Rest assured, it's not all out of staters, just the entitled and ignorant ones. There's a bunch of em too

It’s bristly on Reddit, and can quickly turn sour if you come in to Vermont and want to change it.

I think you nailed it. When we first moved to Vermont plumbers and electricians would not return my calls. A neighbor said to say he recommended I call when leaving a message. Calls started getting returned. Simply too many entitled arrogant people from out of state think they are doing Vermont a favor by bringing their money.

Same as New York. Nothing but gracious folks here in upstate. When I cross into Vermont, I have nothing but great interactions.

Don't assume that all Vermonters are "bristly". You kind of did with that your first sentence. You sound nice compare to the last southern transplants that I met, who were rude and white-trashy.

I did some carpentry for a recently moved to Vermont North Carolinian. A really nice guy but he got into a real stitch if the mail carrier wasn't punctual (not even a thing in Vermont) and if the mail carrier didn't pick up his mail when his flag was up. He was pacing back and forth and declaring who he was going to call, complain to, demand answers from. City Hall would hear from him. Told him he could do that. He might never see his mail again. Everybody knows everybody else. If he really wanted results, he might consider leaving the mail carrier a nice card, meeting him on the road and being neighborly. As far as I know, he followed my advice. He's still getting mail.

I’m a dreaded NYC transplant and have really enjoyed the people here thus far. Not quite having luck making friends but people are perfectly kind!

Bingo! People (including myself) have come to Vermont because they like what it is and what it stands for, so why move here and try to change it to the place you left??

In Vermont almost everyone's kind. There's some places that aren't as kind in the state. But those are far out in the county. Also my mother and some friends love hearing southern accents so it's always a plus up here.

We bristle when entitled people bang into our home calling us backwoods morons who should be grateful for their money, and mock us when we get upset at having parts of our state bulldozed to make way for them. But who wouldn’t in that case?

Welcome! Glad you’re finding out we don’t bite, and neither do the bears!

Are mail carriers that punctual anywhere?

Because you are a rich entitled person who thinks they know better than the locals what’s best for the state. I’m a transplant as well and have had nothing but great experiences with neighbors and locals, but like you said, I respect what Vermont is… it’s why I moved here.

Couldn't agree more, 100%.

I do think this is generally where out of staters go wrong. There isn’t convenience in Vermont, and to expect it and get angry when you are inconvenienced is a sure fire way to make your life worse.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not an easy adjustment, but it’s not something that’s going to change so you need to adjust

That falls under the category of “ fuck around and find out”. Don’t be an asshole and most will return the favor like for like.

Many of the people here on reddit give VT that reputation. The reality really is quite the opposite.

I'll always find it funny that our VT subreddit is full of mostly liberal/progressive mindset people yet they act so intolerant to many things and people.

Lol you’re from the deep south; things move at a slower pace and people are generally more kind and neighborly. VT hostility towards out of staters is aimed at those from the city who drive 100 miles an hour, honk there horn relentlessly and treat locals or workers like second class hicks.

Sssshhhhhh. You keep telling people this, and they'll all want to move here. /s

Seriously, I was a transplant. Awesome, very welcoming place. People can take a little while to thaw to you fully, but they are always nice.

It really depends on the context of the situation as well and the culture the “flat lander” is coming from. Some folks from very outgoing places feel we are cold because we don’t hug every person we meet or greet every person we pass on the street.

Also, don’t come here and start telling us why our way of life or politics etc are wrong. That I think will rub anyone the wrong way. I hate transplants that are like “yeah I had to leave California, it’s such a disaster politically and economically” and then try to push for policies that mimic the same place they came from.

A lot of the attitude towards out of Staters stems from the state becoming more and more un-affordable. People are sick of people coming up from Boston spending a fortune and making everything more expensive for everyone else. They feel like they are being pushed out of the only home they have ever known, and in fact they are. Wages do not match rent in this state, so unless you have a good job, good luck. This turns into resentment and anger towards the people who come here with money to blow.

I'm an out-of-stater and I have had no trouble adjusting to life here. However, I come from Colorado and The culture in Colorado is relatively similar to how it is here in Vermont. I'd say the major difference is in Colorado we like to chill and Vermont people like to be nice. Which works out great even if they aren't exactly the same. There were some differences like getting used to people being overly nice (especially while driving, my gosh the difference in the number of people who take/give right of way is insane). I've never had trouble getting appointments (except dental) and most people are friendly as long as you are friendly first. This I think is the key. The people here in Vermont are skeptical of staters because many out-of-staters aren't friendly or try to shove their values down your throat which Vermont wants none of. They just want to be themselves. I can respect that. Also, be careful of the culture shock coming from the south. Vermont is rural but it is a different kind of rural vs the south or west. To be honest I do prefer Vermont Rural vs Rural out west because rural out west is the "GET OF MY PROPERTY" ultra-conservative type who just hates anyone who doesn't look, talk, think or act like one of them. Never had that happened here in Vermont. Even people in rural parts of the state are super friendly and compassionate which was a major shock to me whereas out west the rural parts are more insular.

You still have a ton of NIMBYs here in Vermont though just like out west and that is my only gripe with the culture. NIMBYs are fucking everywhere. I understand the sentiment but NIMBYism is not a good way to preserve local culture.

I moved from the shorline of CT to southern VT in Cavendish. I love it here.

Literally everyone i have met is amazing. None of that NY/CT/RI/Mass attititude of “me first, out of my way, no time to talk” it’s been 100% friendly, helpful folks that see you working in your yard and stop by to offer help.

Online, in FB or Reddit it seems to be the opposite. The “fuck off we don’t want you here” comes from the seemingly younger crowds and the anonymous users of the area.

Some of the Facebook groups can come off pretty elitist and don’t seem to really be interested in helping anybody that’s not from Vermont figure out how to fully integrate here.

On Reddit, where things are more anonymous, people flat out come off as vitreous or mean.

If you treat Vermont and Vermonters with respect and kindness you’ll get nothing but the same in return.

Treat vermont like your own personal playground and act like you’re better than us, gonna be a different story

Vermont needs/should change a lot.

It sounds like you are coming to VT from a different perspective than some of the other flatlanders that we don’t like.

The ones VT’ere don’t like come from NJ or Boston driving a new Range River and buy out a 100 acre plot of pristine forest, cut down 10 acres of beautiful healthy trees and replace that with a 6,000 sq ft “farmhouse style” McMansion complete with a golf course lawn.

I think some of this is jealously, some of this is annoyance at rising property values, and some of it is how it impacts the otherwise middle class simplicity of classical VT.

It does, and I actually removed that part of my post. Generally I’ve seen the opposite though, arguing for more restrictive zoning, making it more difficult to build versus making it easier. Lots of nimby arguments for businesses

This was my thought! Sometimes they come at 930 sometimes they are there around noon. Sometimes in between

Yeah a lot of the anger on reddit is mostly just young vermonters just trying to live and constantly seeing posts like "ive never been to VT but I fell in love with it 🤩🤩🤩. I make 250k a year and will outbid all the locals on a home sight unseen 🤩 please tell me where the nearest sushi bar is"

As a 57 year Vermont resident, I see people that complain about “flatlanders” are complaining about people they actually don’t know. But transplants that move in next door are welcomed with open arms.

I feel many southern states can relate to Vermonters. I would imagine a 4th generation Tennesee native wouldn't appreciate city folk from NJ or CT coming there to stir shit or push their lifestyle onto a small Tennessee town. We generally don't mind out of staters and most are fine. It's the condescending ones and leaf peepers at Quechee we can't stand.

I mean for fucks sake they're trees and it makes no sense they come all the way up here when upstate NY and hell even those states have autumn foliage. It makes as much sense driving 3 hours from Arkansas to Texas to stare at cacti and hold up traffic because you're doing 15 under the speed limit.

Also side note is I love how out of staters act like they're doing a favor for us when they come up for sky season because it helps the economy. You know who else comes up here then as well? Jamaicans, Dominicans and folks from Latin America. Not hating on them and infact I respect the grind but that's less money staying in VT and America as a whole.

As much as I don't like that I feel this is a nationwide issue. We as a country have too many renters and large property mgmt companies. As a whole more and more Americans are losing access to own an affordable private property of their own.

To be fair a good chunk of folks from St Albans, Rutland and Bennington are rude and white trashy.

It's really just about rich assholes. And there should be a different name for it. Richlanders? Karenlanders?

Welcome. You are our kind.

People who are pushy don’t last.

People who are kind and patient tend to stay.

Here in southern Vermont we’re inundated by the classless wealthy from the tri-state area (Ct/NY/NJ). They are generally rude, narcissistic, shallow, and refuse to display any manners if graciousness (please, thank you, excuse me). These are the types of ghouls who are bristled at, and rightly so.

If we tax the billionaires and corporate profits (heavily, nationally) and use that money to make housing way more affordable (nationally) and lower taxes on the little guy, the American Dream and financial security would be more easily achievable.

But Vermonters would still ridicule flatlanders as sport.

Ah yes… name dropping.

If the a-holes from New Jersey that I always sense Vermont locals are “stand-offish” toward. As a life-long Jersey Shore resident who is in Vermont every winter I don’t blame the locals one bit. It is embarrassing being in VT with Jersey license plates. Collectively we Jerseyans are ignorant, impatient, and disrespectful to Vermonters. I apologize Vermont. I promise to not act like Jersey when in your amazing state.

We are kind of bristly by nature because we don’t fuck around. But, welcoming outsiders is necessary for many reasons, especially our shrinking population of younger folks. Plus, in the words of Ashley Nicole Black, we’re the most “diversity craving white people” (see here: https://youtu.be/lr7VpjFPGvk). We need more diversity in Vermont so by othering every transplant, we self-sabotage.

Traditionally, a lot of people also try to take advantage of Vermont’s hyper local political scene since we are so small. If you want to learn more about that, read about Jack McMullen vs. Vermont icon, Fred Tuttle. And there are a few like that in our Vermont’s senate now 🙃. Anyway, Vermonters don’t mind new residents, but our attitude is very much “eat the rich.”

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100% with you there.

I’ll bite. How?

.... and in turn Vermonters lash out at the wrong people.

Meanwhile the legislature should be the first people getting the brunt of the heat.

Won’t argue there. The folks I knew were from TN and NC. I stress that not everyone is as bad as they were to me.

I moved here from Portland, OR earlier this week. West coast people are fake-nice. People here are genuinely nice.

Here’s where I get mad. I live on a beautiful dirt road in the middle of nowhere and enjoyed having no neighbors. On a road two miles long, 4 houses get built in a year and a half. Then the 100 year old plus maple trees that lined the road were fucking cut down by one of the new people. It was like they couldn’t just leave well enough alone. They probably have ‘climate hero’ in their twitter bio

"It needs to have all of the services in places move from (Boston, NYC, etc). Public transportation across the state, five students perv teacher, etc. The natives are so ignorant when they complain about crippling taxes (so they say!) to fund it all! I make 150% more in salary and pay my fair share (after all of the tax credits and deductions that I deserve of course)."

That is the original problem that dirt poor native Vermonters had with flatlanders in the late 60s and still have.

Sorry. I’m a born in Mass. raised in NH and moving to Maine person who got suggested this.

This isn’t just a Vermont attitude. You see it in all of New England. And in my experience people will bitch but if you’re coming in and being a part of your community. Not trying make it your old neighborhood you’ll be welcome. My wife started a job in mid costal Maine working on a boat. She uses that area like other boat workers do and has had no problem fitting in. I plan to work local business when I get there. HellIf you have new ideas. You will be welcome if you talk to us right. If you come and add too much change too fast, and pretend a local economy doesn’t know how it will be affected you will find people are unhappy. Especially if the prices you bringing push out the local workers.

Things change over time. It’s not reasonable for me to be mad over new things being introduced slowlybut if you’re coming and asking for a system to be changed immediately you need more than “because this is how we handled it here”

Thanks for sharing your experience. Welcome to Vermont :)

What should the legislature be doing differently?

I think the reputation fits. We are hostile to people that don’t respect our people and our surroundings. If you enjoy our state and respect your time here, should be a great time.

Eh, we sometimes don’t get mail on Tuesdays. We just kind of roll along with it.

Spoken like a true socialist

We in NH feel the same when left wing vermonters move here and ruin our state.

I moved up last year and everyone I met so far has been alright. I don't try to change things because I am not from here, but the best thing I can do as a transplant is vote, be a good neighbor and be kind.

I've found myself yelling "Go home!" to out of staters who nearly run me off the road. All the property is bought up, posted, and then seldom used. Rich folks come and try to mess with the hunting/trapping laws. The tourism has increased drastically and with it comes the destruction of the south end of willoughby lake and littering rude ass holes. Lots of little annoyances. I love meeting new people and making new friends but i want to be able to afford to live in my own home.I just want 10 acres and a small home to pursue my dream projects but it's impossible to afford even a half acre of bare land. I love this place but I've had an awful pit in my stomach for a while now. There's not much I can do but hope it doesn't get ruined any worse

I almost ran out of gas in a vermont backwoods at night thinking there’s got to be an open gas station around here, and nope that’s not a thing

Most places near me leave the pumps on at night for CC purchases

It’s old Vermont vs new Vermont. New VT is more transplants then people born and bred here. Most people who were born here move away the first chance they get. Remember VT and Wyoming are the only 2 states with more second home owners then primary

I’ve only ever met nice people when I visit my friends in Vermont (:

Nothing but gracious folks in upstate NY is quite an overstatement

I don’t know if I want the perv teacher, but I’m a Flatlander too

That’s good to hear, I know some Vermonters to be pretty cold towards non-white outsiders.

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Yikes-- read the room, crusty NHorite!

Mail carrier? I pick up my mail at the post office.

That label doesn’t bother me if we can help folks get ahead, plus get a handle on obscene wealth.

Social security, veteran benefits, public education are socialist also but we seem to like those very much.

94 b in profits in 2021: Apple

And Zuckerberg has $320mil worth of real estate.

You don’t think that’s a tad excessive?

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/267728/apples-net-income-since-2005/

~~

edit: added source, switched company

Data conclusively shows that out of state migration is not the problem. Vermont saw a "huge" spike in migrants during the pandemic, which still only translated to something like .8% of the population. Meanwhile, 50% of all new construction and 20% of existing housing is second homes. Corporate buyers are making up 20% of all SFH sales in the state, up from just 5% a couple decades ago. My tiny town has a couple born-and-raised local landlords who have been aggressively expanding their portfolio in the last few years.

The anger at out-of-staters does nothing but obscure the real division, which is one of class.

Build public housing and ban airbnb.

Well let's be realistic though.

If Vermont was not a tourist destination, what industry would its economy be built on?

Seems pretty much every town and legislative body bends over backwards to court the tourist dollar, but continuously fails to invest that money into building any sort of sustainable and well paying industries for locals to work for.

Even then, it fails to protect what little bit of cottage industries are available - like Bed & Breakfasts - by failing to place restrictions on short term rentals because it would cause lashback from the secondary home owners making a quick buck.

And don't even get me started on how poorly local businesses are run. Number of business owners who simply don't answer the phone is ridiculous. It's like they purposely make it difficult for you to give them money, just so they can bitch about not making enough to stay in business.

Must be you. They love me.

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I grew up in upstate NY and I only speak from my own experience. Much of upstate New Yorkers still have the downstate attitude. Attitude…it’s what makes NY NY 😂

I think you’d have a commerce clause problem with some of that.

My own suggestions: end 5 acre zoning and eliminate Use Value Appraisal program (current use) eligibility for anybody who is not really a farmer or a forester.

I’m a NY native who moved to VT for work, and i find this is a common sentiment in NY as well. I grew up in the Hudson valley, and once the pandemic hit people came from the city in DROVES. they snatched all the local real estate and turned it all into air bnbs, and turned beloved eateries into over priced and out of place cash grabs. I understand the anger vermonters feel too well.

Fuck yeah a bunch of us are socialists, you big dumb snowflake. You live in NH, stay in their sub. Why are you even in the Vermont sub? I don't troll the Wisconsin or Florida subs.

Always something to complain about. I bet you have giant flags and/or stickers on your truck, don't you. You do, don't you?

It's mostly tourists that the hostility goes to.

If you are willing to move there. Or make some sort of commitment. You get a welcome wagon.

Is that why I hate it here? Because I’m rich?

Who the fuck would move to NH?

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There's a lot to be said on this. Vermonters will absolutely help you out in a pinch. We're generally good people who are really about small communities and helping out neighbors. It's a truly wonderful state.

That said, the frustration that you're hearing about online is coming from people being upset about out-of-staters moving to Vermont and rising up the cost of housing and rent. A lot of Vermonters who have lived here for a long time are being priced out of their homes and communities and neighborhoods. For a culture very "about" community, that's really really difficult for many of us.

I know you love vermont and we are happy to have you but just know that this has been hard for people. They won't express it in person, but the general thought is there and it's not about you in particular, it's about the overall shift.

There's another component, too, which is the attitude that some people who move here (not you, necessarily, since this post seems to be pretty kind) have about Vermonters. But for some people there's a little bit of looking down their nose at us. Almost like we're country bumpkins. I see a lot of Tik Toks and instagram posts like "Oooh I just moved to this quaint place! Look how cute all the people are!"

Again, this particular grievance is not about you but it does make a lot of us Vermonters bristle. It's not "quaint and cute" it's a state full of complexities like every other state.

The bottom line: everyone moves here some time. None of us is really native to this area, but those of us who have called it home for a long time have deeply engrained traditions and love for our communities that should be respected. If people can move here without jacking up the price and while respecting our community traditions, I hope this transition period will go alright. And welcome. I hope February isn't too cruel :)

Hey for a second glass hick you only made a few spelling and grammatical errors there, good job bud.

Oh, who sold them the land I wonder?

Ab. so. lutely.

I get how that could be frustrating, but without buying the land yourself, I don't think it's reasonable to expect other people will not build homes on land you don't own and that isn't protected in some way as a state/national forest or something like that, as long as it is zoned for residential use at that density. People need places to live, and we don't have enough of them.

This reminds me of a couple winters ago -- one of the early transplants was a New York guy and he moved to Montpelier. My mom was there and saw the woman behind the deli chatting with a neighbor who came in. New York guy started getting really antsy, jumping back and forth. And finally he said "God, screw this state. This would never happen in New York" and left.

My mom and all the other Vermonters just laughed. That's not how we do things, my dude.

This happened in CT also. Locals are being out bid by mostly people from the city and hedge funders. Driving up the cost of housing. I know when I retire, I won't be able to afford anything in the town I grew up in and lived my whole life. It used to be a small fishing town when I was growing up. (I live in SE Ct. on the shore) Now it is high priced rents and high-priced houses for sale. Not that small town New England feel any more.

Isn’t that the plot of Funny Farm?

Don’t have to be. You could be young

Still kinda young, sure lol

🤫don’t tell too many people we are nice up here or they all will come. it’s taking a lot of effort to build the reputation that we aren’t nice. Now don’t you go ruining a good thing for everyone.

Love Karenlanders 😂

Ha, there is a huge gap in this state for opportunities for younger people, probably younger than you, but still there is no reason for grads to stay. I’d say beyond that, there is a gap for most a ages that want a job. It’s really baffling that the state would give money for WFH relocating but don’t seem to seriously invest in bringing business here. I can’t imagine long term health of the state economy that is increasingly built on tourism and the service industry… especially as snowfall goes down and summer heat goes up.

To be honest my job is the only thing I really like about being here, pays well, very fair work-life balance, lotta perks, but it’s the only one I’ve had in about a decade of living here that I’ve felt that way about, the rest of them have been shit.

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I’m in the same boat! I love where i grew up and would love to move back, but it’s just too expensive. Some folks i went to school with lost their house because their landlord turned their apartment into an air bnb…It’s vile what they get away with

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Vermonters are also polite remember that too

That’s fine. I understand that. They didn’t cut down the trees to build their house. They cut down the trees after they had built the house. It made no sense to do so and messed up the aesthetic of the road.

Do t be silly hillbilly. There is no such thang

>And don't even get me started on how poorly local businesses are run.

This is the number one thing that stood out to me after moving here. I love that they are all small business owners, and I want to utilize them, but it's difficult.

we mostly get pissed at new yorkers or bostonians that come and bring bad driving and upper middle class money

It’s all about Bernie.

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I was born in Vermont, definitely has gotten worse especially if you don’t fit their norms or follow their COVID rules even outside. Usually I see it from boomers and older people but occasionally from the college age folks too. I live in the west now and then almost moved south too. Both those places much more happy and friendly people. Maybe it’s the cold😂that has them being sour.

> Then this weekend I got locked into a situation at a bar where I was waiting for food and getting my ear talked off by some pretty condescending (and high volume) people from Boston and Jersey, and I was like, okay I get it. I was the bristly one.

lol

Glad you like it here. We like you too. <3

But here is the thing, lived in Burlington 20+ years and now it’s not safe at all and sorry it’s getting really run down because people can’t afford it then trash our street. I love Vermont how it’s pretty in the fall but otherwise no growth and too expensive. So glad I moved!

"The reality really is quite the opposite" didn't tip you off?

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Hudson Valley native in Vermont as well. Yeah, they're not called "Mass-holes" for nothing.

Around here we just hate tourists. We don't mind people from out of state at all and will be as helpful as we can be and even share all the hidden gems.

But when leaf peepers come to town? That's where the hate for outsiders starts. They drive slowly and don't oay attention. And because of it they cause car accidents. They fill up parking spaces to shops they dont go to. They crowd sidewalks or block off traffic to take pictures or just to chit chat with each other. Hell one time on a back dirt road a guy was painting a fall picture of the mountains, in the middle of the road. We had to ask him to move so we could drive home. They're inconsiderate and tend to be very rude. If you ask them to move you get nothing but attitude no matter how polite you are. These people even go into people's yards and walk through private property for videos and photos or better views.

It's obnoxious.

So around here we just hate leaf peepers that come to town every autumn

Northeast NJ as well. Remote workers got tired of paying Manhattan rents and moved across the river. Rent was already out of control before that point.

When the population is small, it’s easy to care about others. I love it up here because the Vermont attitude is one that remembers how much we need each other to survive, and thus helping our neighbors isn’t a favor or optional. It’s just what we do.

>Seems pretty much every town and legislative body bends over backwards to court the tourist dollar

I would draw a distinction between catering to tourists, and catering to second homeowners or rental property owners. We can invite guests and provide them hospitality, while still making sure they stay in hotels (not AirBNBs) and go home at the end of their vacation.

I did this for years, going to PO every day and paying for it, and then realized somebody will bring mail right to your house for free! Best bargain in VT. Only need to prop up your mailbox every year after the plow knocks it down

Locals cut down trees too

Lol Reddit makes Vermonters look bad. I moved here from the Midwest and had the same kind of experience as you. Have made some of the coolest friends since moving here.

Happened in parts of Michigan too. Especially the Ann Arbor area.

Lol have you ever tuned into Johnny Wanzer?

Same

I’m debating moving from TX to VT in the next year or so. I really need a break from this place and your comments are very reassuring considering I’ve hear a lot of bad things.

I’m from Florida and as you can guess it’s a literal nightmare. I see that happening in New England and it sucks. I love VT and hope it can prevent what happened in Fl from happening here.

Vermont has some great public schools, STEM programs, and colleges. I'm an engineer and went through a job hunting cycle here. I finally found a really cool local job that pays great, but 90% of the engineering jobs I have seen pay 25-50% less than the national average. New grad openings in Vermont today tend to pay $10k-$20k less than I made when I graduated in the Midwest in 2008. If a new grad can get past that, the opportunities are few and far between. It seems that Vermont is cranking out some well educated engineers with a lot of potential, but the well paying and interesting jobs they trained for just don't exist here. I think that is a reoccurring theme in other fields as well.

Hi, I’m your new friend lol

hihihi

Hi! Hope you’re having a great fall so far. Have you experienced winter here yet?

I haven’t! I went to school in northern Ohio in the snow belt so I have some idea of what to expect, but I’m sure I will be learning a lot.

Lol. I love how socialism gets thrown around like an insult.

Like, fuck yea I want my neighbours housed, well fed, and given proper healthcare. Why don’t you?

It just tends to be more icy.

It’s mainly about flatlanders being assholes and we cant stand it but as long as you show respect and kindness, we we have open our arms

Why not just ban the thing you want to ban? What's the advantage of trying to get rid of a bad thing by increasing taxes vs just getting rid of the bad thing? AirBnB is bad. We all hate it. Let's just get rid of it so that people can live in those houses and be done with it.

It seems like as a society we've decided to replace a government that does things with a rube goldberg machine of tax incentives.

I don't think that's legal? I think someone has to be there to shut the pumps off in case of fire. I could be wrong though.

I have to wonder if it’s an excuse. My landlord built a place above his garage and charged 1800 for one bedroom. Don’t get me wrong, dude was awesome, place great..,yet people kinda suck anymore at saving and making financially “smart” decisions. Do they spend their money like wild and then blame it on expensive living?

I only say this because he seemed to be bitter about his situation and “having to charge sooo much” yet then had every toy imaginable (even a plane) and seemed to live rather comfortably. Obviously I am only judging, and I acknowledge this, but sometimes (especially as a renter who is terrible with my own money)..it feels that people just jack up prices because they 1. Can, 2. Everyone else is and 3. Are selfish or suck with money.

If anything I empathize with both people and my own lack of financial security is another persons gain

Shrug… dunno, all I know is they work.

This is the answer.

We're mostly hostile to outsiders that try to run for our political offices.

Excellent write up. Please consider running for office. I'm sick of meme candidates and eagle face litterers everywhere.

building more public housing doesn’t help a city. Building affordable units that add to the grand list.

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Sometimes they’re ’nice’ to you just for the stories to tell other Vermonters…

There's only a few spelling/grammatical errors in your reply! Keep up the great work!

Outsiders move here, then become aggressively active in local politics and set about to make Vermont exactly whatever place they came from.

Because then your treating every problem with a hammer? AirBnBs aren't the problem, it's most AirBnBs that are the problem. People who convert part of their home, or make a yurt on their land to rent, those people are not the problem, and your "just ban it!" Attitude isn't specific enough. That's why tax incentives work better when done well. Make owning a second he here very soon expensive tax wise, and use all that extra tax money to subsidize affordable housing and rentals. Your method does nothing. It opens the floodgate of real estate because now people have to sell their second homes. Inventories skyrocket, prices for everyone tank, and we haven't figured out how to help fund affordable rentals/homes.

If people want to buy second homes here, let them, but make them pay taxes through the nose to help everyone else. It's not like the average Vermonter can afford the 500k+ homes these people are buying.

> AirBnBs aren't the problem, it's most AirBnBs that are the problem. People who convert part of their home, or make a yurt on their land to rent, those people are not the problem, and your "just ban it!" Attitude isn't specific enough. That's why tax incentives work better when done well.

Your "when done well" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. My point is that your solution is just my solution + more steps + an exception for rich people.

If you want to tax things to disincentivize them, you have to make carve outs for the things you mention or you end up disincentivizing those too. If you have to go through the exercise of figuring out what's harmful and what's desirable anyway, then our solutions look the same except yours lets rich people pay their way out of it.

Why not just ban airbnbs in single family homes and allow yurts, spare bedrooms, etc.?

edit: fix autocarrot

We called a local woodstove company that advertised glass replacement when the old glass in our stove cracked. Took them 2 days to tell us to find an autoglass store, and make sure they gave us the right kind of glass. So went online and a Midwest place had wonderful service and support. The Brattleboro Agway has been rude, pet store too. Prices over the state lines are lower. Can you tell I'm frustrated?

American governmnet-owned housing does totally suck because it comes from a racist history of wanting to segregate poor, usually black city residents. It's a total self-own, because there are good examples of social housing being very desirable in cities. More than 40% of French renters live in publicly owned housing, and French cities and towns are top tier in the world in basically every way.

In my opinion, as one of those bristly natives. 99% of the flatlanders or transplants that move in are from New England and NY and in general are successfully turning our state into what they left. I hear a southern drawl or a Midwest accent and I’ll be much less stand offish. I think the motto people need to live by when moving here is “fit in or fuck off”

This is universal not just in Vermont

I relocated from the UK to VT and I’ve never felt more welcomed. I now pay it forwards when ever i can, like helping visitors trying to take. A group photo by a covered bridge or I’m fairly handy and have a truck+trailer so helping move or take down/put up/move something that’s beyond someone’s physical or diy ability.

The way I figure it is if we al do random nice things for each other we can keep VT nice.

Most people don't care as long as you aren't an asshole. If you are an asshole, being an out-of-stater is really the least of the issues. The fact that I am an 'out of stater' never even comes up in day to day interactions.

The hostility only comes from miserable people like those that tend to frequent this sub. I’ve had the same experience with people here out in the wild.

Wow

> Yeah a lot of the anger on reddit is mostly just young vermonters

I wouldn't say it's just the young folk. - Unless 30-40 is considered young these days.

Where you getting this data from?

I got people on the inside of real estate firms calling bullshit on your shit post.

The firm in particular has sold more homes to flat landers than natives - and they have the data to prove it from their brokerage.

> Meanwhile not building pathways to climb the class ladder.

yep and that's the real shitty thing about it all.

some of us grew up here, started to make it, and now that we're ready to go on to the next chapter of our lives - we're being told by latte sipping flatlanders to move out cause we cant afford to buy or rent.

Just follow the golden rule and you're fine. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Peace love and chicken grease man.

>The firm in particular has sold more homes to flat landers than natives - and they have the data to prove it from their brokerage.

I don't actually think that disagrees with what I'm saying, but those people aren't moving here. They're either out-of-state landlords or buying vacation homes.

Here's a breakdown of the data. From https://vtdigger.org/2022/08/12/wildly-unusual-census-shows-explosion-of-migration-into-vermont-in-pandemics-first-year/

>More than 4,800 people moved to Vermont between 2020 and 2021, the highest net migration total the state has reported in at least a decade, according to U.S. Census Bureau population estimates.

4800 people is around .7% of the population.

Rest of data is from https://www.vermontpublic.org/podcast/brave-little-state/2022-02-03/how-can-vermont-solve-its-housing-crisis

>* In 1999, 4.8% of medium-priced homes were sold to corporate buyers,” Joe says. By 2018, that number jumped to 20%.

> * As of a couple years ago, nearly 20% of Vermont’s housing stock was being used seasonally, not year-round, which is a higher percentage than most other states. And that number has likely grown since the pandemic took hold.

That 20% from 2018 is now out of date. This says it's up to 26% now.

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I am making decent money now sir.

I can't imagine the cost of enforcing those restrictions. No one in their right mind would self-report and we don't have the manpower to do inspections. If we have a registry, so that we know which properties are in this category, we can prosecute them for property tax evasion when income is disclosed.

I have an axe to grind against AirBnBers, so I'm more than happy to spend my free time figuring out how to make them suffer financially. Throwing them out doesn't prolong suffering nor does it earn revenue for the state.

I have to give Steve credit: when he's the guy on the route, he is always at my house between 3:30 and 3:45.
The town I work in? Yeah, we don't get mail on Tuesdays.

I could not disagree more. Tax enforcement is famously complicated, while by its very nature short-term rental has to be well advertised and publicly available to be viable as a business. AirBnB et al provide you with a list or properties along with a description. It'd be so much easier to enforce a ban on SFH housing on airbnb and other sites than for each town to audit the property taxes of every house to figure out if that person actually lives there and if so which tier of property taxes they belong to and such. We know rich people will just pay for accountants to try to skirt the rules, which will lead to very complex tax audits of rental empires. It's well documented that the IRS is underfunded and can't enforce the existing tax rules at the federal level.

Kinda? In TN, there's a general vibe of hating it here and wanting to leave it to the asshole rich folks who buy all the houses, and live on the lakes part time. Most people around here, with the exception of a few nicer places, feel like there's nothing this state has to offer except family connections. I don't personally know anyone who wouldn't leave of they could take their families with them. And it runs the political gambit, from literal communists to far right extremists. The only people who like it here anymore are the rich assholes who live on the lakeshore.