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Oeslian t1_ivagycc wrote

A lot of the attitude towards out of Staters stems from the state becoming more and more un-affordable. People are sick of people coming up from Boston spending a fortune and making everything more expensive for everyone else. They feel like they are being pushed out of the only home they have ever known, and in fact they are. Wages do not match rent in this state, so unless you have a good job, good luck. This turns into resentment and anger towards the people who come here with money to blow.

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Twombls t1_ivalmh6 wrote

Yeah a lot of the anger on reddit is mostly just young vermonters just trying to live and constantly seeing posts like "ive never been to VT but I fell in love with it đŸ€©đŸ€©đŸ€©. I make 250k a year and will outbid all the locals on a home sight unseen đŸ€© please tell me where the nearest sushi bar is"

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cpujockey t1_ivfasni wrote

> Yeah a lot of the anger on reddit is mostly just young vermonters

I wouldn't say it's just the young folk. - Unless 30-40 is considered young these days.

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mediumeasy t1_ivgbaij wrote

yeah we're not young anymore we just totally missed out on the opportunities to reach the typical life milestones of adulthood like homeownership or parenthood because we're broke lol

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GimmieJohnson t1_ivan3ae wrote

As much as I don't like that I feel this is a nationwide issue. We as a country have too many renters and large property mgmt companies. As a whole more and more Americans are losing access to own an affordable private property of their own.

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Unique-Public-8594 t1_ivarjh7 wrote

If we tax the billionaires and corporate profits (heavily, nationally) and use that money to make housing way more affordable (nationally) and lower taxes on the little guy, the American Dream and financial security would be more easily achievable.

But Vermonters would still ridicule flatlanders as sport.

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SeaSeaworthiness4767 t1_ivb8bkq wrote

Spoken like a true socialist

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Geojour t1_ivbo4m7 wrote

Fuck yeah a bunch of us are socialists, you big dumb snowflake. You live in NH, stay in their sub. Why are you even in the Vermont sub? I don't troll the Wisconsin or Florida subs.

Always something to complain about. I bet you have giant flags and/or stickers on your truck, don't you. You do, don't you?

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msanthropical t1_ivd5ju1 wrote

Lol. I love how socialism gets thrown around like an insult.

Like, fuck yea I want my neighbours housed, well fed, and given proper healthcare. Why don’t you?

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Unique-Public-8594 t1_ivbd6je wrote

That label doesn’t bother me if we can help folks get ahead, plus get a handle on obscene wealth.

Social security, veteran benefits, public education are socialist also but we seem to like those very much.

94 b in profits in 2021: Apple

And Zuckerberg has $320mil worth of real estate.

You don’t think that’s a tad excessive?

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/267728/apples-net-income-since-2005/

~~

edit: added source, switched company

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indig0sun t1_ivbnqgc wrote

I’m a NY native who moved to VT for work, and i find this is a common sentiment in NY as well. I grew up in the Hudson valley, and once the pandemic hit people came from the city in DROVES. they snatched all the local real estate and turned it all into air bnbs, and turned beloved eateries into over priced and out of place cash grabs. I understand the anger vermonters feel too well.

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bean2124 t1_ivbvrme wrote

This happened in CT also. Locals are being out bid by mostly people from the city and hedge funders. Driving up the cost of housing. I know when I retire, I won't be able to afford anything in the town I grew up in and lived my whole life. It used to be a small fishing town when I was growing up. (I live in SE Ct. on the shore) Now it is high priced rents and high-priced houses for sale. Not that small town New England feel any more.

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indig0sun t1_ivc6v9z wrote

I’m in the same boat! I love where i grew up and would love to move back, but it’s just too expensive. Some folks i went to school with lost their house because their landlord turned their apartment into an air bnb
It’s vile what they get away with

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b4ngl4d3sh t1_ivcss00 wrote

Northeast NJ as well. Remote workers got tired of paying Manhattan rents and moved across the river. Rent was already out of control before that point.

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BookieLukie t1_ivcpf3o wrote

Hudson Valley native in Vermont as well. Yeah, they're not called "Mass-holes" for nothing.

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headgasketidiot t1_ivbdt3j wrote

Data conclusively shows that out of state migration is not the problem. Vermont saw a "huge" spike in migrants during the pandemic, which still only translated to something like .8% of the population. Meanwhile, 50% of all new construction and 20% of existing housing is second homes. Corporate buyers are making up 20% of all SFH sales in the state, up from just 5% a couple decades ago. My tiny town has a couple born-and-raised local landlords who have been aggressively expanding their portfolio in the last few years.

The anger at out-of-staters does nothing but obscure the real division, which is one of class.

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[deleted] t1_ivc60z3 wrote

[deleted]

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cpujockey t1_ivfbhxn wrote

> Meanwhile not building pathways to climb the class ladder.

yep and that's the real shitty thing about it all.

some of us grew up here, started to make it, and now that we're ready to go on to the next chapter of our lives - we're being told by latte sipping flatlanders to move out cause we cant afford to buy or rent.

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cpujockey t1_ivfbd9x wrote

Where you getting this data from?

I got people on the inside of real estate firms calling bullshit on your shit post.

The firm in particular has sold more homes to flat landers than natives - and they have the data to prove it from their brokerage.

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headgasketidiot t1_ivfd594 wrote

>The firm in particular has sold more homes to flat landers than natives - and they have the data to prove it from their brokerage.

I don't actually think that disagrees with what I'm saying, but those people aren't moving here. They're either out-of-state landlords or buying vacation homes.

Here's a breakdown of the data. From https://vtdigger.org/2022/08/12/wildly-unusual-census-shows-explosion-of-migration-into-vermont-in-pandemics-first-year/

>More than 4,800 people moved to Vermont between 2020 and 2021, the highest net migration total the state has reported in at least a decade, according to U.S. Census Bureau population estimates.

4800 people is around .7% of the population.

Rest of data is from https://www.vermontpublic.org/podcast/brave-little-state/2022-02-03/how-can-vermont-solve-its-housing-crisis

>* In 1999, 4.8% of medium-priced homes were sold to corporate buyers,” Joe says. By 2018, that number jumped to 20%.

> * As of a couple years ago, nearly 20% of Vermont’s housing stock was being used seasonally, not year-round, which is a higher percentage than most other states. And that number has likely grown since the pandemic took hold.

That 20% from 2018 is now out of date. This says it's up to 26% now.

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CHECK_FLOKI t1_ivauzm6 wrote

.... and in turn Vermonters lash out at the wrong people.

Meanwhile the legislature should be the first people getting the brunt of the heat.

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Successful_Order_638 t1_ivb5b2d wrote

What should the legislature be doing differently?

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[deleted] t1_ivbaxlf wrote

[deleted]

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CHECK_FLOKI t1_ivdjcy9 wrote

Excellent write up. Please consider running for office. I'm sick of meme candidates and eagle face litterers everywhere.

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headgasketidiot t1_ivd8vti wrote

Why not just ban the thing you want to ban? What's the advantage of trying to get rid of a bad thing by increasing taxes vs just getting rid of the bad thing? AirBnB is bad. We all hate it. Let's just get rid of it so that people can live in those houses and be done with it.

It seems like as a society we've decided to replace a government that does things with a rube goldberg machine of tax incentives.

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popquizmf t1_ivej0nz wrote

Because then your treating every problem with a hammer? AirBnBs aren't the problem, it's most AirBnBs that are the problem. People who convert part of their home, or make a yurt on their land to rent, those people are not the problem, and your "just ban it!" Attitude isn't specific enough. That's why tax incentives work better when done well. Make owning a second he here very soon expensive tax wise, and use all that extra tax money to subsidize affordable housing and rentals. Your method does nothing. It opens the floodgate of real estate because now people have to sell their second homes. Inventories skyrocket, prices for everyone tank, and we haven't figured out how to help fund affordable rentals/homes.

If people want to buy second homes here, let them, but make them pay taxes through the nose to help everyone else. It's not like the average Vermonter can afford the 500k+ homes these people are buying.

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headgasketidiot t1_ivem83j wrote

> AirBnBs aren't the problem, it's most AirBnBs that are the problem. People who convert part of their home, or make a yurt on their land to rent, those people are not the problem, and your "just ban it!" Attitude isn't specific enough. That's why tax incentives work better when done well.

Your "when done well" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. My point is that your solution is just my solution + more steps + an exception for rich people.

If you want to tax things to disincentivize them, you have to make carve outs for the things you mention or you end up disincentivizing those too. If you have to go through the exercise of figuring out what's harmful and what's desirable anyway, then our solutions look the same except yours lets rich people pay their way out of it.

Why not just ban airbnbs in single family homes and allow yurts, spare bedrooms, etc.?

edit: fix autocarrot

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smokiechick t1_ivfhnpy wrote

I can't imagine the cost of enforcing those restrictions. No one in their right mind would self-report and we don't have the manpower to do inspections. If we have a registry, so that we know which properties are in this category, we can prosecute them for property tax evasion when income is disclosed.

I have an axe to grind against AirBnBers, so I'm more than happy to spend my free time figuring out how to make them suffer financially. Throwing them out doesn't prolong suffering nor does it earn revenue for the state.

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headgasketidiot t1_ivfk28d wrote

I could not disagree more. Tax enforcement is famously complicated, while by its very nature short-term rental has to be well advertised and publicly available to be viable as a business. AirBnB et al provide you with a list or properties along with a description. It'd be so much easier to enforce a ban on SFH housing on airbnb and other sites than for each town to audit the property taxes of every house to figure out if that person actually lives there and if so which tier of property taxes they belong to and such. We know rich people will just pay for accountants to try to skirt the rules, which will lead to very complex tax audits of rental empires. It's well documented that the IRS is underfunded and can't enforce the existing tax rules at the federal level.

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Successful_Order_638 t1_ivbm2w6 wrote

I think you’d have a commerce clause problem with some of that.

My own suggestions: end 5 acre zoning and eliminate Use Value Appraisal program (current use) eligibility for anybody who is not really a farmer or a forester.

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headgasketidiot t1_ivbeb0x wrote

Build public housing and ban airbnb.

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New-Double-3695 t1_ivdkrdb wrote

building more public housing doesn’t help a city. Building affordable units that add to the grand list.

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headgasketidiot t1_ivenoas wrote

American governmnet-owned housing does totally suck because it comes from a racist history of wanting to segregate poor, usually black city residents. It's a total self-own, because there are good examples of social housing being very desirable in cities. More than 40% of French renters live in publicly owned housing, and French cities and towns are top tier in the world in basically every way.

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Dire88 t1_ivbeots wrote

Well let's be realistic though.

If Vermont was not a tourist destination, what industry would its economy be built on?

Seems pretty much every town and legislative body bends over backwards to court the tourist dollar, but continuously fails to invest that money into building any sort of sustainable and well paying industries for locals to work for.

Even then, it fails to protect what little bit of cottage industries are available - like Bed & Breakfasts - by failing to place restrictions on short term rentals because it would cause lashback from the secondary home owners making a quick buck.

And don't even get me started on how poorly local businesses are run. Number of business owners who simply don't answer the phone is ridiculous. It's like they purposely make it difficult for you to give them money, just so they can bitch about not making enough to stay in business.

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huskers2468 t1_ivcaihk wrote

>And don't even get me started on how poorly local businesses are run.

This is the number one thing that stood out to me after moving here. I love that they are all small business owners, and I want to utilize them, but it's difficult.

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murshawursha t1_ivcwkla wrote

>Seems pretty much every town and legislative body bends over backwards to court the tourist dollar

I would draw a distinction between catering to tourists, and catering to second homeowners or rental property owners. We can invite guests and provide them hospitality, while still making sure they stay in hotels (not AirBNBs) and go home at the end of their vacation.

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TwoNewfies t1_iveml9h wrote

We called a local woodstove company that advertised glass replacement when the old glass in our stove cracked. Took them 2 days to tell us to find an autoglass store, and make sure they gave us the right kind of glass. So went online and a Midwest place had wonderful service and support. The Brattleboro Agway has been rude, pet store too. Prices over the state lines are lower. Can you tell I'm frustrated?

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amiss8487 t1_ivd9yzy wrote

I have to wonder if it’s an excuse. My landlord built a place above his garage and charged 1800 for one bedroom. Don’t get me wrong, dude was awesome, place great..,yet people kinda suck anymore at saving and making financially “smart” decisions. Do they spend their money like wild and then blame it on expensive living?

I only say this because he seemed to be bitter about his situation and “having to charge sooo much” yet then had every toy imaginable (even a plane) and seemed to live rather comfortably. Obviously I am only judging, and I acknowledge this, but sometimes (especially as a renter who is terrible with my own money)..it feels that people just jack up prices because they 1. Can, 2. Everyone else is and 3. Are selfish or suck with money.

If anything I empathize with both people and my own lack of financial security is another persons gain

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