back into women’s sports, locker rooms, and bathrooms.
Also, mens sports have no rule stating women cannot participate. The only reason it doesn’t happen is misogynists stopping it.
[deleted] t1_j8rleio wrote
> Also, mens sports have no rule stating women cannot participate. The only reason it doesn’t happen is misogynists stopping it.
The main reason is actually the inherent male physical advantage. If you compare track times for males vs females there is essentially no level that female athletes can compete with men on.
This is why it is important for female only sports. People like Serena Williams wouldn't even be able to go pro if there weren't women's categories.
mellercopter t1_j8pup6n wrote
I think most girls and women have a legitimate concern about keeping themselves safe and no one seems to be too concerned with our opinions about how either. We aren't worried about sharing bathrooms with trans women or playing on coed sports teams, we're worried about being killed by our male partners and raped by male strangers and even family members. Nothing you are advocating for actually protects women or girls from the things that are most dangerous based on facts.
There are places advocating for lowering the age of legal marriage, permitting perpetrators of domestic violence to continue to own firearms and giving convicted rapists less jail time than someone with unpaid parking tickets and you choose to focus on who's shitting in the stall next to me. Absurd.
[deleted] t1_j8rjrev wrote
I actually focus on that as well. I believe we need to be much harsher on people who commit sexual abuse.
The idea that anyone who thinks "perhaps a women's sports league is a good thing" is an insane bigot is nonsense.
mellercopter t1_j8rmiux wrote
Women's leagues do exist, we don't need you to advocate for them. They're already here. You keep mentioning sports teams with trans women specifically and implying that they are unsafe but don't seem to be concerned about trans men competing. I've watched female rugby players absolutely demolish fully padded football players so let's not pretend like it's not possible for genders to fairly compete. Considering most female athletes are not paid equitably, treated with the same respect, or provided with the same resources I don't think that most of them would be worried about trans athletes impeding their ability to make a career in sports. Maybe your energy would be better spent in pushing equity regardless of gender if you'd like to further parity in women's sports.
If you really truly do care, then start advocating for folks to focus on better protections for people from things that are actually dangerous, which to this point in this thread you have actually yet to do. It's not about the safety of your daughters or your wives, if it was making sure they aren't interacting with trans women wouldn't be high or on your list of priorities at all. Half the time people (myself included) can't even clock if a person is trans or not, because honestly really what does it matter to you. And for the love of whatever god you may believe in, stop speaking FOR us or OVER us. We can communicate our concerns just fine on our own.
[deleted] t1_j8s5jde wrote
> Women's leagues do exist, we don't need you to advocate for them.
The entire premise of the discussion is that people want to open up women's leagues for males.
>but don't seem to be concerned about trans men competing
Because in general people who are biologically female will not be competitive in a mens league. Also if they are on T that is a banned substance.
> don't think that most of them would be worried about trans athletes impeding their ability to make a career
I'm in a running club and train with some very competitive women. I think that is insane to believe that someone who is running 60 miles a week or more just wouldn't mind losing their spot. The idea that someone could train for 6 months for a race and wouldn't mind losing that spot to an athlete with a bio male body is not reasonable.
I also race skimo, where there is a strong mtf trans athlete competing for a spot on next year's national team. She is a great athlete but if she gets in the top 3 for the specific division, that means a female athlete who competed will not get the spot.
>If you really truly do care, then start advocating for...
I'm interested in sports. It is ok to talk about issues in sports even though there are more pressing issues in the world.
mellercopter t1_j8sgni1 wrote
I don't know what article you read, but the premise of the discussion had nothing to do with opening women's leagues to anyone. It has to do with a cop advising via a public newspaper that a 14 year old should be charged with voyeurism under the guise of keeping children safe for utilizing a locker room that they were legally permitted to use under state law.
To address your other concerns, testosterone testing in sports is not an accurate measure for cis or trans people as is evidenced by the Olympics continued disqualification of African women from track and field because their natural testosterone levels were testing "too high" for females. There is no standard for what a person's testosterone should be if they are male or female as it is largely dependent on the individual and the time of testing. Women's testosterone levels fluctuate throughout the day and throughout their cycles. Additionally trans men are and have been competitive in men's sports and the same goes for trans women, both before and after transition. Here's a great link to some examples: 25 Transgender Athletes You Should Know
I'm not sure if it's intentional, but when you say that a trans woman could take a spot from a female athlete you are implying that trans women aren't women. I would encourage you instead of making assumptions about how these women might feel, maybe have discussions with them first. I could not imagine being so entangled with a recreational sport that I would feel the need to ostracize and individual or group simply trying to participate in societal norms. If you are an athlete who's in it to compete against other people and win rather than to compete against yourself and improve I would imagine you're not gonna have a good time most of the time and you're probably not super fun to be around.
The idea of a gender binary is not only biologically inaccurate, but also culturally was only introduced through colonization. Trans men and women are revered in a large number of indigenous groups, including Native Americans. While it's fine to have talk about sports, the origins of the discussion were an article where a person in a position of power was openly supporting criminalizing a teenager who is already at a high risk of being a target of violence. It also serves to ignite a conversation about an issue that doesn't exist, implying that trans women and girls are dangerous and predatory. VT is not a state in a vacuum, Fern Feather was killed less than a year ago.
[deleted] t1_j8t640j wrote
I didn't say anything about testosterone levels in female athletes. That has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I am specifically talking about allowing biological males, which have a long established physical advantage, to compete in biological female divisions.
>I'm not sure if it's intentional, but when you say that a trans woman could take a spot from a female athlete you are implying that trans women aren't women.
No, I am working on the fact that they are not female. In each event in track and field, on the olympic level, each country sends three male and three female athletes.
I literally have competed against a trans athlete in Vermont that is trying to get one of the three spots in this sports national under 20 women's team. If she achieves it, the national team will have to bump whoever was the third best female in this sport that year. This would mean that in this sport we will have 4 males now and just 2 females.
>The idea of a gender binary is not only biologically inaccurate
My friend, to reproduce humans need exactly one male and one female. Birth defects are NOT related to the concept of transgender and do not inform this debate at all.
>Fern Feather was killed less than a year ago.
This is honestly a ridiculous tactic. I am only speaking about the push to allow males into previously female only spaces. In no way does talking about this argue that we should kill people.
It is shocking how any discussion about the role of sex in society goes... if you even discuss it activist types will say that your discussion is causing murders.
mellercopter t1_j8t9k8c wrote
You spoke of using testosterone being unallowable in sports, which is false. Try reading the article I linked and you will see examples of Olympians who have transitioned hormonally and have competed after transition.
You talk about biological sex as if there are only two which is scientifically (not socially) false as is the idea of a gender binary (again scientifically and in this case socially as well).
You refer to trans people based on your perception of their biological sex which is terfy. In order to reproduce you need a person with a uterus who is capable of carrying a fetus to term, and a fertilized egg, good old science has shown you don't require sperm so your male and female requirement is inaccurate.
Referring to genetic conditions as birth defects is also incorrect.
It's not a ridiculous tactic to site the death of a marginalized community member who lived in the geographical vicinity of the same marginalized group you are reducing to genitalia. There is no push to allow men in female spaces, you're not welcome and we don't want you there. But I will welcome any trans woman who is interested with open arms.
We are discussing gender, not sex. And I have not once said that simply discussing it leads to murders, but I did say that we don't live in a vacuum in VT and our community isn't immune to the type of violence that is perpetrated against this community around the world just because VT is "progressive". Words matter, they guide action and bothering and excluding individuals absolutely leads to violence. Whether it is external or self inflicted. But enjoy your runs, cause honestly that's the top priority here right?
[deleted] t1_j8tbso7 wrote
> In order to reproduce you need a person with a uterus who is capable of carrying a fetus to term, and a fertilized egg, good old science has shown you don't require sperm so your male and female requirement is inaccurate.
lmao this is clownish. Name one person who was born from a female with no sperm fertilizing the eggs. Human reproduction requires the two sexes to combine.
>You talk about biological sex as if there are only two which is scientifically
There are in fact just two sexes. Plenty of people have deformities but in terms of species normal reproduction, it requires a male and female. In typical development without any genetic issues or deformities there are just two sexes. Denying basic facts like that is just silly.
>We are discussing gender, not sex
See you aren't listening very well. When parents are concerned about their daughters competing against males they are talking about sex. Gender is a set of beliefs and behaviors that people engage in... this isn't about whether you wear long hair or not, it's about biology. Males and females are different and the differences are real.
mellercopter t1_j8tgoyf wrote
It is very apparent you don't work in a scientific field, that your opinions (which is what you keep insisting are facts) are not based in any reality where research exists and that you are singularly fixated on continuing to repeat absolute garbage in the hopes that you're gonna stumble on a gotcha. You're right, I'm not listening because you're not talking you're writing. See how words are important. Again, if you weren't informed someone was trans in a lot of instances you would never know. It's not about sex it's about the gender you perceive someone to be and there are plenty of cis women that are in sports that you would likely label as trans using your dated assessment of what a woman should present as. Here's 75% of the work done for you, in case you don't read them one article states that trans women do not in fact dominate women's sports when they participate, in fact they lose quite often. I hope you read at least some of it and with that I'm all set on entertaining your drivel.
What do we mean by sex and gender
The idea of 2 sexes is overly simplistic
Scientists create human embryo without sperm
Transgender people over four times more likely than cisgender people to be victims of violent crime
[deleted] t1_j8thqnh wrote
Ok can you give me an example of someone who was born without any sperm being involved? You literally said that you don't need a sexual binary to reproduce and I'm very curious.
Your example of an embryo is very interesting for treating some diseases but is not in any way reproduction without the sexual binary.
In terms of sport I appreciate Scientific American as a pop culture science mag but it isn't a research study. The article you talk about makes a normative argument for your position.
This one makes an objective argument about the advantage males have. It's also an actual research paper, not a magazine link.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3
Also the articles on intersex are irrelevant. That is a physical condition that is abnormal. Transgender is a mental state with no physical basis.
mellercopter t1_j8tszwf wrote
I appreciate your willingness to engage in a good faith dialogue, sincerely.
What I said was that sperm is not needed in order to reproduce, but that you needed a fertilized egg and a uterus to grow it in. And it isn't currently needed in a ton of species and is very close to becoming a reality for humans. The research in the UK was primarily focused on creation of non-viable embryos which could be culled for stem cells which would allow for regeneration of specified cells for healing damaged tissues, regrowing tissues, treatment of ALS, Parkinson's, cancer, etc.
The focus of a 10 year Israeli study veers towards reproduction without both sperm and an egg to address all of the goals of the UK study as well as to eventually assist with the declining human population. They literally grow tiny artificial testicles in microchips which then produce sperm. They've been working on growing embryos in petri dishes and the mouse embryos have hearts and tails, they are mice. They are working on growing the synthetic embryos outside of a uterus in and artificial womb. It sounds scary, but so does one Professors recent propositions to start using brain dead women as incubators labeled whole body gestational donation. I would personally prefer matrix babies to my corpse being used as a greenhouse for humans, but I think it's also worthwhile looking into why fewer women want kids.
Your article on trans women in sports (btw there is a corrected version which outlines additional background to clarify potential conflicts of interest) outlines what the authors believe performance should look like based on testosterone suppression during transition. The article I linked was the results of actual outcomes of women's sports competitions including trans competitors and the actual outcomes demonstrate that the predicted outcomes and assumptions (word used by the authors) were not accurate to real world results.
So while hormones indicate that trans women should have an advantage, they don't perform as anticipated. Assuming someone is going to be good at a physical activity based on their physical appearance is a misnomer that also impacts cisgender athletes. Im old as shit, but Muggsy Bogues would be an armrest for me and he was an amazing ball handler. There are other factors than hormones and physique. So good news, your concerns about women getting obliterated by trans women in sports on the whole are unfounded. The original article I linked outlined several instances where trans women underperformed in comparison to women even in sports which are considered to be male dominated like weightlifting.
I think you truly believe that you are doing women a service by defending women only spaces, but I also think you are underestimating what women as a whole are capable of, and what spaces need defending. We do need men who are willing to step in and be a voice in defense of women (all women) especially in conversation with other men, but we don't need to be defended in sports from trans women. What we really need is more people in general to start raising their boys to be and do better when it comes to their treatment and perception of women. The greatest harm to women, including trans women, are the boxes we are continually expected to squeeze into by others.
I urge you to do some more research on the negative impacts of trans exclusion on both trans and cisgender kids and adults. I am happy to provide some insights based on research, but also maybe consider learning about the lived experiences of trans people in your community.
[deleted] t1_j8weubn wrote
>you needed a fertilized egg
So you are saying without cutting edge science, in the context of homo sapians the animal, we need two sexes to reproduce?
>So while hormones indicate that trans women should have an advantage, they don't perform as anticipated.
The RESEARCH ARTICLE I sent indicates the opposite. Please read it! This controls for selection bias we see in non controlled samples. It is extremely extensive.
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