PSA: Contaminated Gas in Brattleboro

Submitted by No-Establishment3083 t3_11gerb5 in vermont

I Completely filled my tank at the Gulf Gast station at 228 Canal St, Brattleboro, VT 05301 today for my Subaru. I have never had an issue with my car. Pulled off and not even 2 minutes later it starts shutting down. Had to get it towed and turns out the fuel is extremely contaminated. Got it taken care of, close to 400$ later. The Owner of the store is not taking responsibility/doesn't care. Told me it makes no sense, however the mechanic I dealt with got another call about the same issue from the same gas station after I came in. He didn't even offer a refund for the gas. It Has been reported and I was told this is not the first time this has happened at that station. Will probably not see a refund but wanted to warn whoever I could.

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Gheid t1_jaom5yx wrote

If you’re on Facebook on the Brattleboro group, others have had issues too with this same gas station. The station denies it. VT Weights and Measures says they’ve inspected the tanks and there’s nothing wrong with them. Yet, just in one thread there’s about a dozen people with dead cars that got gas there.

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jaomuzx wrote

Exactly what I was told OTP by the Agency. That they had investigated other times but with no results. The owner also sorta laughed me off with the same excuse, said that it made no sense because then everyone would be on the side of the road. Idk how it works but there is no denying that it was 100% their fuel because my car was completely empty before I filled up and now is completely fine after getting the fuel out of it. It's frustrating and ridiculous that they can continue to screw people. The State Agency did say he would have someone out there tomorrow morning carrying out inspections but I won't hold my breath.

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Clamato-n-rye t1_jappmzv wrote

Time to escalate to

  1. mayor
  2. state rep
  3. governor's office. That's who's ultimately responsible.
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ArkeryStarkery t1_jareskk wrote

Bratt doesn't have a mayor, we have a Selectboard and it's pretty toothless. I'd go state level first.

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Particular_Look1965 t1_jarjbu5 wrote

Maybe federal level too. Remember how the train going through East Palestine wasn’t labeled properly with what it actually contained. Seems like that’s what’s going on here.

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Clamato-n-rye t1_jasnayx wrote

Good to know, thanks. Probably state level regulation anyway, now that I think about it.

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BreweryIn5Years t1_jaqzjh5 wrote

If there was water in the gas there would definitely be a line of a hundred dead cars at the parking lot. Most likely after the snowstorm people got water in their tanks from snow. Do you have an older car? Throw in a bottle of dry gas from time to time after a large snowstorm or rainstorm. Mechanics will say anything to make a buck…

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jarv5ei wrote

No, the mechanic showed me the fuel and I watched them take it out and saw that it was pretty much all contaminated. They were very trustworthy and charged me appropriately. My car is a 2013 that has never had an issue and it's under 100k miles. It's been perfect other than that. I am from Florida and have been through many rainstorms, hurricanes and then the snow storms from here many times. I was also one of many incidents that has occurred at this same station throughout some months. Edit: They also did use dry gas for the last step just to get the whatever bad fuel was left over since I filled my whole tank with it. I do appreciate the tip though but I have never had this problem with my car and it's seen a lot of water.

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Fromage_Damage t1_jasdd27 wrote

I've never had water in my gas, sounds fishy as hell, I've even used old gas that had water in it, and never had a problem. There must have been a ton of water, and the pump only sucks up part of it sometimes? It sounds totally possible. Fuck that owner, he is a fucker.

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ArkeryStarkery t1_jarf55y wrote

That's what's weird about this! What could cause more than two dozen, but not all, of the station's customers to have this exact set of problems, when no other station on the same street is getting these complaints? Multiple mechanics, too, and not always after a snowstorm.

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jarwla4 wrote

Exactly. I understand the whole thing of being blown off because obviously there isn't a line of cars but something is wrong with it because I have gotten gas 100s of times and been fine. I also have pics from the mechanic showing how much of it was water so Ik it was a real issue and my car was fine all day before that, literally as soon as I turned out the gas station it started to shut down. So it was the gas, and like you pointed out this is just one of many incidents. Something is going on and they should not just be okay with it since it isn't everyone, it's still causing everyday ppl hundreds or more dollars of repairs.

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TwoNewfies t1_jaorm96 wrote

Was just coming to say this!

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TwoNewfies t1_jaos6oy wrote

And am wondering, after so so many reports with the exact same story, what's up with the VT inspectors. Does Weights and Measures analyze the gasoline? Fill their own tanks?!

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jaoxcgu wrote

I am wondering the same. How exactly is it done and why aren't they finding anything if the inspection is done within 24 hrs of the report? I am not sure as this is not a subject I know much about. I think he said something about filling the one of the state trucks or something but I could be wrong because that just seems like a bad idea.

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TwoNewfies t1_jaosef9 wrote

Just take half a cup from the very top of the tank?

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pointedflowers t1_jaqs1dz wrote

If they’re anything like the Vt health inspectors, I wouldn’t hold my breath for them to fix anything.

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TwoNewfies t1_jattn1n wrote

Health inspectors anywhere. And I was naive enough to be shocked when I found that at least a few decades ago milk inspectors don't inspect milk!

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pointedflowers t1_jatuj4p wrote

Not health inspectors anywhere. Massachusetts, NY and Pennsylvania were all way more on top of it and way more strict. Also the codes themselves were much better. No one here seems to have heard of a haccp plan ever.

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TwoNewfies t1_jatuxvs wrote

You're right, and I hope things are better than when I worked at a Todd English restaurant in Boston!

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BreweryIn5Years t1_jaqzzlr wrote

Water is heavier than gas. So there is always water in a storage tank but it’s below the fill pipe. After each delivery usually the tanks get “stuck” to check for water levels. If the water gets close to the fill pipe the computer system should automatically shut the entire station down. There’s a reason you don’t have this happen a lot and you don’t hear about it constantly on the news. Their are multiple redundancies built into the system. Ha being someone come and check for water content therefore usually never results in concrete findings. I go on these calls regularly and never find anything.

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ArkeryStarkery t1_jarfcm3 wrote

Could there be a flaw in the shutdown mechanism?

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BreweryIn5Years t1_jassdek wrote

I mean possibly. Each station has a Veeder Root system that should stop any water from entering the fill pipe to begin with. Then the fuel goes through a filter in the gas pump itself which should stop even small amounts of water (I believe). When a pump is pumping super slow it’s usually the filters need replacing. That particular station has been reported before. An inspector can only check if the issue is still happening not what happened at the exact time of filling. Maybe they called immediately afterwards and had the storage tank pumped out and all the filters replaced, but that may be asking too much of that particular company/ station. All companies pay a lot of money to have both of these things checked and maintained regularly because being out of gas for a couple hours is literally thousands of dollar in profit for them. The only other thing I’ve heard that could possibly affect this is fuel was being delivered/dropped into the fuel tanks at the same time OP was pumping fuel. If there was water it could possibly be pushed around and make its way up to the fill spot at that time. Also sometimes if it’s just rained or snowed there could be a small amount of water making its way to the gas pump nozzle? But all these are very rare and wouldn’t cause 12 vehicles to go down for water. This time of year the simple answer is usually water/condensation getting into the tank from a rain or snowstorm and I’m literally basing this of if a few cars we had in the past that for whatever reason needed some dry gas from time to time, although all the other cars in the parking lot were fine.

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pointedflowers t1_jat8ktu wrote

I’d like to know more and see if it’s different in other states. Must be able to inspect the whole system somehow.

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SemperFuu t1_jaswh8o wrote

Sounds like litigation waiting to happen, gonna drop this to a few firms

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jat6iz5 wrote

Let me know if there is any way I can get involved) get help. I am not familiar with taking legal action at all but if they keep screwing people I am all in.

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SemperFuu t1_jatvp2m wrote

This is for the lawyers. They have to look into if it’s the companies fault, testing or state. Then if damages can be proven actions can be taken. Can’t sue to sue, but with so many cars broken, this imo sounds like a great case for a junior partner to get their associates to dove into. But now we stay silent 🤫 let them do their jobs

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kosmonautinVT t1_jaohx3d wrote

Maybe you could get a statement from the mechanic, a sample of the contaminated gasoline (I think the gas will float on top of left undisturbed), and sue them in small claims court?

Edit: receipt or credit charge from the gas station would be good to have too

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jaoj3e8 wrote

Tbh suing them for 400$ is not really worth it for me because of time and energy, I work FT, travel and I am a student. It happened and sucked but I know better now. I am gathering my evidence and using it to continue my report to the State Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets and the Gulf company. I'd rather see them investigated and having some type of consequences and stop this from happening to others. If it results in some type of refund then that would be great but I don't expect it to happen anytime soon.

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kosmonautinVT t1_jaolga9 wrote

Should only take a day... Probably worth it unless you're getting paid $50+ an hour.

I can understand not wanting more hassle though, but damn I would want retribution

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Chess_Not_Checkers t1_jaqpjsf wrote

The court part might only take a day but there will be hours and hours of commitment before you ever get there.

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beatrixotter t1_japzb3t wrote

You would be suing for the cost of the auto repair, the cost of the gas, court filing fees, and any other associated costs. Seems worth the time to me. Here's some info on getting started with small claims court: https://vtlawhelp.org/roadmap/small-claims/step-1

Suing them would give them consequences and help stop it happening from others.

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jaqrycy wrote

I will definitely look into it, probably would help cover the hours of work I had to miss afterwards too since I was on break when it happened.

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BlaiddDrwg82 t1_jaozsje wrote

The Brattleboro fb group has a lot of conversation about this. You’re not alone.

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Commercial_Case_7475 t1_jaof44u wrote

Wow that is terrible. Sorry that happened to you. What was it contaminated with? Particulates? Water? Oil?

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jaofxk3 wrote

I don't know much about cars, but the Mechanic was really helpful and showed and explained it was water. From the way they were saying it, I assume it was a large amount. The shop was amazing though and completely understanding with the situation and was willing to talk to anyone to help verify the issue.

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vermont4runner t1_jaoqr0e wrote

Water in an engine can and does hydro lock it. Death sentence. You got real lucky it wasn’t a higher concentration.

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jaot5s2 wrote

I think the fact that I stopped trying to drive the car after 3 minutes saved it and me. I refused to mess with it, the way it started jerking and shaking was scary enough.

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vermont4runner t1_jap2oh1 wrote

Jerking and shaking is from misfires due to the gas not igniting. Water will just bend your connecting rods and it’s game over.

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MapleMechanic t1_jaovipz wrote

Don't think it could ever happen from water in the gas, even at 100% concentration. Hydrolock would be from either head gaskets or sucking water through the intake

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vermont4runner t1_jap2rez wrote

In the gas still shoot it into the cylinder, doesn’t matter how it gets there, water in the cylinder is what causes hydro lock.

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flambeaway t1_japz714 wrote

It'll only shoot as much as it would shoot gas. Nowhere near enough to cause hydrolock. If your injectors are dumping in that much water they'd dump in that much fuel. Fuel will hydrolock an engine just as well as water.

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Tchukachinchina t1_japalvo wrote

It takes way more water than a fuel injector will shoot into the cylinder to hydro lock an engine. What you’re thinking of happens when water gets sucked in through the air intake after driving through deep water.

In OPs case, even if it was 100% water that got injected into the engine, the car would stall immediately. No fuel = no run. Drain the tank, flush the lines, change the filters, maybe run an injector cleaner, and then the car is good as it was before the incident. Absolutely no risk of hydro lock in OPs situation.

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sad0panda t1_japdhsx wrote

Technically speaking, an engine is hydrolocked when it stops running due to water in the cylinder, even if it hasn't caused mechanical damage. What you are describing is hydrolock, it's just reversible so long as you haven't destroyed the piston.

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Tchukachinchina t1_jape4zg wrote

What happened to OP is not hydrolock. OPs car shut down to lack of fuel. They’re two very different things. Look anywhere for the definition of hydrolock and you’ll find something similar to this:

“ Hydrolock (a shorthand notation for hydrostatic lock or hydraulic lock) is an abnormal condition of any device which is designed to compress a gas by mechanically restraining it; most commonly the reciprocating internal combustion engine, the case this article refers to unless otherwise noted. Hydrolock occurs when a volume of liquid greater than the volume of the cylinder at its minimum (end of the piston's stroke) enters the cylinder. Since liquids are nearly incompressible the piston cannot complete its travel; either the engine must stop rotating or a mechanical failure must occur.“

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sad0panda t1_japeinb wrote

You are using two different phrases to describe the same thing.

If there is too much water in the fuel, that means too much liquid (water) is entering the cylinder, preventing complete combustion. Hydrolock. Can you explain the difference you are seeing between this and "lack of fuel"?

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Status_Mechanic t1_japrrp1 wrote

Hydrolock is when the engine won't turn from the liquid is the combustion chamber. You can hydrolock on pure gasoline. OP didn't hydrolock.

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foomp t1_japmcpk wrote

He's using two different phrases to describe two different things. A hydraulic lock happens when a compressive space gets filled with an incompressible substance, typically water. That is a hydrolock.

The fuel injector doesn't put enough water into the cylinder to create that situation, but it does insert enough water to interrupt proper combustion.

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Sad_Dimension_1576 t1_japu8b8 wrote

Hydro lock is when the engine try’s to compress a liquid instead of a gas/air. Liquid won’t compress as much and locks up the engine.

Water in fuel gets atomized by the injectors. This is NOT hydrolock. Not enough liquid to lock the engine but it won’t burn well or at all stalling the engine.

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akmjolnir t1_jap24u0 wrote

Hydro-locking is a result of water being sucked through the air intake, not the incredibly small amounts of atomized fuel shot into the cylinders by the fuel injectors.

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sad0panda t1_japcx5o wrote

How does water being sucked into the air intake hydrolock an engine without also bending a connecting rod or otherwise causing the engine to stop? That is the definition of hydrolock. Too much liquid in the cylinder, regardless of how it got there (air intake being the obvious/common way).

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akmjolnir t1_japgs40 wrote

Were talking about injectors spraying contaminated gasoline, not submerged intakes.

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vermont4runner t1_jap2uk9 wrote

Water in the combustion chamber leads to hydro lock. By injector does take a lot longer, but water in cylinder is hydro lock.

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akmjolnir t1_jap3koa wrote

In a running engine water is sometimes injected into the cyclinders to cool down the temps and prevent pre-detonation, especially in older turbocharged engines with high boost. Menthol was also used.

You seem to have some things confused.

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vermont4runner t1_jap4qo0 wrote

A controlled amount injected into cylinders with the engine tuned properly for it is how water and menthol injection systems work. An engine that can barely run because it’s choking on diluted with water gas is not the same thing at all. Some of that water is still collecting in the cylinder, enough and you can easily get a bent connecting rod. It doesn’t take much.

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Mysterious_Lime8663 t1_jarvajm wrote

Poor Bart. You know, we had a lot of fun tonight. But, there's nothing funny about...vapour lock. It’s the third most common cause of stalling. So please, take care of your car and get it checked. I'm Joe Namath. Good night.

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Careful_Square1742 t1_jaomfei wrote

if you paid for the gas with a credit card (not a debit card) you may have an avenue there.

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jaon51l wrote

No, used a debit card unfortunately.

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ZhugeTsuki t1_jap1cds wrote

You should still be able to dispute the charge if thats what youre after - credit vs debit doesnt make a difference

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nekoken04 t1_jap8jhp wrote

This is easily testable. There's some goo you can put on the measuring stick that you drop down in the tank to see how full it is. That goo changes color if there is something other than gas (like water) mixed in with it. I used to have to do this weekly and log it when I worked at a grocery/gas store.

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ArkeryStarkery t1_jaq85xh wrote

Then it's even more wild that this place has dozens of complaints!

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nekoken04 t1_jauzjtk wrote

In WA state it was the law in the late '80s, early '90s to do this testing regularly. Hard to believe it isn't similar in VT.

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WhatTheCluck802 t1_jaozqks wrote

I had this happen like 20 years ago from I believe it was Cumberland Farms in Barre. Totally sucks, I feel for you!!

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merryone2K t1_jaoi2fm wrote

It takes a LOT to stop a Subie; unfortunately, you discovered a sure-fire method. Sympathy for what you've had happen and thank you for the warning.

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The_survey_says t1_jaorzmz wrote

A lot? Get turbo model and look at it wrong.. there goes your head gasket

Source: I am a turbo Subaru.

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amhais t1_japm65c wrote

I’ve owned two WRXs, both spun rod bearings. There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me uhhh — you can't get fooled again.

But seriously, the turbo Subaru engines are junk. Never had an engine issue with any car before or after those 2.

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CynicallyCyn t1_jaozd1b wrote

I freaking love my turbo Subaru. It’s a beast. I only put top tier gas in it though, so maybe that’s why. Totally worth it in the long run to me.

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merryone2K t1_jaow3nx wrote

Turbos are totally different creatures than my less-than-exotic 2003 manual transmission Baja, which has been my only drive since 2006. Unlike the VWs of my youth, the Subie has never left me on the side of the road dialing AAA. THREE VWs (90s models) did.

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jaox0yt wrote

Exactly, I was really freaked because even when I have had "issues" I could still drive my car. This completely took my car down within minutes.

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whaletacochamp t1_jaosan7 wrote

Lol it does not take a lot to stop a Subaru. They’re pretty good cars alright, but Vermonters need to stop acting like they’re the best made cars.

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Kiernanstrat t1_jasp5qq wrote

The AWD system is in fact fantastic but they cut corners everywhere else to make sure that system is in every car at every price point.

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whaletacochamp t1_jasx4xq wrote

Exactly. No doubt that they will go a lot of places...as long as they are running and not falling apart.

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Sad_Dimension_1576 t1_jaoy0r2 wrote

Subaru or not water in the gas stops cars from running. Subaru doesn’t make magic engines that are somehow more resilient. Most likely in the know will tell you Subaru engines have been kinda shit for a while. I miss the 2.2.

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Lower-Blackberry-716 t1_japf8yq wrote

I always noticed they have low gas prices compared to others around here and was a little leery of it. I'm glad I haven't gotten gas there and definitely won't be getting gas there now!

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_japgjp7 wrote

That's the reason I went there ngl. Always looking to save money, I would have never thought it would result in something that serious though. Never heard of bad gas before today

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demariusk t1_japi8sl wrote

Thanks for the heads up.

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myloveisajoke t1_jarjcky wrote

Good reminder that drygas is a thing.

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Trajikbpm t1_japn379 wrote

I heard people say this about the jiffy in castleton not long ago.

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plankton-718 t1_jaqwvw1 wrote

This might sound stupid, I don't know a lot about cars....I recently brought my Subaru in for an issue. My tank was pretty low. That mechanic told me that in the winter I shouldn't let my tank get low because I'll get condensation in my tank which would contaminate the gas and hurt my car. Maybe the station's underground tanks do the same when they get to a certain level?

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jarx4ng wrote

Not sure. However, anything should be looked into atp if it's causing so many people issue but the investigations are coming up with nothing.

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VText1 t1_jat08u6 wrote

Another one today......she meant the Gulf, not the Sunoco across the street. That was clarified later in her post

https://preview.redd.it/j9dqm4olsmla1.png?width=683&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=ca823282c0eb8cf0255c66334fb07eae05c84b91

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No-Establishment3083 OP t1_jat0plp wrote

Jeez. Wth. They need to shut it down and the state agency told me yesterday that they would be checking it today at 10am-11am! I wish I had Facebook to share there but I don't, it's ridiculous though.

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Kimberly802 t1_jats26r wrote

Um. Tweet our governor? [as many times as are people who are mad] I'm not a reddit expert so I am not sure if I am supposed to mention the other site. But it appears that no one loves getting swamped with repeated comments about things on that site and something usually happens pretty fast.

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Kimberly802 t1_jatsfs4 wrote

not denigrating reddit... it just seems like their are some 'national' eyes on government officials over there... and usually, when there are enough comments, stuff gets traction at a fast clip. Which is no bueno for said officials.

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skiitifyoucan t1_jaoyftd wrote

not saying you did anything wrong, but Just buying Top tier will probably avoid problems like this.

https://www.autolist.com/guides/top-tier-gas

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phoebe7439 t1_jap069y wrote

Won't matter if there's water in it

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flambeaway t1_jaqmgqt wrote

Actually it's likely the the additives would help prevent phase separation and keep water in solution where it will run through the engine pretty harmlessly.

I just buy whatever gas the station sells at the correct octane rating for my vehicle (good ol' 87), but the additives in the goofy branded gas would probably have helped in this case.

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