[deleted]
Comments
sicknutley t1_ixltbtv wrote
Ask for a payment plan
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixltf2g wrote
Was not aware I could do that. Any particular company you like more than others?
meinblown t1_ixlylxa wrote
The closest one.
Wertyui09070 t1_ixmgl33 wrote
They don't all offer one and some offer you terms for the winter months or they stretch it over a year.
I was quoted 750 a month starting in September for 5$/ a gallon heating oil, ending in May. Last year we paid 250 a month for the year.
Again, these prices are crazy but perhaps a new normal, so you're going to get a lot of smartass answers.
Find a kerosene buying group in your area is a piece of advice I haven't followed yet but plan to as I'm close to needing another delivery.
If you want help from the state, fill out the online app. Be aware that if you need to call, it'll be a 2 hour wait at least, most days. I've been 75th, 49th, and 86th in line the last three times I had questions.
CTdadof5 t1_ixlw5qm wrote
There is assistance for VT home heating bills that you might qualify for. Worth understanding the requirements.
merightno t1_ixluer4 wrote
Our oil company said you are not alone and many families can't afford to fill their tanks this year and in that case they have like a red gas can with a handle that they have to drive to the gas station and get 5 or 10 gallons at a time from a pump. I think he said instead of heating oil from them people can use diesel fuel in their oil tank-- it's the same thing. I'm not sure about where to get kerosene but there's got to be a place you can pump it by the gallon like that.
It's a super inefficient way to get it but if you can't afford to fill your tank you can't afford to fill your tank. It's going to be a really hard winter financially for many people.
Legitimate_Proof t1_ixlxohf wrote
It's crazy that diesel, which has road taxes on it, is cheaper now than fuel oil, which doesn't.
Ok-Eggplant-1649 t1_ixlypzh wrote
It's actually off-road diesel so less expensive.
Legitimate_Proof t1_ixlzxv4 wrote
Oh that makes more sense. I was thinking on-road since the comment is about getting it from a gas station, but yeah some have off-road tanks.
NessunAbilita t1_ixm2k06 wrote
I’ve saved my procrastinating ass a dozen times with diesel from Cumby
liamvt21 t1_ixm17d0 wrote
If their oil tank is outside off-road diesel may gel up, they make additives to prevent this but would need to pour it in each fill.
fiddlersgreen2021 t1_ixm2e4r wrote
One container of anti gel generally treats 250 or so gallons, a little splash in the jerry can before you fill it should do it.
zkentvt t1_ixoefja wrote
I did this for an entire winter once. 4 cans at a time. The station near me sold the off-road diesel and there was almost always at least one other person there doing the same thing.
Also, learn to restart the burner or pilot light yourself. They will charge you to restart If it runs out. YouTube it.
mountainofclay t1_ixnegfj wrote
Yeah but doesn’t diesel meant for vehicles have an extra tax on it that makes it more expensive? Ok I guess in a pinch but you’d wind up spending more, no?
merightno t1_ixnoyvz wrote
Yes it is a more expensive way to get heating oil for your tank but if people can't afford the minimum delivery (like 100 gallons) they have no choice.
mountainofclay t1_ixnet6q wrote
I just learned about the off rode thing, duh.
Cranky_Yankee t1_ixlvp96 wrote
Buddy, I hate to tell you this but, at least in New Hampshire, the statewide average is $7.27 / gallon. In other words, you’re getting a good deal. Try googling “kerosene prices near me” to see what the average price is in your area. Also try googling “Vermont fuel assistance 2022” ; they may help depending on your family size and your income. Good luck.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixlw34t wrote
It's only $7 a gallon IF you buy more than 125 gallons otherwise it's closer to your mentioned price. The minimum is 100 gallons which is all I can possibly afford
Loudergood t1_ixntgou wrote
Next summer look into prebuys and locking in your price. I can't say how that works out for your type of fuel but I'm saving multiple dollars a gallon on propane right now.
BigEnd3 t1_ixm22sr wrote
The HVAC guys must be making a killing putting in propane furnaces.
trueg50 t1_ixmd49j wrote
Propane isn't much better. Price didn't go up as dramatically as other fuels, by our pricing is still $3 a gallon and will likely go up a bit through the winter.
I'm very glad we heat as much as possible with wood.
Loudergood t1_ixntjnv wrote
Prebuys in the summer is key.
montpelier28 t1_ixx8k83 wrote
And propane is sales taxed, believe it or not. Makes me so angry even tho I no longer use it. And if you only use it to cook it's even more per gallon.
gumptionary t1_ixluv23 wrote
You most likely don’t need kerosene. They’ll tell you to get kerosene to prevent the oil from gelling up, but I’ve had an outside tank for 5+ winters with no problems using heating oil and an anti-gelling additive like this https://powerservice.com/psp_product/diesel-fuel-supplement-cetane-boost/
Not that heating oil is cheap, but it’s less than kerosene
Umbert360 t1_ixm7lro wrote
The delivery guy once told me that’s all they do is put additive in when they fill, but they tack on a certain amount per gallon that ends up being way more than if you just bought the additive and regular oil. He showed me the jug and recommended I just do it myself
cpujockey t1_ixmalqf wrote
Off-road diesel works fine. I've done it.
Get yourself a few cans that will ONLY be used for diesel.
The difference between diesel and kerosene is taxes.
Vermonstrosity t1_ixm4i78 wrote
I know this isn’t what you asked. But it is something that helped me in the long run.
We installed a wood burning stove a while back. For a small house (not sure your house SF) you can get through the winter with 3-4 cords of wood. They are about $325 per green cord right now. You do need to order well in advance. But it’s much less expensive than heating oil, kerosene, or propane. Or you can just do it to reduce your oil bill as a supportive heat system. Also there is cost to install. But if you are in it for the long haul, it’s a good way to reduce your exposure to the heating oil volatility.
Sometimes people have land too (which we are fortunate enough to have) and I can split my own, as time permits. Could be another option to do your own on your land or if you have a great neighbor.
Umbert360 t1_ixm8qs1 wrote
We bought our house a few years ago and the previous owners installed a Yukon Husky furnace. It’s a combo oil/ wood furnace and it’s amazing. It’s forced hot air so it has a blower fan, and is hooked to a thermostat. When you have the time, you keep a fire going in the fire box and it sends the heat to all the registers in the house. If there’s no fire or it drops below a certain temp, the oil kicks on automatically and keeps it at the set temp. We’ve had to open windows when it really gets going
Vermonstrosity t1_ixm99no wrote
Cool! I’ve never heard of that combo system!
InvisibleGrbgTrckJry t1_ixmh1ci wrote
That's a cool bit o kit!
InvisibleGrbgTrckJry t1_ixmj1ev wrote
We had a similar solution in Afghanistan. Winters in the mountains there are...well, bad, and the HVAC units for our huts were notoriously ill-tempered (how else were those maintenance contractors gonna get paid? 🙄). So we bought an ancient British-made wood/coal stove off one of the locals when their headman died and his house needed to be demolished. I had the engineers rig it up with a vent fan and bam: no heating problems all winter. Popped a pinch of C4 and a log in there when the HVAC failed and we stayed toasty enough to have to douse it once in a while. Say what you want about Victorian England, but those assholes knew how to make a heater!
teachlikeascientist t1_ixq05bu wrote
There is some tax benefits to buying wood stoves as well which reduce the cost.
Love2much472 t1_ixm796k wrote
I’ve lived here my whole life , when I was younger my family was extremely poor, and I don’t ever remember us filling our tank completely. One day our cement pad under the tank was no longer up to code and we could no longer get deliveries at all of any size, even if we scraped up enough for the 100+ gallon minimum.
If we did buy kerosene, we filled up 5 gallon canisters at the store and hand poured it in, usually 20 gallons at a time. When that wasn’t an option, we invested in a space heater, and it amazing and kept our living room at a livable temperature. Yes, it’s very inconvenient that it’s one room, but during cold snaps it is a savior. If you can’t get fuel assistance , I do recommend a space heater, but never ever leave it on when you aren’t home. Best of luck!
bobcat1911 t1_ixm490w wrote
Get a plastic barrel and buy off road diesel, it's way cheaper because you're not paying the tax. And it's the same fuel you are buying.
Jolly_Weather_1624 t1_ixmlw2y wrote
If it’s out in the cold put some anti gelling in it and it’s the same as kerosene
bobcat1911 t1_ixnfex0 wrote
But your still paying tax on it.
Jolly_Weather_1624 t1_ixni5es wrote
Yeah tax on the anti gelling agent I guess. Didn’t know this sub was so libertarian
bobcat1911 t1_ixntanu wrote
I'm not referring to sales tax on anti-jelling additive, I'm referring to the tax on #2 heating fuel, off road diesel isn't taxed, so it's much cheaper.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixuf93c wrote
Only $1 cheaper
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm4hx3 wrote
🤔 that's an idea
nogzila t1_ixlw65l wrote
I had the same issue when I first moved to Vermont because I lived with n the south and we normally just have central heat and air and no worries.
We had to get used to getting ready for winter , making sure the fuel tank was filled and checking the level on the fuel tank . You only run out once before you figure out fuck that I need to be on point with this because it takes them 3-4 days to get to you.
On the plus side endless hot water as long as you don’t run out of fuel .
It’s a really bad time for this type of heat also with the increases in kerosene costs and such .
I have read a lot of people get central heat and air now up there and just turn on the alternate heat when it gets really cold.
JimTheJerseyGuy t1_ixlxxyb wrote
If you can’t afford a full tank, look at ways to try and reduce what you are using. Setting back thermostats is an obvious first but there are plenty of ways (and products) to mitigate heat loss and draft infiltration that might be cheaper in the long run. Just don’t let your pipes freeze!
whaletacochamp t1_ixly17f wrote
Unfortunately you will find that the prices are pretty much the same across the board, and you have only a few options specific to your area. Kerosene is also less popular these days so that adds another level of complexity.
I would figure out who delivers to your area then call and ask about pricing, price lock, and budget programs. It will likely come down to whoever has the best budget/price lock program.
Another consideration is who owns your tank. We have propane and Corse fuels owns the tanks, so switching to another provider wouldn’t be as easy likely.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixlzqsa wrote
I own my tanks on homestead and was told by one company that since tank is outdoors I am required to run kerosene.
vtddy t1_ixohsbh wrote
That is a scam oil companies run. You can use regular home heating oil and add anti-gel additives to it.
notadaleknoreally t1_ixoq7bz wrote
Diesel truck tanks are outside.
purplekeyboard92 t1_ixmiqna wrote
Call around and see if any companies offer a blended fuel. It's half #2 and half kero so it's cheaper but doesn't gel/freeze either
lindrios t1_ixm9ujd wrote
If it comes down to the absolute worst case scenario... Off-Road Diesel is your best bet.
Fill a jerry can with what ever you can afford, and repeat as necessary.
The taxes are much lower, and the sulphur content is lower by several thousand PPM as well.
In theory, the lower sulphur content would also make the furnace more efficient
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixmhot2 wrote
A market nearby had a blend of diesel and kerosene. I'm out the woods now and safe. Thank you everyone that was helpful I learned alot about furnaces
sugarplummed t1_ixvl2we wrote
Thanks for posting. We are moving to VT in a year or so and any real life info is helpful
vtddy t1_ixohgnc wrote
It's not lower in sulphur content. It is the same exact fuel as on-road diesel. It is just dyed red. No difference in diesel, off road, or #2heating oil other than the color
lindrios t1_ixos16k wrote
I was looking at some dated reg, you're correct. Sorry about that.
MFDVT t1_ixlzavk wrote
You might qualify for an affordable loan to get heat pumps installed too. Worth a call to your credit union.
Gilashot t1_ixn2is5 wrote
Everyone in VT on fuel heat needs to get heat pumps! Seriously. Good ones work down to -22 and cost way less than half as much as oil to heat all winter. Screw the oil companies.
mountainofclay t1_ixngfns wrote
Yeah I hear they work great until the power goes off during a blizzard. Wood is the way.
zarnov t1_ixnjcnw wrote
Definitely wood is great, but if no one is home during the day, a heat pump can keep the temperature reasonable until someone can get the woodstove fired up. This is how we do it, anyway...
mountainofclay t1_ixowbdv wrote
I agree that multiple options are the way to go if possible.
Gilashot t1_ixnrpnp wrote
Wood is the way for some people. It’s also heavy, dirty, and a polluter.
I can run a 1k generator for a few hours to run my heat on the 2 days a year I lose power.
mountainofclay t1_ixovz6f wrote
Yeah if you live in the city it may not be the way but as far as it polluting keep in mind that modern wood stoves burn cleaner and heating with wood is considered carbon neutral, in theory anyway. https://www.chimneysolutions.com/blog/ecofriendly-wood-burning/ Still it is more labor intensive. So is walking or jogging over automobile but people still pay money to run on a treadmill. Crazy.
Gilashot t1_ixowx6s wrote
Ha, true!
teachlikeascientist t1_ixq0jrd wrote
The whole process of wood burning is actually carbon negative.
Gilashot t1_ixq3x0y wrote
It’s not. The EPA wrongly made a narrow statement stating that’s it’s neutral, but everyone from the Smithsonian to the Yale School of Forestry will say otherwise.
Biomass is neutral on a long term scale (millennia) but not in human terms.
I’m an arborist and this year cleared 1/2 an acre for a customers firewood use. He’ll burn it all over the next few winters, and that clearing will just be covered by ferns and brambles for a decade. That’s a huge dump of stored carbon going into the atmosphere. How’s that carbon negative?
mountainofclay t1_ixq8qgi wrote
I’ve read that on average, at least in my climate, that an acre of land will grow a cord of wood per year. I know my land has more trees now than when I bought it. It’s grown faster than I can use it. I realize not everyone has the luxury of owning their own wood lot and not all climates can support that. I also know that if not properly managed it can be depleted. But it seems crazy not to use it though, especially in Vermont which currently has more trees than ever.
Gilashot t1_ixqeo11 wrote
Good point, and we're getting into interesting numbers here. About 46% of VT electricity comes from hydro. Hydro has it's own issues, but keeping it in the carbon conversation, it's pretty low.
At 17 degrees I'm getting about 12K BTU per kW. 6500 of that comes from non-hydro electricity. So...6500 BTU per kW of "carbon producing" electricity.
I have no idea how much carbon is released to create the 1 kw of electricity, to produce my 6500 BTU. I also don't know how much carbon is released while burning wood to create 6500 BTU. Someone should do a thesis on this.
I'm going to go drive my 6 cylinder 4Runner to Home Depot this morning and buy some insulation to help reduce my carbon footprint from heating my home. Now it's really complicated!
mountainofclay t1_ixuiyx4 wrote
The amount of carbon released to burn 6500 btu’s is zero if you consider the other side of the equation which is that the tree will be replaced with another tree. That’s what a renewable resource is. Of course you have the gas in the chainsaw and the trucking you need to consider but nothing is free I guess. Finite resource vs. a renewable resource. It’s not perfect but it’s better than sending dollars to Saudi Arabia I guess.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixn65rx wrote
I'll have to Google heat pumps
zarnov t1_ixnjxkc wrote
Look into it! They are super efficient and, bonus, you can cool with it in the summer.
carbonpenguin t1_ixnciwt wrote
Second this. The new ones can handle Vermont winters, and there are some big rebates/incentives both from the state and now the feds thanks to the Inflation Reduction Act.
ChallengerShaker2014 t1_ixnz77v wrote
Can't afford 100 gallons of fuel, you want them to buy a heat pump? You must be the type that says if you can't afford $5 a gallon gas, just buy an electric car. Nice fantasy but to most working people, just a pipe dream.
Gilashot t1_ixo887m wrote
Mine was $2k and then I got $1200 in state rebates so $800 total. It’s not a pipe dream to working people it’s just simple math and forethought. They literally pay for themselves in one heating season.
Looking at your Reddit profile, you probably live in Burlington and spend all of your time watching football and playing video games. Stay in your lane and let the Vermonters talk child!
ChallengerShaker2014 t1_ixou9ar wrote
Don't live in Burlington, I like football and video games. I am not gonna be bothered to stalk your post history cuz I could give a fuck less what your hobbies are.
So 2k, what model? Send a link. Be helpful not a douche. You installed it yourself? I know people in the HVAC world and they are booked out pretty far and are having trouble even getting things like heat pumps. Maybe it is just them. Serious, I would love to see your 2k heat pump that will work in VT winters.
vtddy t1_ixoh1ol wrote
You don't need kerosene. The only reason the oil company tells you that is because it is an outside tank, I'm assuming, and kerosene won't gel up when it gets cold. What they won't tell you is, you don't need kerosene. That's right. Shocker. You can use regular home heating oil and just add a bottle of diesel fuel anti-gel in your tank to keep it from gelling up. Did this for twenty years, never a problem.
alwaysrm4hope t1_ixm9wvl wrote
Also, is there a shoulder season for kerosene? I know propane is cheaper earlier in year, summer/fall. Too late to help you this year, if so, but could save $$$ next
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixn8mdy wrote
Ok so I was able to get a mixed blend from my local market until I find an oil company to fill it up. Just under 17 gallons $109. Got us some heat and hot water for a few days.
CorrectFall6257 t1_ixoo7xg wrote
Have you called Butlers in Barton? I get my heating oil from Irving in Littleton as part of Hilltop buyers group. It's only Propane & Heating oil but Keith negotiates and set up program. $5 to join if you are a veteran. You can link an Irving rewards card to it for gas savings as well.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixp7enh wrote
This is who the gas station clerk recommended
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixufgt7 wrote
Having trouble finding this place on Google 😔
grnmtnboy0 t1_ixltota wrote
You need kerosene? Usually heating oil is what you want and it's a bit less expensive.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixltr3o wrote
My tank is outdoors so yes, kerosene.
grnmtnboy0 t1_ixlzwf1 wrote
You might be able to get away with a mix of kerosene and oil. Talk to a furnace tech (not the oil man!) and see what he says. Good luck!
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm0i6f wrote
Furnace tech. Got it.
grnmtnboy0 t1_ixm5dq3 wrote
Yeah, never ask the guy trying to sell you the oil unless you know you can trust him
lindrios t1_ixmaugo wrote
you can safely add anti-gel additives to outdoor tank negating the need for the expensive kerosene.
Try off road diesel with an anti gel additive.
Sulphur content is much lower as well.
[deleted] OP t1_ixlu85d wrote
[deleted]
Hanginon t1_ixlxq11 wrote
I've had kerosene heat for almost 2 decades now. A friend in New Hampshire also uses kerosene, it's not as uncommon as is sometimes believed. ¯\_( ͡❛ ͜ʖ ͡❛)_/¯
merightno t1_ixlymdi wrote
I'm actually learning a lot on this thread. It turns out that "oil" furnaces can be run with either kerosene or oil and it just depends on where the tank is kept which you use.
Hanginon t1_ixm88g7 wrote
There are some other important differences in the way they burn, mostly that kerosene burns hotter. and cleaner than fuel oil so the equipment has to be built to handle that higher flame and heat box heat.
Heating oil/#2 fuel oil is that same as diesel fuel used in vehicles but without the road tax applied. Fuel oil will be dyed red for identification while diesel will not be and will have a yellow/green tint to it.
Kerosene costs more but also give off more heat per unit. You may be paying more per gallon but it can be negated by more heat per gallon.
The different fuels are similar but not completely interchangeable, But it is a good idea to talk to a burner specialist to know the specifics of your equipment. Ran out of heating oil and picked up 10 gallons of diesel to get your through until the next delivery? You're probably going to be fine, but "probably" isn't always worth the potential risk(s) so it's good to actually know.
pretentiousignoramus t1_ixluder wrote
Isn't that what all heating oil is? Just died red because it isn't taxed like diesel?
merightno t1_ixlutqc wrote
You probably shouldn't joke, You're going to confuse the new people, and me. Heating is confusing in Vermont!
In case you're not joking, and I am by far no expert but there's heating oil, there's kerosene, and there's propane and those three are distinctly different from each other.
pretentiousignoramus t1_ixly4gw wrote
I assure you it's genuine ignorance. I thought that heating oil is basically diesel fuel. Diesel is basically kerosene. I think they're all very similar but have slightly different additives. Jet fuel is almost straight kerosene.
mojitz t1_ixm27ml wrote
Yeah I knew someone who would siphon heating oil out of their tank to run their truck because it was cheaper. Hella illegal, but apparently it worked.
pretentiousignoramus t1_ixm5d4n wrote
I think that technically authorities can charge you with tax evasion.
lindrios t1_ixmaif7 wrote
If the truck was newer than 2007 and he used more than 1 gallon of fuel you can "technically" get jail time for a litany of tax and environmental crimes
Possibly-deranged t1_ixlwvmz wrote
Most providers only go a few towns over due to shipping costs. Call around whomever is nearby and get costs.
Sites like this list prices, unfortunately none for Vermont, but give you a general idea if you're being scalped or not https://www.newenglandoil.com/newhampshire/zone1.asp?x=1
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm1h9i wrote
Listen guys. I get the whole smart ass comments I make them too here and there its great to have a sense of humor but I'm not stupid ok? It's just I've always lived in basic rustic camps that are not like your typical fancy homes. I enjoy off grid living and it's peacefulness. That is why I'm asking these questions because having this oil heating system is fancy to me and new.
gingerkid_420 t1_ixm8quk wrote
How did you heat your house in the past?
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixug5wu wrote
With sunlight 24/7 in the summer, we bust our asses every day all day and night chopping wood and storing food for the winter to come. So to answer your question, wood stoves.
HiruViking t1_ixn4jnd wrote
Have you looked at Vheat by VSECU? https://www.vsecu.com/personal/home-heating/fuel-buying-program/
Tall_Palpitation_327 t1_ixmfe7z wrote
Dont take the chance. My oil froze up with antifreeze additive in it during the cold stretch years ago.I have an outdoor tank and now run kerosene strictly.
Yes i just paid 7.09 a gallon for 100 gallons. 😔
SmoothSlavperator t1_ixmg66c wrote
The problem with heating assistance is you have to be flat ass broke before you qualify. We get the privilege of paying into it and ot being allowed to get anything out of it.
That being said you can run off road diesel or even regular diesel. Diesel doesn't gel until like 15 degrees...plus mixed with any residual kerosene should lower that temp even more. You can add anti gel if you want an added layer of safety. You also get more heat per gal out of densely than you do kerosene so not only is it cheaper, a gallon goes farther.
Another alternative is to score any kind of fat and transester it into biodeisel. It's not hard but you'll need a source of methanol and lye. Any kind of fat will work. SOYLENT GREEN!
Thirdly, depending on your home, you can score cheap wood stoves on Facebook marketplace for cheap/free. You'll just need to figure out a chimney. A wood stove for supplemental heat goes a loooong way. It's Vermont. Wood is free. Even if you spent a few hundred to get set up the thing will pay for itself in a month.
Edit: a word
circlresearch t1_ixn8ekj wrote
If you’re a homeowner, and have the space (and money), consider Dandelion geothermal systems which have low costs (for geothermal) and can amortize it.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixn8tjy wrote
If I had the money I would just pay the oil company the thousand something dollars to fill my tank
OutrageousHat6524 t1_ixnbti7 wrote
OutrageousHat6524 t1_ixnbv5g wrote
pandemic relief, but it may help ^
zarnov t1_ixnl590 wrote
Possibly consider joining one of the co-ops? I used to use Hilltop Energy Buyer's group. There's also Energy Co-op of Vermont and probably others.
tvince1172 t1_ixnzzmv wrote
Sounds like you might think long before jumping into new situations. HEAP...check it out!
Hanginon t1_ixly0tx wrote
LPT; If you're requesting a service or a business recommendation give a region/locality, as very few businesses cover the entire state. ¯\_( ͡❛ ͜ʖ ͡❛)_/¯
[deleted] OP t1_ixlztm5 wrote
[deleted]
wholeWheatButterfly t1_ixlymw9 wrote
I have not shopped around so I can't compare to others, but I use Johnson Energy and have been happy with their customer service and timeliness - I call when I need oil and they usually do it within a day or two.
NessunAbilita t1_ixm2qrh wrote
I just bought oil from Marcells in West Rutland for just over $5/gallon. I think it was for a full tank though.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm2xjl wrote
Yeah I was told the more you get the cheaper price is.
[deleted] OP t1_ixm4jby wrote
As they run out of expensive oil the price will come down
igneousigneous t1_ixm6s8w wrote
Abba fuels has been outstanding for us. Donno the current price (heads up, some fuel oil companies will let you pre-buy your oil at summer rates etc.)
Constant-Dot5760 t1_ixm8drd wrote
https://www.cheapestoil.com/heating-oil-prices/vermont
- I have no affiliations with the site or the companies thereon
- If these are the low oil prices maybe they sell kerosene as well
Good luck. I'll be shopping soon too. F*ck.
aisle_seat_chad t1_ixmgox5 wrote
Drum of red diesel and a hand pump would be alot cheaper. Now have fun unloading your full drum out of the truck.
vtddy t1_ixoh4s9 wrote
You use a pump
gregra193 t1_ixoxp93 wrote
I assume you have an outdoor oil tank? Can you use “trailer mix” instead? I think it’s a mixture of Kerosene and Heating Oil.
How large is the space you’re looking to heat? Does your electric company offer financing for heat pumps?
Anxious-Captain737 t1_ixpjimq wrote
this is very sad
Vermont_Dude t1_ixq14wq wrote
wood stove and a chainsaw
thisoneisnotasbad t1_ixq8c7l wrote
There is something inherently broken with the system when normal people need to ask for assistance to not freeze. I saw kerosene was $7 at the pump a couple days ago and shook my head. It is not like a climate like VT has much other choice than to heat in the winter and labor shortages and costs make transition to other heating sources extremely difficult for all but the upper middle class.
Sorry for the rant.
montpelier28 t1_ixsp9b7 wrote
feel your pain we used to burn kerosene be sure to check out help from the State
FourteenthCylon t1_ixszawy wrote
Wow. $7 a gallon? I just moved down here from Alaska, where it gets even colder than Vermont and where we also use a lot of heating oil. NOBODY there uses kerosene. Everything is either #1 or #2 heating oil, mostly #2, which is basically the same as highway diesel only without the tax. It burns just fine in a home furnace, and I certainly never had any problems with it, even at 25 below. Now that I'm here I'm going to get some oil drums to put in the back of my truck and fill with red diesel. I can drive up next to my house and siphon them into the home tank.
CorrectFall6257 t1_iy5vcg3 wrote
Last one. I just took pictures out of the most recent chronicle newspaper I get. Hope this helps.
Temporary-Will-257 t1_ixpc9rw wrote
I'm truly sorry that this happened to you my parents are in a similar situation up there. Unfortunately those who voted for the biden administration brought this upon us
illusivealchemist t1_ixyuply wrote
Lmao iTs bIDeNs fAuLt
Temporary-Will-257 t1_iy0mfbw wrote
The Biden Administration made it perfectly clear on day one that were migrating away from fossil fuels and going to alternative energy sources no matter how much it hurts people. That means getting away from gasoline driving the supplies low and driving up the price of conventional fuel so it's no longer economically viable to stick with them forcing people to Alternative Solutions you better get out your checkbook if you voted for that Administration you voted for spending a lot of money replacing vehicles and furnaces
[deleted] OP t1_ixluyha wrote
[deleted]
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixlv4oo wrote
(Copy and paste)
Combining kerosene and heating oil can be very dangerous because they have different ignition temperatures and different outputs during burning. These factors can lead to fires and excessive fumes. Because of this, carbon monoxide alarms often sound when the two are mixed together in a heating system.
Ricky_in_Halifax t1_ixlwi6v wrote
That's not true, oil companies used to offer blended fuels right out of delivery trucks specifically for outdoor tanks like for manufactured homes
Careful_Square1742 t1_ixlxolb wrote
this. I ran one of the largest fuel dealers in northern VT for years - 50/50 mix is rare, but 80/20 is not.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm00nx wrote
I'm just repeating what company tells me. Sorry if info is not accurate.
hudsoncider t1_ixm26n1 wrote
Maybe prefix your statement with ‘the company told me… ‘ rather than trying to post like it is fact then.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm2b9l wrote
I copied and pasted that info chill out dang
hudsoncider t1_ixm2hik wrote
Just trying to stop people spreading misinformation that’s all mate. There is already enough confusion on this thread for some. It’s all good.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm2tun wrote
The oil company I called gave me misinformation I guess. Must be a new employee 🤷♂️
BigEnd3 t1_ixm2xhy wrote
If you are such a petroleum engineer why do you need our help? Go ask google for your copied text again.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm31ie wrote
Nobody needs your help douche.
Sonakstyle t1_ixow7vo wrote
Keep voting dem
[deleted] OP t1_ixm4fu2 wrote
Put on another layer and say take that putin! Slava Ukraine🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
mountainofclay t1_ixnhdhl wrote
Works great till your water freezes up. Winter gets longer at that point.
[deleted] OP t1_ixmeeaa wrote
Who are the russian bots that downvoted this
Tattooteddybear t1_ixmd1bp wrote
Vermonters this is what build back better looks like. Keep voting blue.
Pyroechidna1 t1_ixmo093 wrote
Wonder why the UK and Germany can’t afford heating either
Corey307 t1_ixnoo0h wrote
Most first world nations are suffering the same or worse economic problems and price hikes we’re dealing with.
somedudevt t1_ixlyysb wrote
It’s happening!! The Covid transplants are starting to see why Such a beautiful place isn’t full of people. OP sorry you are finding this difficult, but this is the sort of research people should do before they purchase a home. Understand the heating system, know what’s available locally, go into winter with a full tank, not scrambling in winter to figure it all out. Vermont can be brutal, and as we saw, can go from a week of 70deg to full blown winter in a couple days with no shoulder season.
Word to the wise, it’s ALWAYS gonna get cold this time of year, even if it’s 80 in October, you should be prepping for winter in august and September. Historically heating oil prices hit their annual low the mid of September. If you haven’t filled by then it’s only going up.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixlzgzp wrote
I'm from Alaska. We heat differently and cold is no new thing to me. Kinda hard prepping for winter when you been living in your truck saving for a home and finally get one in winter and work 10 hr days 7 days a week . You response was kind of condescending but hey, you do you bud 👍
Unique-Public-8594 t1_ixm146e wrote
Some people get room mates.
Some people put in wood stoves (and gather free wood from what the utility crews leave behind when they clear the lines).
Some put in heat pumps (0% interest if less than 89k annual income, plus tax benefits).
Some lower the thermostat to 60 and bundle up.
Some people put in solar.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm1ulr wrote
I'm working on it trust me I'm killing myself at work. I bought this place with cash not a loan so it took my life savings and now I'm starting over again from nothing
Unique-Public-8594 t1_ixm4dso wrote
Good luck. Ain’t easy but smart move.
I’m thinking in the years ahead you’ll be glad you did.
somedudevt t1_ixlzxj2 wrote
I was merely basing it on ur post history of coming from Florida. If ur from Alaska then honestly you should know better…
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm07jg wrote
We use wood stoves and propane in Alaska not heating oil.
headgasketidiot t1_ixm1k6f wrote
Wood heating in Vermont is also really common. We do 90% of our heating with wood at my place and that's pretty typical for my area.
Any chance you've got a chimney that can take a wood stove? If not, my sister just had an outdoor chimney installed and it cost her about 3k all said and done, which is not even that much more than filling your tank!
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm20u5 wrote
I will be installing wood stove next year once I save up money again. My savings were drained on this purchase
somedudevt t1_ixm3nqw wrote
Since you paid cash you have equity. Do a HELOC, and get yourself a wood system installed. It will cost less than oil for the season especially if you have wood already cut which your other posts say you do. Be aware that heating with softwood here is frowned on, I know in Canada and Alaska it’s common as that’s what grows. But in general in for a penny in for a pound, pull off the bandaid and just put in the wood system now, it will be much cheaper in the end, and enable you to pay over time for the system.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm4bal wrote
I have mostly maple and ash on site it appears
headgasketidiot t1_ixmjm0m wrote
I really like that person's suggestion. If you bought in cash, a HELOC is a great idea.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixn6t6v wrote
I'll Google heloc
somedudevt t1_ixmkcm2 wrote
Might as well clear the ash while you can get benefit from them… in the next dozen years our ash trees will be gone, they are already being wiped out in parts of the state.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixn6qrb wrote
That's what I was thinking. Pretty decent size. They are over 40' tall and 12-14" in diameter. I figure get to gettin while it's good. I've fell about 8 of them so far.
friedmpa t1_ixm2bfc wrote
A cord of wood is 4x more expensive than last year, better start chopping too, or enjoy a freezing place like me :p
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm2plt wrote
I have lots of woods on my property so plenty has been cleaned up and harvested and being seasoned. Was going to sell it on the cheap to people in low income situations
friedmpa t1_ixm327x wrote
That’s really nice of you man, enjoy your thanksgiving or day
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm37v2 wrote
If you need firewood I have some you can take. I'll help you with it too but I'm injured so I'll be only kinda helpful lol
friedmpa t1_ixm46kq wrote
Nah I don’t have a wood stove, natural gas sadly. I know people that leave wood in cubbies that say like $10 each with a box on the side of the road, if you trust people that drive by enough.
headgasketidiot t1_ixm2x4s wrote
I'm really sorry you're in this predicament, and I feel your pain. I moved here 5 years ago, and right after closing, our house's heating system failed and we didn't really have the cash to replace it or install a stove. It was a very long, hard winter.
My only thought is go meet your neighbors and ask them for advice. We didn't know any of our neighbors then. Now that we do, they've all said how happy they would've been to help us out any way they could've, as I would for any new neighbor. If nothing else, you can have a friendly place to warm up on the coldest days.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm3d20 wrote
I don't have neighbors unfortunately and fortunately
headgasketidiot t1_ixm3kls wrote
Neither do I, but I've learned "neighbors" here is a pretty expansive concept. My nearest neighbors are just under a mile away, but it doesn't stop us from treating each other as neighbors. I'd say anyone within 5 miles is basically a neighbor.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm3yj9 wrote
On that note, I'll see if anyone friendly is around. I've discovered only 1 in 5 people here are nice and welcoming . Maybe it's just my area but I've only met grumpy alcoholic farmers that don't like people.
headgasketidiot t1_ixm4rtv wrote
That's a shame and honestly a bit surprising. Basically everyone around me is pretty friendly. Every time I'm doing some chore and my tractor looks like it's struggling with the mud, I've got every old farmer pulling over to see if they need me to bring their tractors over to help.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixm5bmr wrote
Like I said, could be my area. I was living in a camp in Eden for a while and met lots of great people that I still see regularly. Killington was nice people but too uppity and busy for my liking.
headgasketidiot t1_ixm52eo wrote
Hey maybe don't be a smug jerk to someone in a tough spot. You don't even give bad advice; you're just an asshole about it.
somedudevt t1_ixmm5km wrote
Because this post on its surface was very much what we are seeing in the state. We have a ton of Covid refugees who fled shitty places to come to our piece of heaven, and in the process many did little to no research on what life is really like. This guy is apparently from Alaska, so I would expect a whole lot more from someone who has experience in cold weather. But on the whole the Covid influx is a net negative for most 20 and 30 year old natives trying to start families here. So yeah I’m a dick, and I’m fine with that. We have a ton of people moving here driving up costs who have no clue what they are getting into, and as one of those youngish people starting out, it’s frustrating as all hell.
Anyone who watches this page sees this shit, from the posts “my disabled family is moving to vermont to live in section 8 and not work and need advice on housing” (this was a real thread) to the “I’ve only ever visited killington but just bought a home cash in vershire, I don’t drive can anyone give advice on walkability and public transport”
This was happening so much a whole new sub was created… so I’m a dick by pointing out on these sort of posts that a lack of planning leads to negative results. People need common sense.
headgasketidiot t1_ixmoqwy wrote
You're wrong, actually. You're mad at the wrong people. From https://vtdigger.org/2022/08/12/wildly-unusual-census-shows-explosion-of-migration-into-vermont-in-pandemics-first-year/
>More than 4,800 people moved to Vermont between 2020 and 2021, the highest net migration total the state has reported in at least a decade, according to U.S. Census Bureau population estimates.
4800 people is around .7% of the population. That's not what is driving up the costs. Costs are going up because the rich are getting richer and are hoarding everything, including other people's houses. 50% of all new construction and 20% of existing housing is second homes. Corporate buyers are making up almost 25% of all SFH sales in the state, up from just 5% a couple decades ago.
And it's not just housing - oil companies have been consistently posting record profits since oil prices went through the roof, which is how we even got to this post.
We are watching our housing turn into a rent trap before our very eyes; we are watching our neighbors are increasingly unable to heat their homes, and you are taking it out on this poor fucking person who can't afford to heat their house.
You are on the same fucking team. You are both victims of the same system. Maybe, instead of being dicks to other people in similar situations as you because they moved here from a different state, we can learn a bit of class solidarity. Or you can keep doing what you're doing, and normal people can continue to squabble among ourselves for the scraps while the rich leave us less and less. The former actually has a chance of making our lives better; the latter makes you feel smug on the internet.
somedudevt t1_ixmpxma wrote
Yes class solidarity… I expect the same on both sides. To say those 5000 people didn’t increase housing costs is just false. Yes second homes and Air BnB are a big issue, and should be addressed legislatively through taxes so high they force sale. But the people coming here may be “on the same side” but they are exacerbating the issue. So at the end of the day they are hurting people who are here. If we open our arms and welcome everyone our issues get worse. We need to be honest that there are major issues, and that people coming here fleeing higher prices elsewhere make that worse.
I’m a liberal through and through, but I don’t want people who have issues where they are solving them by making our issues worse. If they have structural issues with cost where they are fleeing from, or some other issue (public health policy, woman’s rights, gay rights, racism) fleeing the issue because they have means to do so instead of fighting doesn’t make things better.
headgasketidiot t1_ixmr6gt wrote
You misunderstand the scale of the data.
5000 people is about 2000 households. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the TENS OF THOUSANDS of houses that are second homes, or the approximately hundred thousand or so houses owned by landlords.
You are fighting over scraps with the least important factor in your problem.
somedudevt t1_ixmstnj wrote
So your saying demand reducing supply doesn’t increase cost? I can tell you if you pull up Zillow and zoom out state level there are not 2000 units available statewide. So adding 2000 households without the same number of new units prices rise. The base issue may be second homes, unoccupied homes, Airbnb etc. but in the immediate term 1 person moving here takes a house from one local person. That one person could stay where they are, not increase costs here, and get active locally to address the problems they have where they are from, which could improve things there.
At some point we can’t be the haven for everyone everywhere. People need to fight the systems where they are to improve things there, otherwise we will become those places.
headgasketidiot t1_ixmzfsw wrote
Pulling up the number of houses for sale right now on Zillow in one of the slowest months of the year has absolutely nothing to do with anything. In fact, if you knew at all what you were talking about, you'd realize that actually hurts your point. Let me explain.
Here's some actual data. It's a graph of the number of houses for sale every month for 5 years. In the on-season, it's pretty typical for well over a thousand homes to sell every month. Even in the slow months, it can often clear a thousand. If you look at a chart of how many houses get listed every year, that number is going down because, as I keep repeating, the wealthy are buying up more and more of the houses. That is what is causing housing prices to skyrocket. The pool is shrinking.
Why is the pool shrinking? As this graph shows, the pool shrinking is happening at the same time as investors are buying up the housing. Once someone who doesn't plan to live in it buys up a house as an investment, it is out of the homeowner pool and, in the best case scenario, it turns into a rental, though it is increasingly likely it turns into an airbnb.
We haven't even gotten to the vacation homes yet, which is approximately 10,000 homes. That is 5x the number of households as have moved here.
What you're doing is scapegoating, pure and simple. These effects cannot be explained by 2000 more households. The scale is off by an order of magnitude, and the timelines are off. This started before the pandemic. It's the continuation of a trend that has been going on since 2008, but has really picked up steam since 2017 or so.
edit: accidentally hit save early
>At some point we can’t be the haven for everyone everywhere. People need to fight the systems where they are to improve things there, otherwise we will become those places.
You keep acting like people are moving here in droves, when in reality they are not. 4,800 people is absolutely fucking tiny. There are dozens of mid-sized cities throughout the country growing faster than that. You're making up a phenomenon that doesn't exist and then using it as a scapegoat for the more complicated problems that are actually happening that, for whatever reason, you have some vested interest in not accepting. I genuinely do not understand.
Corey307 t1_ixnutnq wrote
Something to consider is lower income people are leaving the state. I don’t have numbers but I know a few who have left and a few are leaving, all are lower middle class. Most were priced out or sold and moved somewhere where their money went further. I don’t know a whole lot of people but the people I do know are working blue colored folk and a lot are getting pushed out.
I’m a transplant too, came here about four years ago. Bought a house that had sat on the market because back then the market was pretty soft. It’s lovely here and I’ve tried to integrate but it’s getting harder to justify staying since everything is more expensive here. It’s hard paying $6,000 in property taxes a year after the homestead exemption when I could sell and buy a house almost for cash with the proceeds in a lower tax state.
somedudevt t1_ixn6frf wrote
Also the Digger article you posted was 7/20-7/22. The headline even says in the 1st year of the pandemic. We don’t know what the last 16 months looks like, but housing prices peaked and stock available reached its low in like June this year, so I’d expect we gained another 5-6k. That would be 10000 people in 2 years.
headgasketidiot t1_ixnb3a3 wrote
You're right; idk how I misread that graph. Will edit.
It really doesn't change the argument though. Doubling or even quintupling the number doesn't change anything when we're talking about different orders of magnitude.
somedudevt t1_ixox5gi wrote
But it does. Even an infinitesimal demand side imbalance can cause chaos on supply and price. Look at the stock market, and the concept of a squeeze. If you can get demand to even slightly outstrip supply you can create a cyclical effect where price rises because price is rising. The market snowballs.
If you have 10 houses on the market and 10 buyers the price will be at or below ask. If you have 10 houses and 11 buyers someone (the out of stater with means) will bid up the price on one property. When they do that the market resets at that new rate Bob down the road says “I have equity now as the market is up, I’m going to list” he lists at the inflated rate, and because we had 11 buyers and 10 houses the 11th buyer is suckered into that higher rate. And since thats the new rate Suzy across town says “I wonder if I can get x for my property and lists even higher, Bob pockets full from the inflated sale bites on that and we keep the cycle going up. Add in near 0 interest rates, full employment, Covid relief money, millennials starting to inherit boomer money, stuff goes arwry. It doesn’t take a large imbalance in supply and demand to make that swing. Houses needing work have been selling above assessed value no inspection, because demand is there. AND don’t pretend these are investments. The OP bought cash, and said so. All of my friends who have been outbid were outbid by cash offers who are residing in the homes. The investment thing is an issue in places where there is a value in investing in property. But that’s not Barton, or Orange, Or vershire.
[deleted] OP t1_ixq4t80 wrote
[deleted]
headgasketidiot t1_ixq6wvv wrote
I've given you so much actual data. This entire comment is literally a made up story, an anecdotal observation, and ending on an unsupported (and factually incorrect) claim based on absolutely nothing, all while completely ignoring all the actual real data I've laid out for you.
>But it does. Even an infinitesimal demand side imbalance can cause chaos on supply and price. Look at the stock market, and the concept of a squeeze. If you can get demand to even slightly outstrip supply you can create a cyclical effect where price rises because price is rising. The market snowballs.
How changes in supply and demand affect pricing in general and in housing specifically are both open areas of research in economics. Papers are still being written about it.
Squeezes are the result of derivative financial instruments. That has absolutely nothing to do housing. Like, there's no point here. There's no analogous situation in our housing market to a short squeeze. The only thing they have in common is that they're both markets, but you could not have chosen two more different markets.
>If you have 10 houses on the market and 10 buyers the price will be at or below ask. If you have 10 houses and 11 buyers someone (the out of stater with means) will bid up the price on one property. When they do that the market resets at that new rate Bob down the road says “I have equity now as the market is up, I’m going to list” he lists at the inflated rate, and because we had 11 buyers and 10 houses the 11th buyer is suckered into that higher rate. And since thats the new rate Suzy across town says “I wonder if I can get x for my property and lists even higher, Bob pockets full from the inflated sale bites on that and we keep the cycle going up. Add in near 0 interest rates, full employment, Covid relief money, millennials starting to inherit boomer money, stuff goes arwry. It doesn’t take a large imbalance in supply and demand to make that swing. Houses needing work have been selling above assessed value no inspection, because demand is there.
This is a work of fiction. Boby and Suzy aren't real. There are more than 10 houses in the world. Yeah, no shit the hypothetical you invented supports your argument. I don't know why you're making up stories when I've given you actual, real data.
>All of my friends who have been outbid were outbid by cash offers who are residing in the homes.
Anecdote. That's entirely possible, but if it is the case, then it's a statistical anomaly. Again, we have really good data on who is buying homes, and we know that regular people like OP buying houses in cash is the exception. 70% of home buyers finance, and once you include financing and contingencies on selling their previous home, that's virtually all regular human buyers. No contingencies and with cash, statistically, is investors.
>The investment thing is an issue in places where there is a value in investing in property. But that’s not Barton, or Orange, Or vershire.
Unsupported claim. You have no idea and clearly just made that up.
somedudevt t1_ixn5mo8 wrote
Have you attempted to do a real estate transaction since Covid? Specifically up to the point the fed starting jacking up rates?
I know countless people who in central and eastern VT have been outbid by cash offers at or over asking price by out of staters who have remote jobs, or have accepted a local job, and are fleeing stuff in other places.
Commodities are impacted by supply and demand plain and simple. If there is 100 gallons of gas available, and there is a demand for 101 gallons of gas ALL 100 gallons go up to the price of the highest offer. The same is true with housing. If you increase demand above supply the whole market rises. Investors are a problem in Burlington, Stowe, killington etc. they are not buying property in Hardwick, or Calais, or Orange, Morrisville, Barton, etc but prices in those places are rising as new people move in And new housing isn’t brought online to offset the demand inbalance.
As for home sales, yes houses trade hands regularly, 1000 houses can be sold, and if 1000 people leave and 1000 people arrive we are ok.. if the net is 0 new residents a system is stable with the same stock being traded among new residents by those leaving. But people are not leaving. So we have 1000 people leaving and 1100 coming in. There is more demand for housing than there is supply. So every house that is a net new resident is a house off the market out of circulation. This is fairly simple stuff.
And I’m not saying the investment shit isn’t the main source of the issue, I’m saying that any pressure on top of that does have a negative impact that people should be aware of. If we solve the investment/2nd home thing then we have capacity, but with that not solved we don’t need new residents and they do make the issue worse, and anyone denying that is just plain not paying attention.
headgasketidiot t1_ixn9nam wrote
>I know countless people who in central and eastern VT have been outbid by cash offers at or over asking price by out of staters who have remote jobs, or have accepted a local job, and are fleeing stuff in other places.
Those out-of-state cash offers are basically always investors. Private equity firms usually don't say they are private equity firms when they're buying houses, and people who lose out on houses don't get to meet the people who outbid them. What you're hearing is what your friend's realtor heard from the seller's realtor who heard it from the other buyer's realtor who probably heard it from the buyer's lawyer, because they're an investment firm, and not a person.
It's gossip, and it's gossip that suits the investors because it distracts from what is happening. I wouldn't even be surprised if they are telling sellers' agents that they're out of state remote workers just to muddy the waters. Seriously, this isn't even an anecdote - it's a rumor. This is why we use data to understand what is happening, and not what the local rumor mill is saying about it.
I believe you that your friends have had that experience, and that REALLY FUCKING SUCKS. I am SO MAD on their behalf. I don't want to live in a world where my friends and neighbors are priced out. I want to fix this problem, but like I have said over and over, you are angry at the wrong people. Your friends keep being outbid by investors, not by people like OP, because there are not enough people like OP to even come close to explaining your friends being constantly outbid. Your friends don't know they are losing out to investors because why would the investors go around advertising that? How would your friends even know? They are reporting the best information that they have, which is a rumor they heard from their realtor.
Corey307 t1_ixnvjn8 wrote
So I’m originally from Los Angeles and still have friends there. A few of them have been trying to buy a condo or townhouse for a couple years and consistently get beat by cash bids and a lot of those cash bids are coming from investors or companies that run massive amounts of properties. Investors aren’t content to just own apartment complexes now, there’s plenty of money to be made from owning individual units or slowly buying up an entire condo complex. Same thing is happening here and the more real estate that is held by a handful of people or companies the higher prices go.
headgasketidiot t1_ixop8q2 wrote
Yeah exactly. This is happening all around the world. The world's rich have been getting steadily richer since 2008, and they're moving that capital into housing. This is why it bothers me so much that people here blame "out of staters." It's an international crisis, not some hyper-local niche situation in our little backwater.
Corey307 t1_ixowxht wrote
The NIMBY assholes and all the red tape you have to cut through to build a house here certainly doesn’t help. Chittenden county desperately needs affordable housing and the most cost effective and efficient way to do so is to build some medium rise apartment complexes. The working class and lower middle class people who work in Chittenden county need a place to live that isn’t some shitty house build 150 years ago subdivided into studios that won’t get to 67° inside with the heat on full blast. It also shouldn’t be so difficult nor expensive to build a house in this state. Just the permitting and environmental impact bs to put in a septic system cost as much as the system. It’s urine and feces not radioactive waste or coal ash for crying out loud both do not hurt the environment much.
Corey307 t1_ixoz3id wrote
So this is extremely rough math but one could build four 250 unit apartment complexes on about 4 to 5 acres of land total depending on if there was below ground parking or not. I’m talking about very simple housing with 500 ft.² units in a 5 story building. If you make it five stories the footprint is about 25,000 ft.², add another 2,000-3,000 ft.² for paths, exterior building dimensions and whatever.
That leaves you with about 16,000 ft.². Your average parking space is about 320 ft.² you’ve only got parking for about 50 cars at max. One level of below ground parking would easily add another 50 cars. If each building lot was 1.5 acres you can get to about 200 cars between above and below ground parking, still a little short so maybe bump up to 7 acres for 1,000+ cars.
So yeah it’s not as simple as building a single family home on .08 acres but there has to be 6-7 buildable acres somewhere in this county. Hell build all four together, makes building parking easier. Or get a shuttle bus or two running nonstop into Burlington, that would be great for people who can’t afford, don’t want or can no longer drive a car.
Is it perfect? Hell no but I look at my little neighborhood and we have about eight houses on about 25 acres housing maybe 25 people on the outskirts of Chittenden County and my roughed out idea houses 40 times as many on 30% as much land. And yes I’m talking about very basic accommodations but that would work fine for a lot of working class people and young people. They’d still be close enough to commute to work without breaking the bank and if it was financially feasible a shuttle system would help even more. It doesn’t solve for all problems but it definitely helps.
Corey307 t1_ixnv4xp wrote
Except we do need new residents, if you haven’t noticed all the businesses closing or that are barely open because they can’t staff up you must not go out much. Yes the state doesn’t need more work from home remote job types, the state needs blue collar workers and the lack of affordable housing or housing in general deters people from coming here as does typical crap Vermont wages. But people with money bought up large amounts of property for rentals or Airbnb, that’s the real problem.
Corey307 t1_ixnu38u wrote
Those 5,000 people didn’t drive up home prices by 50-100+%. transplants are nowhere near the primary cause of housing prices going crazy.
MrHoonigan802 t1_ixuhaxy wrote
You are what's wrong with vermont. Sorry nobody likes you and I'm sorry you are misinformed about what's really happening in vermont and around the country. Perhaps treat others nicer and your neighbors will talk to you and help you when you are in a bind because you are a toxic negative individual.
InvisibleGrbgTrckJry t1_ixmjh1t wrote
Word to the wise: acting like a gatekeeping douchecanoe to someone asking for help will ALWAYS get your smug ass dragged.
Do better.
pooticlesparkle t1_ixltb60 wrote
I don't know your situation, and this isn't exactly what you asked, but if this can help you or someone else: https://dcf.vermont.gov/benefits/eap
I would google kerosene delivery to your area and call and compare prices. Unfortunately by me all of the places charge the same.