You must log in or register to comment.

roadtrip-ne t1_iv1qng6 wrote

There’s only one thing we can do. Cancel winter.


T3Tron t1_iv2xprm wrote

Yea! It said some racist shit about Spring in ‘17 and it got swept under the rug.


Twombls t1_iv1mren wrote

Good thing vermonts energy comes from canada! This is really just bs that energy companies are trying to use to jack up energy prices since they see it happening in europe.


Aperron t1_iv1t1rl wrote

That map shows generation sources within the state, but Vermont produces a very small percentage of the power consumed here so it’s extremely misleading.

All electricity consumed in Vermont is pulled from the common pool that is the broader ISO New England grid. Similarly all electricity produced here, or brought in on interconnections with Canada is injected into that same regional grid. It’s one large pool of energy that is traded on a commodity market where real time prices paid by VT utilities for what they pull off the system for their customers are determined by supply and demand on that broader grid and trading market.

The finances of utilities like GMP and VELCO are absolutely affected by fluctuations and shortages in natural gas because natural gas makes up about 50% of the baseload for ISO NE. They can buffer for very short term events without having to pass the costs on in terms of rate increases, but anything substantial will require emergency rate adjustments that would almost certainly be approved by the VT utility regulators.


Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_iv1y3b8 wrote

> The finances of utilities like GMP and VELCO are absolutely affected by fluctuations and shortages in natural gas because natural gas makes up about 50% of the baseload for ISO NE

Not quite correct. The reason our rates have not gone up like the other NE states NH and MA have doubled is the fact the we don't use nat gas. GMP has long term contracts with Hydro Quebec, Seabrook NPP to name just a few. Those prices are stable and have no bearing on ISO NE but for the rare times they have to purchase extra power during very high use times. GMP has done great work in eliminating the need to do that with their use of Powerwalls and other grid tied battery systems. Yes the power commingles on the lines once generated but GMP pays the same to the producer not ISO NE. That's why it matters not how much nat gas is in the ISO NE mix as we don't contract with nat gas power plants.


Twombls t1_iv2qupk wrote

Very thankful VT has stable contracts with hydro quebec.

Also very thankful VT doesn't have a deregulated market like mass. Those people are screwed this winter.


wittgensteins-boat t1_iva44mj wrote

Municipalities can own distribution in Massachusetts.

Forty-one municipal electric companies serve 50 municipalities.

Via Mass. Municipal Wholesale Electric company, these municipalities have long term contracts and partial ownership of base load nuclear plants, and conventional fossil fuel plants. Their rates will be steadier and have smaller rise than in commercial electric company territories in Massachusetts.

Massachusetts municipally-owned electric companies.

Mass. Municipal Wholesale Electric Company.


Twombls t1_ivapoy0 wrote

They can but not all municipalities do. If you live outdide of a municipal electric company you are kind of screwed.

But still having a monopolistic energy company like vermont does help a lot during times of energy shortage because they are better able to negotiate prices. Even though during surplus times you may pay more.


wittgensteins-boat t1_ive57s4 wrote

Also in the vicinity of 200 non-municipal electric providing locales of the 351 total Massachusetts municipalities have engaged in aggregation contracts making for longer-term term price stability of more than a year, depending on when the contract was negotiated and whom is the provider, for consumer choice on power providers.

Municipal Aggregation.

Separately state-wide there is choice on power process, in towns without municipal electric companies. Service rates apply for transport distribution of power.


Swede577 t1_iv4rndi wrote

The price increases are pretty crazy in Massachusetts. National grids rate is now an insane .48 kwh. They just took over Hawaii as the most expensive electricity in the US. Most of Hawaii's baseload power plants are oil.


Twombls t1_iv5uohz wrote

Thats because you guys have an unregulated market where your providers are trading electricity like stocks.


wittgensteins-boat t1_iva7g6q wrote

The Massachusetts Dept of Public Utilities regulates according to various statutes.

Electric providers can have long term contracts with fuel providers,
and with consuming electric distribution companies that can slow rate changes.

There are also Municipal electric companies with a different statutory regime.


Twombls t1_ivaov4l wrote

"Deregulation" or "consumer choice" is just the industry name for their style of consumer energy market


wittgensteins-boat t1_ive5r51 wrote

Municipalities can own distribution in Massachusetts.

Fortty-one municipal electric companies serve 50 municipalities, out of 351 municipalities in Massachusetts.

Via Mass. Municipal Wholesale Electric company, these municipalities have long term contracts and partial ownership of base load nuclear plants, and conventional fossil fuel plants, peaking plants and Solar production sites and a Hydro Quebec sourcing agreement on power lines MMEC has transport rights for. The MMWEC rates will be steadier and have smaller rise than in commercial electric company territories in Massachusetts. Some Vermont utilities are partners with MMWEC projects.

Massachusetts municipally-owned electric companies.

Mass. Municipal Wholesale Electric Company.

Hydro Quebec agreement.

Also in the vicinity of 200 of 351 municipalities have engaged in contracts making for longer-term term price stability of more than a year, depending on when the contract was negotiated and whom is the provider, for consumer choice on power providers.

Municipal Aggregation.

Separately state-wide there is choice and term of time for power process, in towns without municipal electric companies. This also can give price stability to consumers for a contracted period. Separate Service rates eapply for transport of power.

Then outside of these programs, the default utility has rate setting review via the Mass. Dept. Of Public Utilities.


mycophdstudent OP t1_iv36pbk wrote

Washington Electric Coop sources 15.67% of its electricity from the New York Power Authority ( ) which generates roughly 21% from natural gas/79% from hydro according to this Wikipedia page:


WikiSummarizerBot t1_iv36r2t wrote

New York Power Authority

>The New York Power Authority (NYPA), officially the Power Authority of the State of New York, is a New York State public-benefit corporation. It is the largest state public power utility in the United States. NYPA provides some of the lowest-cost electricity in the nation, operating 16 generating facilities and more than 1,400 circuit-miles of transmission lines. Its main administrative offices are in White Plains.

^([ )^(F.A.Q)^( | )^(Opt Out)^( | )^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)^( | )^(GitHub)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


Sdwingnut t1_iv1th1m wrote

The "renewable" terminology strikes me as misleading to some extent All energy sources are renewable, including oil and natural gas. Just not necessarily on a time scale that makes them available to us anytime soon


CathyVT t1_iv1tx44 wrote

OK, fine: "non-petroleum sources"


Sdwingnut t1_iv1ucw6 wrote

Not trying to be pedantic, but it makes the point that petroleum/gas/coal companies could label their products as "renewable" and not be incorrect


Human802 t1_iv24kd8 wrote

That’s a poor understanding of geology you are displaying.


Sdwingnut t1_iv254hm wrote

How so? Shale and oil fields will certainly reform over hundreds of thousands to millions of years from currently living organic matter if left to decompose undisturbed.

Edit: I'm fine with the downvotes , particularly if they are accompanied by scientific references to prove me wrong. I'll be happy to admit it if I can learn more about fundamental differences in geology now compared to millions of years ago.


Shep_Book t1_iv2ltan wrote

Something to consider is that we have a lot more organisms that can break down organic matter before it has time to be turned into oil. One theory is that oil and gas would have a hard time regenerating while there are organisms that can break down and convert the matter, putting it back in the carbon cycle.

It’s why, while I love trees and I think they are great, eventually they die and decompose, releasing all the stored carbon back into the atmosphere.


Electrical-Bed8577 t1_iv3juop wrote

Unless they burn first. Then it isn't condensed compost and eventually oil, long after we're gone. It's carbon in the atmosphere. Carbon in the atmosphere does not turn into an oil resource bubbling up from Jed's place. It just gets super warm and really hard for us to breathe. Then, after we decompose for millennia, there may be some oil bubbling up.


Sdwingnut t1_iv2r1vv wrote

It's not a bad hypothesis, but methane (the simplest of all hydrocarbons at CH4 and the major component of natural gas) results from many different biochemical metabolic pathways. If anything, more organisms results in faster breakdown of complex organic matter into simpler molecules. But I don't know if there truly are more organisms now than a million or even a hundred million years ago. The Cambrian Explosion was more than half a billion years ago.


wittgensteins-boat t1_iva80uw wrote

Renewable is understood to be in a term of months to years, not eons.

The sun is renewable under your metaphysics, by future stars consuming its matter.


mycophdstudent OP t1_ivabd8h wrote

Plastic can be turned into diesel. Your comment being downvoted is why I sort comments by most downvotes to find reason.


CHECK_FLOKI t1_iv5ijrv wrote

Connecticut and Massachusetts are really screwed. Don't forget New York as well.

Vermont and Maine will be fine. In hindsight, the deal with Quebec is looking like a life saver.


wittgensteins-boat t1_iv9x26l wrote

Various Maine groups campaigned in a 2021 referendum law against allowing a power line from Hydro Quebec to go through Maine to Massachusetts.

Halting the in-process building of the line.

Parts of the law were overturned in 2022, allowing re-start of building the power line.

Maine court revives Mass.-financed hydroelectric power line:
Overturns key sections of voter-approved law that usurped project’s ‘vested’ rights.
Aug 30, 2022.
Commonwealth Magazine.


CowHuman7223 t1_iv2oosn wrote

Our electricity comes from hydro Quebec. Our natural gas does not...


Twombls t1_iv2ovxv wrote

Natural gas still comes from CA as far as im aware.


Legitimate_Proof t1_iv3h18r wrote

About 1/3 of our electricity comes from Hydro Quebec. The connection is only about 250 MW while our peak demand is closer to 1,000 MW.

Our natural gas does come from Canada. That's why it's only in the NW corner of the state and recently expanded south instead of only in the SE corner and expanding north.

For any electricity not provided by long term contracts or local renewables, it would be come from the New England grid, which is mostly gas power plants connected to the US gas grid, so that's how we could be affected by the gas market. But our utilities buy little market power so the effect is muted.


whaletacochamp t1_iv1kbvc wrote

Is this kinda like the fake news about Diesel running out? Some fuckery is afoot trying to raise petroleum prices higher or validate current prices based on rumors and fear mongering about supply.


Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_iv21usd wrote

I see your getting the upvotes but for what? This is a REAL not fake issue that has been covered by all sides of the media. We are at our lowest levels since 2008 with the highest level of demand since 07 that's a plain fact and comes right from the EIA. While it may be true that we wont run out shortages and availability issues are already happening especially in NE. Not sure how you can come here and say this is all rumors and bullshit these numbers are widely known and published. Our refining capacity is so low right now that if there was a major incident fire quake who knows what we then would have to rely on that 25 days of supply which is most likely smaller than it was a few days ago.


whaletacochamp t1_iv23ccw wrote

I literally asked a question. It is a fact that diesel is NOT running out, and that rumor mongers are spreading that rumor for their benefit. I don't use natural gas and do not keep up with the data behind it, so my post was a genuine question. But hey, thanks for assuming and claiming I'm doing something that I'm not.

Anyway, if we are not in danger of running out like you indicate then one of the links you shared and the link here are pretty clearly making a bit bigger of a deal out of it then seems to be necessary. They could just as easily share these facts without being all NEW ENGLAND WILL RUN OUT OF NG IN DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!

Just read the comments here and you will see that there is much more to this story than "new england doesnt have enough NG" - and its dubious whether this quoted shortage would actually affect us or not since most of our grid is not NG dependent.


Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_iv24lp8 wrote


Umm talk about fear mongering the article said no such thing AT ALL! How did you come up with we are running out in days from an article that clearly says we MIGHT not make it through the WINTER unless steps are taken quickly. There is a fucking war going on and we are sending almost all avail gas to Europe and then add in the jones act and yes shit is pretty dire right now. Again these are facts not conjecture.


whaletacochamp t1_iv29lkk wrote

BRUH, read this title in this link that YOU shared. IDK why the actual article title is now different.

I'm also just realizing most of what you shared is about Diesel which is NOT the same as NG. Diesel is more or less the same as heating oil. The shortage of Diesel is ENTIRELY fabricated. It doesn't work that way. Diesel and other petroleum products are more or less distilled from crude oil. So while there can be staffing/supply chain issues that affect our ability to distill diesel, it's not like diesel is disappearing from the planet. Natural gas is a bit different because of how it is acquired, and could have more supply issues because of that, but it is well documented that the fear mongering around diesel is just that - fear mongering.


Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_iv2d3tx wrote

> The shortage of Diesel is ENTIRELY fabricated

Ok you are right there is plenty to be had no worries. Reserves are fully stocked and more refineries are coming online now. Yay glad you cleared that up for me. Now maybe if you can talk with the EIA, Mansfield Oil and the others and tell them they are wrong and to stop spreading misinformation that would be great! I mean what the fuck does the federal Energy Information Agency do anyways? Bunch fools and liars right? Supply and demand be damned!! And wait a min here are you doubting a federal agency?? That's dangerous to our democracy!

Edit: You should give these guys a call as well I am sure they would be happy to hear the news.


whaletacochamp t1_iv2fw8m wrote

Oh and here's one from Mansfield Energy directly where they are not shouting from the rooftops about how we will be out of Diesel imminently:

But do please tell me more about this impending diesel outage. But before we do let me once again remind you that natural gas and diesel are two very different things.


Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_iv2hudr wrote

Da fuck you smoking? The Mansfield paper you linked says "That’s not to say there won’t occasionally be situations where there is a true physical lack of products. Some cities might run dry on diesel for a few days, at least at the terminal level" and some other shit but whatever. Did you even read it? And media matters seriously?


whaletacochamp t1_iv2lib0 wrote

And you shared a link from fox business of all places lol. I’ll take what media matters has to say over what tucker Carlson has to say


whaletacochamp t1_iv2il2l wrote

Ok and where does it say “the US has a definite nationwide shortage that will result in the whole country not having diesel” like everyone is claiming? They are explaining that while yes there may be some shortages any true run outs will be isolated and short lived. The entire paragraph before your cherry picked quote more or less says that on the micro level all we will see is price increases. That’s because the supply isn’t nearly as dire as even they are making it sound.

BUT, we still have not clarified whether you are here to discuss natural gas or diesel. Two very different stories.


whaletacochamp t1_iv2f4ns wrote

Dude you need to decide if you are talking about natural gas or diesel before you have any right to even thinking what you are saying here has a leg to stand on.


VWSpeedRacer t1_ivid6pq wrote

We produce while we consume and we haven't stopped producing. 25 days is basically the margin lr runway - it doesn't mean supply runs out in 25 days. It's just that a bunch of idiots learning this small fact for the first time recently without having any understanding of the big picture and now they're freaking out over nothing.


Sudden_Dragonfly2638 t1_iv3q591 wrote

If only we hadn't shut down that really stable base load power plant that we used to have...


mycophdstudent OP t1_iv3qsn5 wrote

They should build it on the NH side to better protect it from Vermont's anti-nuclear energy pressure goups.


Dire88 t1_iv4igxf wrote

Overall I like living in VT, but it's not just "anti-nuclear". Vermonters will cut off their nose to spite their face for anything that isn't asthetic.

That mindset has a place - billboards are gawdy and trashy - but it's expanded to a bunch of green energy initiatives. Just look at the windmill project that was denied in Windham/Grafton a few years ago - it would have been a huge benefit to the local communities but voters decided ruining their view wasn't worth it.


mycophdstudent OP t1_iv56odj wrote

Its It's like the people who complain about spotty cell service then vote against erecting a hilltop cell tower or complain about the lack of housing then vote in support of regulations which discourage housing development.


[deleted] t1_iv5iu26 wrote



Dire88 t1_iv5lew3 wrote

Oh you're an out of stater?

Your money is welcome in this conversation, not your opinion.

/s but yeah. I've never loved and hated living somewhere so much.


Twombls t1_iv5vbqd wrote

No one wanted to build another one though. The energy from ca is way way cheaper.


murrly t1_iv4dd03 wrote

imagine if we had instead built a larger, newer stable base load power plant next to it, and then shut down the old one like responsible adults.

But no... we voted in Shumlin and let a child run things.


Loudergood t1_iv5qbw8 wrote

Who would run it? The same company that was so good at maintenance they let a cooling tower collapse?


murrly t1_iv5wc6v wrote

I'm a firm believer the US government should be running nuclear power plants, not private companies.


Twombls t1_iv5xwus wrote

That will happen when pigs grow wings.


VWSpeedRacer t1_ivicv2c wrote

... and they will, thanks to leakage from a privately run plant...


Twombls t1_iv5v6w2 wrote

Wouldn't be profitable to build. Hydro quebec undercut them with cheap hydro power from those massive dams that were built.


Twombls t1_iv5uzbo wrote

That power plant would have cost nore money to keep modern. Than to just build a second power plant. However a new nuclear power plant wouldn't be profitable because hydro quebec undercut them.


Distinguished_Parrot t1_iv1kex6 wrote

Does this affect us?

Eversource serves NH, MA, and CT, and their warning is that there may not be enough natural gas to provide for their electric grids, not that there will necessarily be a shortage of gas to heat homes.

I don't know that our natural gas comes from the same source (we get ours from Canada) as Eversource, nor is it apparent that our VELCO electric grid is as dependent on natural gas as it is Hydro QC, unlike Eversource that leans on NG for over 1/3 their needs.


Aperron t1_iv1p5c9 wrote

Vermont doesn’t have a separate source of electricity from the rest of the providers in New England, it’s one common grid.

At the state level we like to pretend that it’s separate and that all of our energy needs are met from specific sources, and while that’s true in a way because a certain number of MwH are being brought into the grid from sources we would prefer in an amount equivalent to what Vermont is consuming, it’s still one large NE grid predominantly supplied by natural gas power plants where the market price is controlled by fluctuations in natural gas pricing. is where you can watch the generation sources and wholesale pricing in real-time. At the time I’m posting this comment, 50% of grid load is being supplied by natural gas plants. A reduction in gas availability will cause an absolutely enormous increase in the price GMP and VELCO are paying for each megawatt hour they’re pulling from the pool.


merikus t1_iv1ycfy wrote

What an interesting dashboard. Thanks for sharing.


Twombls t1_iv2p9up wrote

All energy markets are pretend but thankfully we "buy" most of out power from hydro quebec. The energy may be generated by natural gas. But thankfully we are "purchasing" it from hydro quebec and their prices are pretty stable.

Energy markets are really just stock market nonsense that was invented in the 90s lol.

Im just glad we dont have a deregulated market like Massachusetts because holy fuck people are gonna get screwed over this winter.


sorrycharlie88 t1_iv57kl5 wrote

>may not be enough natural gas to provide for their electric grids, not that there will necessarily be a shortage of gas to heat homes

Heaters and heating systems tend to run on electricity....


Twombls t1_iv5xoz5 wrote

In vt 95% of people do not have electric heating. Most people use gas or fuel oil.


sorrycharlie88 t1_iv6ah9h wrote

Was quoting/replying to the guy above about NH, MA, and CT.

Also, lots of people in vt do indeed use wood but 95% is way way too high. Not to mention that there was a push towards exterior wood furnaces that require electricity and heat through water pipes running to the home, and a big push towards pellet stoves as well. And people who burn with wood stoves who also rely on oil or gas heat might not stack enough wood for winter to rely solely on wood so if something did happen they could burn through their supply too fast.


Twombls t1_iv6ap56 wrote

75% of Massachusetts households are heated with either fuel oil or gas

I was exagerating with vermont, but only 5.93 % of households in vt are heated with electricity.

If you mean "use electricity" as in what powers the control units and fans. Then yes they use electricity. But the power draw on my natural gas furnace is less than my pc lmao.


sorrycharlie88 t1_iv6cubt wrote

Do you understand that your furnace's power draw is irrelevant if there is no power?


Twombls t1_iv6d4q6 wrote

There will be power. It will just be expensive


sorrycharlie88 t1_iv6eoy7 wrote

He said in a discussion on the article about potential rolling blackouts....


Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_iv1znwj wrote

Look up the freaking jones act to find out why it's hard to provide nat gas to NE. This article is a few years old but nothing has changed. Congress if they really gave a shit could fix this tomorrow.


fiddlersgreen2021 t1_iv2cqd3 wrote

And secondly, Congress could fix this shit tomorrow by subsidizing the US merchant fleet like other major powers do with theirs. If they brought the cost online with building an LNG ship in Asia we could build several for Jones act work.

At the end of the day most developed countries have cabotage laws as a manner of national defense. If another country can control your coast wise trade via owning most of the shipping than you lack a key piece of national sovereignty.


Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_iv2eork wrote

True thanks for the extra info hadn't really thought of that option. It would take some time though for construction of the ships. But ya there are lots of things than can be done we just need the will to do so. Side note had no clue what cabotage laws were:) Sounds like sabotaging a cabbage grow op.


fiddlersgreen2021 t1_iv2ghou wrote

In the short term I’d be ok with a Jones act waiver if it came with legislation for funding to build some of our own Jones act ships. We built them once, unfortunately a lot of our ship building capacity is gone, or focuses almost exclusively on pork belly navy ship building.


Real-Pierre-Delecto2 t1_iv2kh2q wrote

"came with legislation for funding to build some of our own Jones act ships."

Great solution with a long term goal but wasn't there bitching about the last waiver for PR that was just for a short time anyways? Everyone wants a cut it seems. Could be a major uphill battle in Congress. There was a few of em IIRC D's and R's bipartisan BS plenty of lobbying and greasing of palms. Govt has become useless this shouldn't be that hard. That's interesting though about the shipbuilding capacity decline something I have never thought of for sure. That whole industry is a bit foreign to me.


fiddlersgreen2021 t1_iv2m4qb wrote

There is bitching whenever jones act waivers are signed for Puerto Rico because there isn’t a problem with shipping capacity on American bottoms. Most of Puerto Rico’s problems are in Puerto Rico. After the two big storms a couple years back Crowley had ships and barges stacked up with no way to get goods inland as the roads were gone.

Hawaii is another good example. There is nothing stopping hawaii from getting fuel on foreign ships, as long is it comes from foreign sources. This also happens on a regular basis. There is nothing stopping them from getting consumer goods via container on foreign flagged ships, aside from the fact that the harbors are too small, and they are way off the most efficient track for Asia to west coast traffic.


Loudergood t1_iv5qnqe wrote

If I owned an LNG freighter it'd be on its way to Europe right now.


fiddlersgreen2021 t1_iv2c86t wrote

Trinidad is a shorter voyage than loading in the gulf, but we have to compete for that gas on the global market.

We could have a pipeline but New York blocked it as they didn’t benefit from it. It’s why the offshore hub for export loading outside of Boston was shut down.


Aol_awaymessage t1_iv1sswv wrote

It was dumb to shut down the nuclear power plant (Vermont Yankee)


Phlowman t1_iv1txvz wrote

The plant needed expensive upgrades and unfortunately it was cheaper to shut it down and get energy from different sources.


Twombls t1_iv5vvyw wrote

Yeah people need to keep in mind vt yanky was built before the hydro quebec dams were online. So it was profitable to build. Now > 90% of our power comes from hydro quebec. And a nucler plant could never compete with cheap hydro. It just wouldn't be profitable lmao.


Kixeliz t1_iv24erb wrote

it was leaking tritium into the water supply. Not saying nuclear doesn't have a place, but that plant either needed to go or needed a major upgrade which no one wanted to pay for.


timberwolf0122 t1_iv28d4d wrote

Was that actually a significant problem? I’m being serious.

Tritium has a half life of 12.3 years, which is relatively short.

According to what I found on atomic insights VT YANKEE was leaking 100gal(320L)/day of water containing 2.5million picocuries/liter.

That’s 0.35 curies/ year of radiation diluted in 138,000 liters of water.

If you drank all that water yourself you’d get a dose or ~30 rem, which is around the max yearly dose for a us radiation worker. Realistically you’d end up consuming a such a small fraction of that water it would not impact you.


Kixeliz t1_iv29fdq wrote

here's the Dept. of Health's recap. While tritium alone may not be harmful in small doses, that it was leaking radioactive matieral was an issue.

> On February 14, the major source of the leak was found. A pair of stream pipes in the PDF icon Advance Off-Gas (AOG) pipe tunnel were found to be badly corroded and leaking nuclear steam. The floor drain of this concrete tunnel was found to be clogged with construction debris and mud, which caused condensate from the steam pipes to pool inside the tunnel and leak out at a failed joint.

Seems a tad problematic, no?


timberwolf0122 t1_iv34os1 wrote

Again, not great but also not terrible.

The plant was clearly aging, I just wish we could have built a new modern reactor on the site so it could stay running while the old reactors are decommissioned


Twombls t1_iv5w2vm wrote

"Not great not terrible" is exactly what you want to hear in terms of a nuclear plant lmao.


timberwolf0122 t1_iv6um60 wrote

I’m quoting a line from HBO’s Chernobyl, it was a little tongue in cheek


Loudergood t1_iv5qyhu wrote

Can't do that in the US these days. It'd make universal healthcare look cheap.


landodk t1_iv29a83 wrote

Not that in particular. But it doesn’t speak well to their maintenance. Nor was a water tower collapsing. No risk of contamination, but not a vote of confidence


timberwolf0122 t1_iv34ioc wrote

Not great, not terrible.

We do need to build new modern reactors though, it’s the safest path to carbon reduction


landodk t1_iv2946b wrote

They were approved and the owners shut it down because it was too expensive to keep open.


historycat95 t1_iv2v6t7 wrote

How would that have prevented a natural gas shortage? Did a lot of people switcj from electric to gas BECAUSE of the shutdown? No.


murrly t1_iv4dg7f wrote

We use more natural gas to create electricity when we shut down clean nuclear reactors because of feelings.


historycat95 t1_iv574xy wrote

We use zero natural gas to produce electricity.

In 2021, Vermont generated almost 100% of its electricity from renewable resources, a larger share than in any other state. About 50% of Vermont's utility-scale in-state electricity generation and 46% of the state's total generation came from conventional hydroelectric power.,came%20from%20conventional%20hydroelectric%20power.


murrly t1_iv5wpnv wrote

This isn't about Vermont though

This is about the New England grid. Which does use LNG for power.

Also I don't consider burning trees, that were cut by diesel, chipped up by diesel, shipped to the plant by diesel, then burnt creating CO2 to be green energy.


mountainofclay t1_iv2l1wi wrote

No problem here. I heat with wood.


thunder-cricket t1_iv2x8qz wrote

If there's no heating oil, everyone's gonna be heating with wood. And that will be a problem there.


mountainofclay t1_iv46w1b wrote

Well the post was talking about natural gas, not oil. Plus I believe most people would install electric heat pumps. Most of the electric in Vermont comes from hydro in Canada. No shortage of that. I wish I had natural gas where I am. I’d use it but I wouldn’t rely on just one fuel.


Most_Expert_8080 t1_iv4ssd9 wrote

Electric heat pumps are extremely expensive and do not work when it is very cold…


mountainofclay t1_iv59xy2 wrote

I agree which is why I don’t have one but I suppose if most people used them the price would come down and it would reduce the use of other fuels like NG so that the supposed shortage of NG wouldn’t be an issue. I seriously looked into a heat pump to heat during the “shoulder” seasons but like you said, the high initial cost is tough to swallow. As it is I don’t think there is any shortage of NG. Just scare mongering. I’m reluctant to electrify everything. I’d rather have more control of what I need. I don’t know how there won’t be a shortage of electricity if cars all go electric. I have wood available or can buy it locally so I primarily use that but I also use propane and electric when I have to. I feel sorry for city people who don’t have access to alternative fuels. They are at the mercy of large industry.


thunder-cricket t1_iv6k561 wrote

My bad, saying oil instead of gas. But my point remains.

If fuel X is a critical commodity in your state for heat during deadly cold winters, and you hear news there's going to be a severe shortage, saying "No problem here. I use fuel Y." is quite shortsighted.


mountainofclay t1_iv8ad4a wrote

Not for me personally because I have acres of hardwood trees I can cut. For those that don’t have this I agree.


thunder-cricket t1_iv8dw2k wrote

No for you too, bro.

Those trees you cut down won't grow back for to a similar size for decades or more. What are you gonna do when they are gone, if the shortage of fuel X continues or worsens in coming years?

Also, If it's so bad that you have to cut down your own trees for fuel to heat your house that will be true for hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of other land owners as well throughout VT and other New England states. So now we have millions of acres deforested, and all the negative economic and environmental consequences that come from it.

Also prices for goods and services that you use which really on heating sources besides wood are shooting up so you have more inflation going through the roof, not just for heating fuel. So you'll be paying more for other things along with everyone else.

Also poverty goes up, shortage of basic resources. That means joblessness, homelessness, crime and other social maladies go up. That affect you, also. Maybe some desperate people poach some of your hardwood trees so they don't freeze to death.

I was having a similar discussion with a Vermonter on this sub a few days ago who was arguing the $3B/year tourism industry didn't impact him because he personally didn't have a job tied to the tourism industry. Like he wasn't personally running a country store, selling maple-leaf shaped bottles of syrup to tourists, so that $3B had nothing to to with him, so fuck tourism. People really don't get how economies work.


mountainofclay t1_iv8gc3f wrote

I have 10 acres of hardwoods that I bought 30 years ago. I’ve cut firewood on it every year. Usually between 4 to 6 cords. I’ve also logged off the softwood twice in that time. There is now much more wood on that land than when I started. As far as it being sustainable and carbon neutral here is an article about this. In the late 1800s Vermont was largely deforested because of over harvesting. Much of the forest was simply burned down to make pasture for livestock. Wasted, in other words. Now the opposite is true. I agree that if everyone used wood to heat with and didn’t manage the forest properly then it would become deforested. I never said everyone should burn wood but only that for me it makes sense. Most people around me burn wood for part of their heat and the forest keeps growing. Many people who don’t burn wood do so because it is labor intensive. I get that, believe me. The good thing is the amount of labor required to cut a cord of wood stays the same. Price of other fuels fluctuates wildly and sends huge amounts of money into the hands of utility conglomerates and in some cases foreign governments that do not have our best interests at heart. I prefer to not give my money to the Saudi Arabians or Shell oil if I don’t have to. If you live in areas that are not forested than burning wood makes less sense.


texmarie t1_iv5l746 wrote

Isn’t the worry more that natural gas powers much of the electrical grid?


mountainofclay t1_iv8ajit wrote

From what I understand the power I buy comes mostly from hydro in Canada.


Master__Midnight t1_iv1wxrt wrote

" Pipeline deliveries are routinely supplemented by shipments of foreign-sourced LNG delivered to the LNG import facility in Everett, Massachusetts, on foreign flagged vessels. However, because of the war in Ukraine, imported LNG is not available to the New England region in the volumes necessary to meet this winter’s needs without causing further stress on European markets and the American economy. "

Translation: We're sending the gas to Europe. Get ready to sacrifice for Ukraine!


ringomanzana t1_iv2bw1p wrote

It doesn’t matter. It’s 70 degrees and I can survive on cereal.


VTPeWPeW247 t1_iv3pb1z wrote

The news tells me to be scared every day, I refuse.


Guaranteed-Return t1_iv36alk wrote

Don't forget that highly subsidized Ryegate power plant that is 77% INEFFICIENT. Green only matters in VT when, um, um, I guess it depends what side of their face they are talking out of.


bobsizzle t1_iv76a9s wrote

The easiest fix is weekly chili dog contents. There will be more than enough gas to go around l.


historycat95 t1_iv2vfle wrote

So when my parents said I was crazy by not getting the new gas hookup in town, and instead I switched to pellets....


Plant_table_couch t1_iv41izz wrote

Over 1 million people in the Boston Metro area heat their homes with natural gas from utility lines underneath their streets. This issue won’t impact Vermont quite as much, as heat pumps and wood/pellet stoves are quite popular here. But the impacts will be grave. Regardless of ether the scarcity is “manufactured” or not.


friedmpa t1_iv5drci wrote

Its gonna be 75 today lmao