How much land is posted in Vermont?

Submitted by Crisp_Strudel t3_z5etkw in vermont

I am from Oregon, and thus I love the outdoors, accidentally stepping foot on someone’s land here is dangerous especially in this part of Oregon I’m in, we have lots and lots of public land, but almost none of it is accessible because even if someone owns a foot of land the timber trail is one they will fence it off and make it impossible to access thousands of acres of public land, it is kinda frustrating and has gotten worse

I have no intention to moving to Vermont so do not worry about a Out of stater jacking up prices, in Oregon out of starters are hated by all and I would never one to be deemed that but I love learning about freedom to roam. In Vermont, how much private land is available for walking or hiking? Is it a lot or is most land posted

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dbqpdqbp t1_ixvqw9f wrote

Compared to western states, Vermont has a large percentage of private land.

However, what makes VT unique is the amount of public access to private lands. Forests in the north are comminly owned by large timber or maple companies but maintain public access easements for hiking, winter access, and permitted hunting. You'll have WMAs or state parks or town forests here and there, but only sporadically.

Similarly, most mountain biking networks traverse private lands with permission. VT has robust legislation to limit landowner liability, and we're lucky enough to have landowners excited to be a part of mountain bike networks.

The south has bug chunks of National Forest where there's tons of access. But that's a small minority of the state's area.

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bignotion t1_ixwjemv wrote

Western states have far more public land than Vermont. It’s not even close

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mycophdstudent t1_ixxkly6 wrote

I think 70% of Nevada is federal lands.

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WildTroutz t1_ixxvmxl wrote

It’s more like 85%. We call it the “poor man’s Alaska”

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mycophdstudent t1_ixz20fd wrote

Thought so. I was originally going to say 90% but tailed it back since I was drawing on faded memory.

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YOurAreWr0ng t1_ixwouem wrote

Percentage per acre. Vermont is smaller than California. God people are dumb.

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bignotion t1_ixwqtqe wrote

“Less than 15 percent of Vermont held by the public, split between federal (7.3 percent), state (6.4 percent), and municipal (0.7 percent) ownership”

“Oregon has a sizable public land base, with approximately 53 percent of its 61 million acres in federal lands, most of it managed by the BLM and the U.S. Forest Service”

God people are dumb

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yeahimsadsowut t1_ixw59s9 wrote

What if a new owner was less than excited about sharing his property with a hiking trail or path? Would he/she just have to put up with it?

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trueg50 t1_ixw71ro wrote

It's their land, their choice what to do with it.

I maintain the ones on my property since I use it, some neighbors might, and I'm fine with the public using it. Someone started making their own bike trail through a sensative area, so I made those signs go away (the orange flags they put up) and they took the hint to use the established trail a short distance away. Other than that we put up "no littering" signs and people stopped tossing dog poop bags and trash so people are generally good.

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dbqpdqbp t1_ixwfedk wrote

Not necessarily. For most recreational mountain bike trails I'm familiar with, access is at the landowner's discretion. Famously, a few years ago, landowners in East Burke revoked access on what had been some of the most popular trails in the state.

On the other hand, I know of some properties that the state sold to timber companies where public hiking access was a condition of the sale. Not sure what sort of legal process would need to happen to get that changed.

And then there are town highways and legal trails. These are public rights of way found on the town highway map that pass through private parcels. If a new landowner wanted to prevent access, they'd need to go through the town selectboard who would bring it to a vote. This seems to happen regularly.

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vttale t1_ixwmgp9 wrote

They can post it, unless there's some other unusual easement or covenant that is at issue.

In addition to what others have said, it should be noted that organizations like the GMC (hiking), VAST (snow machines), and VMBA (mountain bikes) do work with landowners to be good stewards of the land.

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JerryKook t1_iy05usq wrote

I know people that got fed up with needy hikers and kicked the Long Trail off of their property. It really messed up the LT.

The owners were so fed up with strangers asking for favors. Hikers were constantly knocking on their door.

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grnmtnboy0 t1_ixwjrmw wrote

When I was growing up, our land in the NEK was always open to people. That all changed when they started abusing our generosity and left trash all over. The last straw was when one "hunter" actually told a family member to leave because "he was there first". My dad quickly showed him the error of his ways and escorted the jerk off the property. It's been posted since. I would prefer to be more neighborly but I've seen that abused far too often

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ggtffhhhjhg t1_ixyytds wrote

I was going to say most land owners are reasonable unless you encroach on there home or f@ck with their land by polluting, tearing it up or hunting when it’s not allowed.

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grnmtnboy0 t1_ixyztq7 wrote

I like my neighbors and I didn't mind people going through when they behaved but that courtesy seems to have fallen by the wayside. It didn't stop with the posting either: just recently some jerk with out of state plates parked on my camp road so I couldn't drive in. I left as polite a note as I was capable of at the time but he damn near had his pretty, expensive SUV relocated by a logging skidder

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Loudergood t1_ixx9qbp wrote

It's a shame, it's probably even the same moron.

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Mental-Job7947 t1_ixvxsi0 wrote

Even if it's posted. A kind letter to the property owner asking for permission, and maybe some meat from the harvest goes a long way.

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Crisp_Strudel OP t1_ixwb1z5 wrote

I’m not saying I will move to Vermont but I’m 6 months away from getting my degree and let’s say there’s a really good job opportunity there, is there any way for me not to be disliked for being a out of stater? Very very unlikely I will but I’m curious

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SilverKelpie t1_ixwcmvl wrote

Can't speak for all of Vermont since different regions have different flavors, but nobody in real life here has given any hint that they dislike us for being from out of state, and everybody around us knows. (We seem to have been a subject of town gossip before we even got here.) Everybody has been extremely nice, much more so than I'm used to, and folks have shown up at random and lent a hand a number of times.

ETA: How not to be disliked as best as I can tell: "When in Rome" it. You're moving to Vermont. Figure out the basic culture, how to be a Vermonter, and be that. People the world over basically don't want outsiders changing their way of life. Also, just be a nice person who lends a hand when you can. Nobody likes jerks.

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thebeddebate t1_ixzos8y wrote

This sounds very Kingdom like gossip then become best friends. A majority of people we meet are transplants in some nature or another.

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frisbeegopher t1_ixwnsxj wrote

Out of starers get a lot of hate on this sub, not so much in real life. Be a good neighbor and participate in your community and you’ll be fine.

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thunder-cricket t1_ixwzzar wrote

That's been my experience 100%. i'm glad I didn't find this sub before I moved here!

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Mental-Job7947 t1_ixwv680 wrote

One of the worst parts about Vermont is finding a good job. I'm out of state been here for 12 years, 4 in college. Purchased a house 2 years ago.

Do: Embrace everything Vermont has to offer kindly, and people will be more than happy to meet you.

Don't: Try and change the smell of cow shit, gravel roads, ban guns, personal farms, add billboards, shitty corporations, add street lights, and discuss religion.

All that being said, a job opportunity in Burlington Brattleboro or Newport. Will get you 3 very different experiences.

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Crisp_Strudel OP t1_ixwvh7r wrote

The degree I’m getting is in Mechatronics and industrial atomization, and I have been working on semiconductor manufacturing I wonder if Vermont has any jobs in that field, yeah I love guns I’d never change that, Oregon just passed the strictest gun law in the country and it’s kinda crazy. Vermont doesn’t have billboards or street lights?

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Mental-Job7947 t1_ixww2xn wrote

No billboards allowed. Street lights, yes, but out of necessity in town and city limits

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Walruzuma t1_ixz6aj0 wrote

The street light thing is changing rapidly in Chittenden County as morons from away take hold in local government. It's really disgusting.

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Mental-Job7947 t1_ixz8263 wrote

Yeah Chittenden County. You will have that as the population grows. Places like Shelburne Road are deadly to foot and bike traffic, and lighting does help that. We do have a housing crisis, and that will result in development like it or not. Vermomt needs it.

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Walruzuma t1_ixzbb9u wrote

I'll politely yet vigorously disagree with your last sentence.

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Mental-Job7947 t1_iy240bj wrote

Well, you can see how well that kind of attitude is working for Upstate NY. Short-sighted, selfish but polite.

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jlkmb t1_ixxffa7 wrote

https://www.mynbc5.com/article/globalfoundries-funding-chip-production-vermont/41649862

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Crisp_Strudel OP t1_ixxkill wrote

HOLY COW YOURE KIDDING thank you for linking me!!!!

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jlkmb t1_ixxlnol wrote

You're welcome. Get a job and make a donation to your new favorite VT charity.

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Walruzuma t1_ixz6eub wrote

That was the largest semi conductor fab in the world at one point.

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Mental-Job7947 t1_ixwwjqp wrote

You would be working in the Burlington area in that field

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Crisp_Strudel OP t1_ixwyovn wrote

What’s your opinion of That area?

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Mental-Job7947 t1_ixx1w07 wrote

I like it here. I wouldn't mind living 35 to 50 minutes out of town to have more land, privacy, and freedom..but i like diverse food, bars, and events more.

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Mental-Job7947 t1_ixx2ur9 wrote

I lived in Lamoille County for a few years. Lots of land for recreation and outdoor activities. Great, ski mountains, lakes, hunting but not much else.

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PeteDontCare t1_ixwcssw wrote

Been in VT off and on for many years, and also lived in PDX for a while. Over half the population of VT seems to be out-of-staters at this point

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thunder-cricket t1_ixwztxa wrote

I moved here from the dreaded California(!) last year. I love it here and I love all my neighbors and community. I've made some great friends. And I've felt nothing but love and welcome.

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twowheels t1_iy1i7sk wrote

It seems that a lot of my neighbors have some connection to CA, I’ve never felt any hatred for CA where I live. That said, when driving across the country with CA plates I received a lot of unsolicited negative opinions in the various states in between.

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cynnamin_bun t1_ixwkty6 wrote

You can’t make everyone happy I’m sure, but I haven’t encountered anyone who has seemed to be annoyed that I’m not from VT, been here about 3 years. I found that actually people are way friendlier here than MA where I am from.

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somedudevt t1_ixwsy72 wrote

Do no harm. The most basic concept to keep people happy with you. If your looking at a house don’t get in a bidding war with a local family. If you think guns are evil, drop that at the state line. Don’t post your land, find a hobby you like and become active in that community, but don’t be over eager to try to lead/take things over. Don’t complain that Vermont isn’t XYZ place. Don’t drive in the passing lane not passing. When called a flat lander accept that even though your mountains are 3x as tall we are right. Call people from NJ MA NY CT etc flatlanders.

Pretty much just don’t try to change it here.

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K1d6 t1_ixxvmre wrote

Basically be as ignorant as the locals? You can post land if you own it, and maybe stop calling people flatlanders because you sound like idiots. I'm from NH and was called a flatlander. People in VT hate on others from outside the state and then also rely on their tourism. Makes about zero sense.

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TheTowerBard t1_ixz4wsz wrote

Honestly, you should not worry about this. I’m from Vermont and have even been treated like shit and was even threatened once by some asshole because I was in a car with California plates. The car was my mothers, the same woman who raised me in Vermont. She moved to CA came for a visit on a cross country trip and this was her welcome home.

My point here, the people that would treat you negatively for not being from here literally will find any and all reasons to be assholes to others. They are the minority though, and no one likes them.

So please, live your life and live where you want. For most of us, the second you step over the state line, you are welcomed with open arms even if your just here for the weekend.

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OhNoMgn t1_ixya11g wrote

As long as you respect Vermont for what it is and understand the ways in which it differs from a lot of other places, that'll put you miles ahead of many other out-of-staters we get here. It seems to be a theme that folks will move here without knowing what it's really like, and when they realize that they can't get DoorDash in their rural town or go to the store at 11pm or there isn't public transportation, then the complaints start. To take it a step further, if those people have enough money to gain any sort of influence, they begin to want to change things and that's usually where the red line is drawn. Basically, we don't mind out-of-staters in general, but we value our state and our way of life, and we resent it when people come here and bitch about it, or try to make it more like the place they came from, instead of appreciating Vermont for what it is. As long as you're not That Person, you'll be totally fine! Definitely come by for a visit sometime if you're considering moving; while it's hard to totally capture the vibe of a place with just a short visit, it should still give you a fairly good idea. :)

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shamparns t1_ixyt5yb wrote

You’ve already condemned yourself for being an out of stater and you don’t even live here yet. You can’t go through life terrified of being the new guy unless you’re willing to work the same job your entire life in the same town of the same state with the same friends you had since high school.

Being new in a place isn’t inherently wrong and don’t give too much legitimacy to people who may hate you exclusively because they don’t know you yet. People move around, it’s been part of humanity from the beginning. The key is PARTICIPATING as a member of the community, and that’s actually true everywhere. Any club, any group - when you’re the new guy, be kind, listen, and participate. Don’t shun yourself into a corner and be strange. Engage!

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Hell_Camino t1_ixyxqk0 wrote

Don’t go by folks in r/vermont. This forum is very much against outsiders. However, I’ve never seen any of that attitude in real life here.

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ProLicks t1_ixz0a9t wrote

The fact is that you’ll get shit for it from people who are looking for a reason to give you shit, but there’s not always a ton of vitriol behind it. I’d get something like it for being from a different part of the Vermont, were I to encounter a similarly minded person born in the town I moved to almost a decade ago. Tribalism is tribalism.

Practically, this will mean very little to you, particularly if you’re looking at Chittenden County. Chittenden has more transplants and resembles other places a lot more, socially, than most of Vermont, and it’s also where most of the jobs that might bring in someone from all the way out in Oregon are located.

My wife is from New Jersey originally, but always belonged here, even before she moved 20 years ago. If Vermont calls to you, I’m guessing you’ll find a place, too…although I will say that a lot of folks from out west find us nosey, judgmental, and impolite in our directness. And, ya know, being honest, those people probably have a point, but my VT-raised friends who have gone west for any period of time have found west-coast social mores to be more distant, shallow, and impersonal than they’d prefer. See about spending some time out here - especially in the times like right now or late March, when this state is generally considered to be at its least appreciable. If you can find ways to be happy during these times, you’ll be good.

I will give you one piece of advice to avoid raising a Vermonter’s ire, and that would be to avoid the “ya know what you need around here is [insert thing that we actively have resisted]”. As long as you’re asking a question about something we’ll talk your ear off (see: this massive fucking reply), but until a Vermonter personally feels you understand some of their perceived nuance behind some issues, your opinion will be taken as ignorance or out-of-state bullshit. I’ve only ever lived here, but I have a feeling that this is a universal truth that Vermonters just take to an unhealthy and jerkish extreme at times.

Good luck with your move - or not move! Either way, you should come and visit. I LOVE Oregon, and while we can’t match the scale or majesty or your nature, we have a very accessible and beautiful bit of it here. Also, there’s a really similar ethos among the two pretty divergent groups of people (Burlington = Portland, Newport = Baker City, roughly) and if you understand how to respectfully operate in both places the state is really varied and fun to explore no matter where you’re from. Hope to see you around sometime!

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JoeWaubeeka t1_ixx034p wrote

If you're on the western side of Vermont, then the Adirondack state park in NY is very close and there are no issues with private property and it's huge.

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throwaway9384929 t1_ixw7dfb wrote

Sure does, all growing up my dad had posted signs on our land, but added his phone number to them, he more just wanted to know who was walking around our woods than actually keeping people out

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amoebashephard t1_ixw83w3 wrote

Vermont also has very strong common law River access, so if your property is riverfront it's very difficult to post it.

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Confused_Fangirl t1_ixx2dak wrote

Speaking on behalf of my family, and some of their own personal experiences, I think if you are able to find and speak with the land owner, and make it known that you’re only interested in hiking vs. hanging out & having illegal underaged drinking parties, there is a good chance they‘ll be willing to come to an agreement, and allow you to use their property.

It’s the people that drive their vehicles onto other peoples land without permission, steal, and engage in other inappropriate behavior that oftentimes causes landowners to post their land.

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happyonthehill802 t1_ixvpgjp wrote

Very little posted land, and no trespassing laws unless posted. Most land that is posted is some rich out of stater that doesnt like hunting.

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Complete-Shake-8050 t1_ixvtgx2 wrote

It’s always good to ask permission though if you’re on private property, especially since there are a lot of hunters and it’s always good for the landowner to know who is on their land. I’ve lived in VT my whole life and always asked permission for access to unposted property, but I have noticed since owning property it isn’t the case for all hunters/people.

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fiddlersgreen2021 t1_ixw7o5a wrote

This, it’s very easy to find out who owns property via the state’s parcel viewer online. I don’t post my property, but if I found someone setting up tree stands with out having the decency to ask permission or open a dialogue first, you can bet I’m asking them to leave. I’d say it’s that kind of scenario that gets land posted more often than not.

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happyonthehill802 t1_ixwkeur wrote

Im not telling anyone to just go hunt someones land without asking. In my town it seems as though property sells, and immediately gets posted...cant say i know the back story on all of those scenarios.

As far as hiking, i personally wouldnt expect someone to ask me if they wanted to hike up to the top of my mountain and enjoy the view. Have at it. If you want to park in my driveway, i would expect you to ask.

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Outrageous-Outside61 t1_ixwosqu wrote

For sure it is, unless your tracking and happen to pass through multiple owners. As for the stands, permissions required.

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Amyarchy t1_ixwh7yd wrote

Our land is posted and I can assure you we're not rich out of staters, but we would like to be able to actually walk around in our woods without fear of being shot. There's LOADS of land near here open to hunting, my little bit of space doesn't have to be open to everyone.

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happyonthehill802 t1_ixwjsos wrote

This isnt an attack on people who post their land...your choice. My stance on it is that if you post your land, i better not find you walking on mine. Vermont is full of beautiful mountaintops, a lot of them private property. As someone who owns such property, i feel it would be very selfish to post that and not let others enjoy. As i enjoy thousands of acres in my town (respectfully) without permission.

Side note: Hunters wont just shoot you, and you should wear orange during hunting season regardless of how posted your land is. Most respectful hunters will ask before parking and hunting on your land, and certainly before setting up a tree stand.

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Amyarchy t1_ixwo9py wrote

You certainly seem hostile to people who post. That's your right, but own it.

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somedudevt t1_ixws4h0 wrote

Posting is selfish in Vermont, and not in the traditions of our state. That’s the reality. Our history of public access to private lands go back to our founding 250 years ago. Hostility toward people who post is not a bad thing here, as it’s a cultural shift away from what has historically made Vermont what it is.

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codeQueen t1_ixxpgdw wrote

Wanting to be able to be safe on your own land is not selfish. Thinking you have the right to walk around and shoot shit on other peoples' property is.

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somedudevt t1_ixyynnw wrote

No it’s being a traditional Vermonter. This stuff is LITTERALLY written into the state constitution. So posting is as I said a selfish action that goes against what it means to be a Vermonter. Also posting unless you have a GIANT plot of land isn’t exactly protecting you from the irrational fear of a hunter. A .308 round can travel over 1000 yards. Take a look at a map and circle 1000 yards from your living room. Do you own all that? And is it posted? If not posting isn’t increasing your safety. Also hunting accidents are extremely rare.

The most recent stats I can find are from NY state showing that incidents 1 incident per 100,000 hunters, and showed that all incidents were among hunters not non hunters for the year in the article. It is exceedingly rare (not never) for a person who is not involved in hunting to be involved in a hunting related accident. So the fear that it will happen to you, and the action to post land to avoid it, is irrational and not based on an actual threat/risk. Your risk of a drunk driver visiting your bedroom with their pickup truck at night are higher than a hunter shooting you while hunting.

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Amyarchy t1_ixyvv6s wrote

I don't want random strangers with guns wandering around my yard/woods. That's not selfish. There aren't many spots on our land where you're not fairly close to a home. It's not appropriate.

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Buujabuu t1_ixwvw2m wrote

Dude no one cares that you’re out of state so long as you don’t come in flashing money, hoarding resources, or expecting to turn your county red.

Same goes for any state (variable on politics)

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[deleted] t1_ixww7d2 wrote

[deleted]

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Walruzuma t1_ixz71e5 wrote

That, in and of itself, tells me you wouldn't 'get it' here.

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Corey307 t1_ixz3omx wrote

Not sure why you got downvoted, I had the same attitude when I first moved here. I decided not to vote on any local issues for the first few years because I really don’t know what the state needs yet and because I don’t just vote for what I want but what I think will benefit most people.

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Vermontbuilder t1_ixyotnb wrote

Our farm has never been posted and never will be. We’ve had zero problems with keeping our land open. Hunters are very respectful and foragers typically ask. Vermont has always been an open land state and I hope it can remain so. Newcomers knee jerk reaction to post their properties is a worrisome trend.

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Argghc t1_iy5p3rc wrote

Land that my great grandfather hunted, through my grandfather through me was sold after the landowner passed last winter. It was just posted this past Saturday. My cousin is headed up to talk to him as my brother and I both live out of state. (Also my Dad is a landowner there so this is one of the adjacent properties but my Dad cannot hunt anymore). Hasn’t ever been posted in over 100 years and the house was built up there in 2002.

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Crushproofx t1_ixvurnd wrote

A lot of people wont mind if you’re just passing through (if the area is popular for recreation), because its pretty common for hunters to walk through land in certain areas, but goes without saying, leave immediately when asked and you usually will not run into issues.

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zombienutz1 t1_ixvnoa7 wrote

I mean there are tons and tons of hiking areas that are available to the public. They are typically land trusts meant for that purpose and are well marked since the all typically run up against posted property. The state also has plenty of state parks with camping and hiking access.

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bignotion t1_ixwj2vi wrote

I can’t answer your question, but, there are 62 million acres of state land in Oregon, all of it open to public use - 10 times the size of the entire state of Vermont.

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Crisp_Strudel OP t1_ixwupzc wrote

Oregon does have a ton it’s such a blessing, a lot of it is in the desert tho which is actually pretty cool, a lot of the forests are burned down , and if it’s not burned it’s logged so it’s kinda hard to find like a nice peaceful spot maybe I’m just lazy and haven’t been looking hard enough

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the_mad_mycologist t1_ixxdlw6 wrote

Depends what part of VT you are in, judging by the responses here. I'm in southern VT and most of the private land I come across is posted. I also post my land, but that's because Ive had numerous folks (particularly hunters) coming onto my property behaving recklessly, leaving garbage behind, and being generally disrespectful. But the green mountain national forest is vast and beautiful.

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yeseweserft123 t1_ixy0wfn wrote

Like most have said, it depends on area. I will say though that even posted land can be explored if you’re respectful. I can’t speak for all of Vermont but in my area as long as you aren’t hunting or leaving trash most people don’t care if you explore posted property.

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thisoneisnotasbad t1_ixvq8dz wrote

Sorry man, only numbers I am able to find are 10 years old.

https://www.benningtonbanner.com/local-news/amount-of-posted-land-increasing-in-vermont/article_4f5e6a63-bfbb-5aea-a0ae-2927fc2deb3f.html

You could do some extrapolation but it would probably not be accurate. Hopefully someone has the answer as it is an interesting question. Also, I think there is a difference between no hunting posting and no trespassing posting.

The government owns a fair chunk. > Vermont by the numbers > – Land owned by federal government: 7.8% (465,888 of 5.9 million acres) > – Land owned by agency: FS (88.1%), FWS (7.3%), DOD (2.4%), NPS (2.1%) > – Percent change since 1990: +34.4%

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dbqpdqbp t1_ixw0rp9 wrote

These are interesting stats, thanks for sharing. Just note that you'll need to add state lands to that. The statistics seem only to refer to federally owned land.

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Yourbubblestink t1_ixx03cn wrote

Most land is posted. It’s much much smaller in New England.

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murrly t1_ixx5zsu wrote

I have no problem with people posting their land, but if it is 'land use' (which means lower taxes) it shouldn't be allowed to be posted at all.

If you post your land you should have to pay full property tax.

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Crisp_Strudel OP t1_ixx7ovf wrote

If you don’t post your land you pay less? THATS SO COOL

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the_mad_mycologist t1_ixxd3e6 wrote

It's a bit more complicated than that. Look up Vermont's "Current Use" program. Other states, at least in the NE USA, have similar programs

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mmeadvt t1_ixwoxwu wrote

Way too much! But lots of public land and most posted land people don't mind you using if you just ask and are respectful.

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NonDeterministiK t1_ixwt10t wrote

Vermont is not generally a "get off my land" type of place like I've seen elsewhere. Though of course people will not tolerate anyone trashing or abusing their property, I think there is a sense that it is somewhat selfish/uncivil to post one's property. Share the beauty, and others will do likewise.

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sheepofdarkness t1_ixzb40z wrote

Piggybacking onto your post, I wonder how folks feel about land being posted and fenced for livestock. We are looking to move to VT and plan on bringing our fiber farm with us. We have to have rather substantial fences to contain the sheep and livestock guardian dogs, so I don't know if posting would really be necessary if the pastures were fenced. Would people really hate us if we fenced open pastures for livestock?

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shaaruken t1_ixynohb wrote

#stolen lands

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