Submitted by Hazmat1575 t3_zflucp in vermont
Dadfart802 t1_izex1h4 wrote
Reply to comment by Nutmegdog1959 in UVM Students Charged for 'Extreme' Dorm Damages by Hazmat1575
19 grand a year? Hardly unaffordable for what you get. Half of VT attendees go for free? Out of reach is just not true especially when you add in the fact you can get credits in HS or CCV and they count towards your degree.
https://vtdigger.org/2020/01/26/nearly-half-of-enrolled-vermonters-attend-uvm-tuition-free/amp/
Nutmegdog1959 t1_izeyyg7 wrote
That's tuition & fees. Total ticket is $33k if you live on campus and many VT's do.
And, no, they don't always transfer all the HS credits and no all the CCV credits do not articulate.
And the reason so many VT's go tuition free is the green and gold program that allows the Valedictorian (and Salutatorian I think) of each HS class in VT go free of charge.
So, as usual, the high achieving kids that are almost always from high achieving families who could well afford to pay get to go for free.
Where is the equity there?
Nomad3014 t1_izfdzzr wrote
While I agree that UVM is too expensive as a graduate myself… The majority of tuition free attendance is not the green and gold program. You might be surprised to learn it’s primarily children of faculty members. After a certain amount of time at UVM, any faculty members kids can attend full ride - this is partially why UVM has so many roles that would usually have a high turnover rate getting held onto.
Furthermore, the vast majority of students get SOME amount of financial aid, typically need driven rather than merit driven (89% of students get some form of discount as per the reporting of UVM’s student financial services).
While this is also PR - UVM Keeps Tuition Frozen for Fifth Consecutive Year, New Scholarship Offers Full Tuition to Vermonters from Households with Incomes up to $60k
I love to rag on UVM but let’s rag on them for the real scummy things they do, I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing if you think the 1 kid that each eligible Vermont high school / some border schools is able to nominate to receive the scholarship every year is the core of UVM’s inequality.
Nutmegdog1959 t1_izfglxr wrote
You are correct, that's a small part of it. My point was directed more at the inequity. If your mom and dad are professionals with six figure incomes. Working a p/t job for a pair of ugly yeezys or lululemons might not be necessary for you. You can focus exclusively on your schoolwork.
But if you're a middle class or lower middle class high achieving kid that needs to work 20 hrs a week while in HS you might not be tops in your class. Maybe you're just top 10. You're going to miss out on the free ride.
And I'm aware the kids of faculty and staff (of ALL VT state colleges) get free or significantly reduced tuition.
But the kids of SERVICE staff like Sodexo, who could probably use the help more than Faculty and Staff kids, well, just one more inequity!
Nomad3014 t1_izfk16v wrote
To your point on inequality though, would merit based scholarships then never be appropriate or fair? You can control for financial need easier than you can control for any other circumstance that could change a students ability to succeed.
Also when you say “SERVICE” do you know that to be the case? The janitorial staff etc. all get the tuition benefit after one year as well so I always just assumed that extended into the dining services areas as well but if Sodexo is a third party contractor with the school that could make sense.
There’s clearly a problem with how expensive UVM is but then having 44% of in state students on a zero tuition plan is still substantial. 12 of the 44% are faculty / staff dependents and the rest are need / merit based scholarships and grants.
One of the biggest pieces of the puzzle is that often students don’t even know what grants or funding they’d be eligible for. I was sure my family couldn’t afford college until I sat down with my high school guidance counselor and he walked me through getting access to as many need based routes as I could. Everyone isn’t so lucky to get help to figure out all the forms and applications etc etc
I’m of a stance where state universities should be 100% free for their states residents so in my opinion that 44% isn’t high enough but truly I am curious if you can propose something that is able to balance all the competing factors that currently render merit based anything entirely unequal.
Nutmegdog1959 t1_izgeb1g wrote
I agree, instate tuition should be free up to about $100k family income. Then graduated to about $200k toping out at about $10k/yr instate tuition.
Long story short, my mothers side of the family (Gallant) is at least 7 generations VT. They snuck over the border from Canada some time between the Revolution and the Civil War.
You can't have any substantive discussion of VT policy without first providing your VT bonafides. Unfortunately I grew up on the other side of the lake in NY where my dad is from. I have been a VT property owner for 40 yrs and f/t VTer for 20. I went to an Ivy league school in NY where the total ticket was $7200/yr. You could buy a brand new VW Beetle for $2995 that year.
My fraternity brother and roommate was from the same town as me, yet I had never met him before college. I thought that odd because I new most all the tall black men from my hometown that ran HS track, like me.
Turns out he was new in our town. His family had just moved to town so his dad could take a job with the state. "What agency?" I asked, because many families in my middle class neighborhood worked for the state. "State University" he told me. "Oh, what job?" I asked, my best friends dad worked there, maybe they were acquainted? "Chancellor" he told me.
I was a (lower) middle class kid, from a neighborhood full of state workers and laborers and hourly wage earners, not executives.
His dad had been hired to run the NY State University system. He had been hired specifically to cut costs, close up to a dozen State Colleges and Community Colleges and cut the budget by hundreds of millions of dollars over a period of a few years.
First thing 'Cliff' did was visit every single State College and CC in the state, ALL 64. He spoke with deans, faculty, unions and community leaders. Most of the colleges in NY are actually Upstate. This was during the recession of the 1970's that featured high unemployment AND high inflation, stagflation.
As a Harvard and U of Chicago PhD. trained economist, Cliff understood that the colleges were the economic hub of these small towns. Closures would be devastating. He also understood the value of the human capital created at these colleges. He knew that the only chance many of the students at these schools had of improving their lives was to get a college degree.
When Cliff reported his findings and his decision to the NY Board of Regents who reported to the NY legislature, they were pissed. His mandate was to cut costs and close colleges and he refused to do either. He insisted MORE investment was necessary, not less.
Fortunately he had a reluctant ally in NY Gov Hugh Carey who had been re-elected in 1978. Cliff was able to charm the NY State Legislature through numerous hearings and various types of financial legerdemain to balance the budgets and get the necessary funding.
Cliff could see companies like Corning Glass and Xerox and Kodak and Polaroid and IBM all needed an educated workforce to succeed. They needed to fill jobs that required skills and a technical education. Cliff could see the impending personal computer revolution starting and the economic impact that would have.
Cliff got his funding and got his wish to keep ALL 64 colleges open. Even though the number of HS students in NY is LESS THAN HALF of what is was back then, ALL 64 colleges are STILL open to this day, and thriving.
Cliff went on to receive an honorary degree at UVM in the 80's. He became the Chairman of the Rockefeller Foundation and the CEO of TIAA-CREF and turned that pension fund around, quadrupling it's assets in just a few years and instituting numerous organizational changes. After TIAA-CREF Cliff went on to become the Undersecretary of State in the Clinton Administration.
When he was hired at MSU Cliff was known as 'the the first Negro president of a major predominantly white college in the country.' He insisted on wider financial aid and need blind admissions at MSU. He was then the first African-American to lead a Fortune Fifty company.
VT needs a visionary like Cliff. Or at least someone who understands the value of a college degree. We have a Governor that sees the State contribution to the Univ and State Colleges as a 'gift' a line item expense. He doesn't regard the Univ and State College as an investment in the future. He's a cheapskate who led the charge to withhold more state funding to the colleges when he was in the Senate and he's only now agreeing to pitch in a little extra because the state is flush with Covid Cash.
VT has one of the highest HS graduation rates in the country. But of the top 20 states with high HS graduation rates we rank LAST in percentage of students who matriculate to college. Why is this? Likely sticker shock. Our CCV tuition is near the top of nationwide CC tuition rates. Same with UVM tuition.
CCV offers almost nothing of interest outside classes. They have no gym, no dinning halls, cafeterias, dorms, intramurals, intercollegiate athletics, clubs or extra-curricular activities that help to lure students. Nothing. Go to neighboring states NY and MA and their CC's are like real colleges at less cost.
The State Colleges have changed names three times in the last four or five years. And in that time frame FOUR VT colleges have closed their doors forever!
The state, led by Gov Scott, let four colleges with hundreds of acres and hundreds of thousands of square feet of floor space, and hundreds of employees fall out of active educational space.
With just a little bit of creativity, these spaces could have been part of the State College system. They could have been Incubator Spaces, Co-Working spaces, places for emerging technologies and entrepreneurship.
Our Governors only solution to the aging population and shrinking tax base is to import remote workers. And he'll use the 'Covid exodus' from cities to VT as proof positive that his plan is working.
It's not working. A few areas of the state are doing well while others are floundering. The kids in those areas will not thrive, they will not do well and they will likely leave VT and look for better jobs and lower costs elsewhere, most likely the American South.
In-state education, combined with internships, entrepreneurship, maker-spaces, co-working spaces; these are the things that keep people here and help build and preserve the tax base.
Xyall t1_izfovs4 wrote
UVM solves half of this problem with the Catamount Commitment fund. Any in-state student who receives any amount of funding from the Federal Pell Grant gets their tuition waived. This is about ~19k of the 33k a year cost from tution + room + board. There are also student support services groups at UVM (not the TRiO program though which they axed aimed at helping out for financial aid/scholarships.
Absolutely not going to take your argument that middle class/lower middle class students get shafted by UVM. It's fairly obvious from any high schooler's UVM financial aid package shows this issue exactly. A good portion of in-state tuition is offset by the high cost of out-of-state students since there are more out of state than in-state students. (Side topic but this data shows exactly how much and there's almost more MA students than VT students)
However, your point of the majority of the students here are high achievers due to coming from well-off families holds true at least from a personal observation standpoint. There's still the issue that UVM has to (partially!) have high tuition due to insufficient funding from the state/feds, but that's another argument I do not know enough about to make a comfortable analysis. Hope whatever I said here helps you argue how fucked the situation of inequality is for Vermont students where our only in state option for accredited STEM degrees is locked away behind a paywall which most of us cannot afford.
Nutmegdog1959 t1_izgoood wrote
The instate/OOstate tuition gambit is the same at virtually every state university. Total costs are typically 2:1 out vs in state. VT is little different in that regard.
Where VT is unique with the exception of other tiny population states near large population centers like URI and UNH (excluding the military academies) UVM is 4:1 out vs in state. Those students still are admitted need blind (allegedly) and receive financial aid. I would wager, however, that a large percentage of the OOstate students parents just scratch out a fat check come tuition time.
And don't forget the Chinese students who pre-pandemic numbered 500 and received ZERO financial aid. They were the biggest cash cow UVM ever saw. UVM would happily kick an in-stater to the curb in favor of a Chinese if they thought they could get away with it.
The Green & Gold program, Catamount Committment and the UVM Promise (under $60k income) program starting Fall 2023 are all recent programs initiated within the last five years.
I still maintain that $60k is not a lot of income in VT. And realistically $100k is not a lot in certain areas, especially when faced with a $33k four year annual bill, even accounting for aide of as much as half.
If you burden your kid with say $15k x 4yrs, student loans that's still a heavy lode to carry. And certainly weighs heavy on grad school decisions. With so many employers requiring degree inflated credentials of masters degrees, it's a lot of pressure on kids.
VT has a long way to go to educate a workforce, keep the kids in VT, breed more VTers and increase the tax base.
Dadfart802 t1_izfx2qb wrote
I didn’t add that bc, people pay rent regardless. 2nd, UVM accepts in state credit more often than not they don’t. 3rd, there are 82 VT high schools vs around 2200 UVM students from VT, half of which are going for free.
My kid is probably going to get the G & G but won’t be attending UVM because she’s got better offers OOS. Back to your original point, UVM is expensive but not unaffordable. As for equity, the UVM promise makes it so anyone who’s parents make under 60k a year, can attend for free. It’s easy to say that college is unaffordable, but if you dig in a little, that’s just not true.
Nutmegdog1959 t1_izgjgxe wrote
I'm mostly in agreement with you, and very good for your kid!
It's the middle to lower middle class who get pinched. It doesn't take much to get to $60k. Single parents (9 out of 10 are women) OK $60k is more than average. But, godforbid, a two parent household, $60k is easy to get to with two modest incomes.
Also ,VT HS kids matriculate at a lower rate than all other HS students in states with comparable HS graduation rates. What does that tell you?
I agree, not unaffordable, but you gotta convince the VT HS kids of that. The only thing more expensive than going to college in VT is NOT going to college.
Dadfart802 t1_izhdipi wrote
Agreed, but there is a HUGE need for tradespeople in this state, but lack of housing is hurting growth in this state.
Nutmegdog1959 t1_izkb8fu wrote
Exactly!
That's where our CCV is a complete and total failure.
We could have annexed the four failed VT colleges into the VT State College system, wiped out CCV as it stands, and incorporate trade schools into the State College/CCV footprint.
Every building trade now requires serious knowledge of computer hardware and software in addition to the specific trade.
Every HVAC system, electric supply, plumbing, design/build, solar, everything now requires extensive use of computers, hardware, software, testing equipment, field assembly, etc.
There is only VTC in VT to train young wo/men to break into these fields and these programs don't necessarily lead to an AS degree.
It's not like the good old days where you can pick up a hammer and learn a trade. Who's going to train them? Using what standards?
One school in Williston does not serve the whole state.
Go over to NY and almost every CC has a building trades program. If you're not the most interested in college you can stop at the AS degree. If you want to go on you can take it to engineering, architecture, etc. HVCC in Troy, NY allows you to transfer from CC to RPI's engineering program, one or the best in the country!
Our entire post secondary system in this state is week as hell!
Dadfart802 t1_izkq8di wrote
I agree with you 1000%!!!!
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments