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Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_istpcu2 wrote

Reply to comment by df33702021 in Is wood cheaper than oil? by wholeWheatButterfly

This can't be real. Are you paying 600 a cord or something? Something is very off here and if you really think loading the stove is the labor intensive part I have to wonder whats really going on.

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df33702021 t1_isu2d91 wrote

I don't buy wood. I cut my own. I can cut, block, split, and stack a years worth of wood in 3-4 days. Loading the wood stove means getting wood from the wood pile and putting the wood in the stove multiple times a day for months. Even if you only spend 15 minutes/day doing this, that's 7.5 hrs/month just loading the wood stove. If you run your wood stove 6 months/yr, that's 5.6 eight hour days spent just to load the stove. But as said, I can cut a years worth of wood in 3-4 days. Loading the stove is more time spent than the entire process of obtaining the wood.

Last year i paid $1849 for propane with the most recent price of $2.45/g for propane. I use propane for grill, stove, clothes dryer, radiant heat, and domestic hot water. If I were to burn wood exclusively and buy it, it would be 5-6 cords/yr which would be $1400-1800 or more depending on price/cord just for heat. For me, propane currently is cheaper than buying firewood. When propane gets in the $4/g area, the tables start to turn. But even then it's iffy since firewood sellers know when the price of propane, oil, or whatever alternative goes up.

As I said, I cut my own firewood. Any type of equipment breakage will destroy any savings you think you're getting by cutting your own wood. One year I was skidding out a beech and I broke one of the 3 point hitch casing mounts off the tractor. That was a $3000 fix. So much for cheap firewood.

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Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_isu9sbv wrote

So cheaper only to you as you seem to way overvalue your time spent loading the stove. That's gotta be one of the funnier things I have read here. But either way no matter what reasoning you come up with wood is and always will be cheaper. Just wait till you see the propane price now lol. But hey enjoy the propane and the never having to load the stove again.

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df33702021 t1_isugww8 wrote

As I said wood is not cheaper for me at this time. I gave you the math. Sorry if that blows your mind, but the math doesn't lie. I cut my wood in at the most 4 days time. I thought 15min/day was probably accurate. When burning, I fill my primary stove (sometimes both) maybe 4-5 times/day so ~3.5 minutes per load. We keep a stack of wood right outside the door, but that needs to be replenished every couple days. 15 min/day is probably right in terms of wood handling. At 15 min/day it takes upwards of 6 eight hour days/yr to fill the stove. That's a total of 10 days/yr screwing with wood. It's a super time intensive task. Last I looked, propane was $3.51. However, it's likely that I can get a better price than that since I own my tank and can shop around. As I said, propane has got to be in the $4 area to even begin to start thinking about wood, even buying it split and delivered. Even at $4. it's iffy.

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Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_isulknj wrote

Wrong. And you never actually gave any math that shows what you said none at all because the value of your time is not listed. Without that number you cant do the "math" so the math doesn't lie is a lie it says nothing. It's still cheaper you again are just inflating the value (you don't specify) of your time. As you said you do all your own collecting and cutting so it's basically cost free but for your time. And seriously who counts how much time you spend putting logs in the stove. That's a good one:)

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df33702021 t1_isus261 wrote

Oh that's laughable. Why don't you pick a number? I actually value my time higher as does my employer, but go ahead use $20/hr. So 10 days* 8hrs/day*$20/hr=$1600. Still cheaper with propane. Why would collecting and cutting be cost free but for my time? Is the tractor, winch, splitter, chainsaws, chainsaw chains, gas, oil, bar and chain oil, pulp hooks, the land, etc cost free? That's more expense than my time would be even if I amortize it out. If I include all that then obviously propane is cheaper than wood by an order of magnitude. Yet you want to hand wave that away.

I gave you an example of how cutting wood resulted in breaking the tractor and causing a $3000 repair. You ignore it. That adds to the expense.

Let me guess, you've never cut wood.

Additionally putting wood in the stove is an activity specific to wood. You don't do anything of the sort with propane. Why would you not include it when comparing the two.

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Hantelope3434 t1_isuff6y wrote

How much are your charging yourself per hour to make those 5.6 days of 8 hours not cost efficient? Even at $20/hr wood is significantly less expensive. I think it is fine if you do not like the labor of wood, but to claim it is cheaper than propane is laughable. Even in your description the numbers do not work.

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df33702021 t1_isuj6gc wrote

The numbers work. My total propane expense is for heat, domestic hot water, grill, stove, and a clothes dryer. Maybe you missed that.

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Hantelope3434 t1_isukgcq wrote

I am referring to you splitting wood yourself versus having cords delivered. You are correct that depending on your heating systems, delivered wood could be more expensive overall than propane in your situation.

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df33702021 t1_isuoba9 wrote

I cut, block, split, and stack my own wood. It takes me upwards of 4 days to do this part. Then it takes those 5.6 days to fill the wood stove. I never really assigned a dollar value to my time, but you're talking upwards of 10 days/yr dealing with wood. If I used what I get for pay for my job, that would be the priciest wood ever. If you want to use $20/hr then 10 days*8 hr days*$20/hr= $1600. At some point, you have to ask yourself is it worth it. Of course, that doesn't include fuel, equipment, etc. Or any injuries you sustain. That's a whole different angle.

I put in a gas-condensing 95% AFUE boiler with low mass radiant and it's just so efficient that it turned the whole wood scenario on it's head. The pivot point is when propane gets over $4/g, but I probably would still use it up to $5/g.

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Hantelope3434 t1_isurxn5 wrote

I completely understand the labor aspect not being for everyone, and there is nothing wrong with that. If for you your time is more valuable than low cost heating, that is fine. I am saying to assign the word "cheaper" in this subject means that it requires less cash. Cutting my own wood from my property with a gas chainsaw and a little riding lawn mower with a trailer costs me no cash other than the gas for chainsaw and lawn mower. It is exercise for me and a stress reducer so it arguably is saving my money from finding a new exercise routine. For many people that chop wood this is why we consider it cheaper and it uses less cash. Does it take more of your time than propane? Absolutely.

I am not sure I understand why filling the wood stove takes so long in your case, but with mine I fill it twice per day. My parents have an outdoor wood boiler that heats everything for the house and is very efficient and loading it doesn't really seem to be a problem for them at age 70.

To each their own on what they heat with. Everyone's situation can make things different. But cutting your own wood has the capability of being the cheapest way of heating out of any other resource.

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df33702021 t1_isuvs53 wrote

Fair enough. I value my time.

I would fill it 4 times/day. I also have two wood stoves, one of which I only use if it's real cold. 15m/day works out to be ~3.5m per fill. Even if you spend 10m/day it adds up to 5hrs/mo. Most people wouldn't even include this time, but they should if they are comparing wood to propane, oil, etc.

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Outrageous-Outside61 t1_isv8qfb wrote

Are you taking days off of work to heat with wood? Would your time be compensated if you weren’t using it to do firewood? You can’t put a cash value in your time if it’s not inhibiting your ability to earn other income. Also factoring in operator error to this cost analysis is dumb. You broke your tractor, skidding a log didn’t break it. I’ve done a myriad of dumb shit to my equipment, but it’s 99.9% of the time an operator error.

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df33702021 t1_isv9pvv wrote

I don’t recall you being there when it broke. I’ve taken time off for wood before. Good grief what’s everyone’s problem.

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sugarbush94 t1_isvqk9z wrote

What's the problem? I think it's like you said earlier, they probably haven't ever cut their own wood and they are just trying to find cracks in your logic because it doesn't fit their beliefs.

I do it all myself, like you. I enjoy the process and take value from it, like a rewarding hobby. But yes, the equipment costs are real and need to be included. I think they're often underestimated. I buy two saw chains each year, a bar every couple, and a new saw about every ten. E0 saw fuel, 2 stroke oil, bar and chain oil add up. Splitter fuel, hydraulic oil, etc. It all adds up.

And yes, things do wear out and break even when the operator does everything right. The person who only breaks stuff when they do something wrong is probably doing lots of stuff wrongly.

But if the OP was simply asking about the cost/btu of cordwood vs propane, I think buying wood is cheaper.

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Outrageous-Outside61 t1_isvslwz wrote

Dude breaking your three point hitch skidding a log is an operator error. I’ve been there, it’s not a judgement on you. My other points still stand though, I do about 20 cord a year for my house, shop, farmstand and mothers, I wouldn’t never account for my time as it’s not like you’re taking time off of work to put up wood. If you do you’d have to value that time, but with the amount you’re talking about (3 days I think you said?) I don’t understand how you’re putting that into the metric. And idk, if everybody has a problem maybe it’s not them it’s you? I really wasn’t trying to “have a problem” at all, just pointing out where I thought your cost analysis was flawed.

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df33702021 t1_isxfn95 wrote

It was just a fluke. You need to include your equipment repairs into your cost regardless of how they happened. Otherwise you are not being honest with what wood is costing you. If you were selling firewood, you most certainly would include it as a means to lower your tax burden. It's not dumb at all. In fact, it would be dumb not to.

Also, you can value your time as you see fit. You can measure that however you wish: money, time away from kids, time not fishing, etc. It's your time spent. Wood is time intensive. That's the tradeoff. If you don't value your time dealing with wood, it will always be cheaper in your own mind. Put a value on it plus include costs like equipment repair and maintenance to obtain the wood and you're into the more expensive or break even area compared to using other energy sources. In my case as propane prices keep rising, that becomes less true. But it's not there yet.

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Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_isunkds wrote

Yes but he repeats that he gets all the wood for free and does the cutting etc himself. Oh well the days of sub 3 dollar propane are long gone anyways. He's not gonna like these numbers.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_a_EPLLPA_PRS_dpgal_w.htm

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df33702021 t1_isuw8vh wrote

It's actually the $4 area, not $3.

Did you not read anything I wrote?

Add to that, you seem to take joy in me having to pay more for propane. What's wrong with you?

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