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hideous-boy t1_iu411qy wrote

this dude has an Azov patch. Think we can try supporting Ukraine in this sub without boosting neo-Nazis maybe?

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kievit4ukraine OP t1_iu43alk wrote

The idea that Azov is a neo-nazi group is a widely popular belief spread by Russian propaganda in order to justify war crimes in Ukraine. Don’t fall victim to it, be better.

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ScotsDale213 t1_iu5tdxg wrote

As far as I know, azov is, complicated nowadays. Part of the national military they may be they have had allegations of ties to far right groups, and allegations of torture. Both with enough evidence to make it hard to determine either way. With others arguing they’ve been tampered and disciplined now as part of the military. Personally I don’t like them much, but they fight for Ukraine so I’m ambivalent, I’m just worried what may happen if Ukraine wins and Azov remains, lionized by the war. Personally I hope if Ukraine wins they just get quietly retired as hero’s, instead of remaining

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meinblown t1_iu456jl wrote

Just because they are Neo-nazis doesn't mean they can't hate ruzzians. Not everything is black and white. I can hate both of them at the same time. Be better.

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kievit4ukraine OP t1_iu47tnb wrote

No, you don’t understand. Azov aren’t neo-nazis. And Ukrainian problem with neo-nazis is way smaller than in US or Germany

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meinblown t1_iu48j1i wrote

They may not be neo-nazis publicly, but their ranks are literally filled with them.

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kievit4ukraine OP t1_iu498k2 wrote

You served in Azov? No. So you have no way of knowing. That’s Russian propaganda you’re spreading. Does it pay well?

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TheFancyFlannel t1_iu4c7zy wrote

Don't worry about these idiots. The sad part is, they do it for free.

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meinblown t1_iu4jjgc wrote

It's not just ruzzian propaganda. The azov reserve unit has been well known to be populated by neo-nazi members. They were labeled a terrorist organization long before Russia invaded Ukraine, even before ruzzia's 2014 invasion of Crimea.

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kievit4ukraine OP t1_iu4k9o7 wrote

It “has been known” thanks to Russian propaganda

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KITTYONFYRE t1_iu4aekf wrote

by that argument you don't serve in azov either so how can YOU say one way or the other? I mean, my gut feeling is to agree with you, I'm not actually throwing my hat in this ring, I am completely ignorant on this subject and know absolutely nothing about these groups. just pointing out that your argument sucks and is logically inconsistent. there are plenty of high quality arguments you could make instead.

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meinblown t1_iu4jn1z wrote

He is a bootlicker, leave him alone.

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KITTYONFYRE t1_iu54jiv wrote

well actually my gut says you're a moron and I agree with him but that's because I am simply liberal and that is the liberal viewpoint, not because they have a compelling argument. "you're not in azov lol u can't have an opinion" is dumb as fuck, because they also did not serve in azov. there are plenty of high quality arguments they could have made, choosing a shitty one just to try to "win" the argument is dumb. people will just completely ignore a fundamentally dogshit piece of logic if they agree with the conclusion, which is stupid as hell.

analogy I pulled out of my ass: if someone says "ham sandwhiches are great because they are blue" I will say "that's a dumbass argument for calling ham sandwhiches great, even if the conclusion that ham sandwhiches are great is true". then ham sandwhich lovers will hate me. I'm not making a comment on the greatness of ham sandwhiches here, I'm making a comment on the logic used to reach that conclusion, which is faulty in the above comment.

u/kievit4ukraine I hope this comment clears up that I am not disagreeing with you nor am I agreeing with this chode lol, but just that I want higher quality discourse, so that people like meinblown has less of a handhold to grab onto.

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kievit4ukraine OP t1_iu59ae5 wrote

It’s funny how people would expect me to fly across the Atlantic 2 times a week for 6 month, loading and unloading thousands of pounds of cargo every time, fundraising millions of dollars and dealing with all sorts of bureaucratic obstacles, while participating in all kinds of debates regarding Azov carefully crafting arguments in the language I’ve never even learned.

I just wanted to share a nice moment with you guys. I do regret my decision. Have a great day.

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Distinguished_Parrot t1_iu4ylev wrote

> but their ranks are literally filled with them.

So are the III percenters, Proud Boys, NSC-131, Cliven Bundy's militia, and the January 6th seditionists. What's your point?

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meinblown t1_iu56bhl wrote

My point is, fuck neo-nazis. Is that hard for you to grasp?

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[deleted] t1_iu46rpt wrote

Asking in good faith here: according to this article that patch is the new one. They dropped the old Nazi-like symbol. Does that make a difference?

Apparently, as of 2016, a Ukrainian Jewish organization was supportive of the Azov unit. More generally, is it naive or incorrect to think that the unit has been de-politicized since being brought into the Ukrainian National Guard?

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hideous-boy t1_iu489fd wrote

  1. It's just optics. Replacing a symbol that made them look bad doesn't change what the regiment stands for. The wolfsangel will still hold the meaning it does to them and will probably still appear all over the place.

  2. That organization's justification isn't that Azov isn't filled with Nazis, it's that Russian aggression matters more and that they aren't officially a neo-Nazi militia. To the first point I would argue that Russia can be successfully fought without empowering far-right bodies. To the second, who cares if it's official or not? Azov still has the exact same people in it and attracts the same kind of person. It's like arguing that because the Greek police are an arm of a democratic government that they can't have deep ties and allegiances to the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party.

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Human802 t1_iu4as3d wrote

“Russia can be fought with out empowering far right” a statement like this indicates you don’t know what happened when Russia first invaded in 2014, and far right militia were the only forces ready to fight them. Azov was one of these, and it was then integrated into the rebuilt national military. Also should be noted that connections between the far right and the military is true in most countries, certainly true for the US.

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wiryeasternpromise t1_iu4593m wrote

Which one is the Azov patch? Because I don't see it...

Edit: nvm found it. Looks like a new insignia rather than a wolfsangel. Call it positive progress on the symbolism front?

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