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Eagle_Arm t1_j21wpbp wrote

Reply to comment by Less-Bodybuilder3537 in UVM too expensive by Constant_Education_4

I hate the fact that you're right. A four-year degree is the new high school diploma. It's meaningless.

College has turned into a cash cow for admin rather than about building a prepared workforce.

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whaletacochamp t1_j23pcxx wrote

You're both wrong, but wrong in the way that society wants you to be wrong. The trades are hiring faster than ever and often you can make more than someone with a graduate degree within a few years.

Society really wants everyone to believe they need a PhD, but in reality we need plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc.

Everyone I know in the trades has a lucrative career. The majority of people I know with graduate degrees struggle to make a decent living and usually make less than the tradesmen.

Hell, I have a bachelors in a science field and got a well paying job out of college and now make pretty close to $100k 7 years later. My sister had to give up on her PhD because it was too expensive and now can’t find a decent paying job with her masters.

In the end it’s much more about what you do than the letters after your name.

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mr_chip_douglas t1_j245lp6 wrote

Am 34, tradesman since 16. You are not mentioning the long hours and sometimes travel times, hard labor on your body and an often awful work environment. I also advocate for the trades, but it’s not simply “the same or more pay but no degree needed”. There are pros and cons.

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whaletacochamp t1_j248jbh wrote

Totally, but the rhetoric that now a bachelor's is worthless is total bullshit propagated by academia and the finances driving education in our country unfortunately.

But you're right, my dad has been a mechanic all of his life. Unfortunately this is probably the worst paid trade especially for regular consumer vehicles. He makes pretty good money now but he was always useless on the weekends because he would be so sore and tired and he is at the point now where he HAS to change careers because his body can't do it anymore. He has also never had benefits or retirement. That being said, guys he worked with when he was 30 now make 6 figures doing the same thing other places. So again it's way more complex than "you NEED a graduate degree these days"

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mr_chip_douglas t1_j24cgy1 wrote

Also the rhetoric of “I know insert trade that make six figures” is kind of bogus too. Again, been in the trades my whole life. It’s extremely rare to make that before late career, not living somewhere like NYC, or without insane overtime. Still, a realistic 40k-60k about 3-6 years into a trade with no formal education or training required is NOTHING to sneeze at these days.

Again, career tradesman and have zero regrets. I found a cushy job at a university that pays well and couldn’t be happier. That being said, I have a daughter. She is going to college.

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whaletacochamp t1_j24qeav wrote

>I have a daughter. She is going to college

Hopefully at the school where you work lol. My dad tried for years to become a fleet mechanic at UVM so that my sister and I could get free tuition. Applied for and got the job shortly before my sister started applying for college but had second thoughts about leaving his old job since he was working for a friend. Sister said there was NO WAY she would every stay in state so my dad declined the job offer.

Guess who ended up going to school in state? Would have saved my parents, sister, and I about $150-$200k overall if he had taken the job!

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tadamhicks t1_j23v13b wrote

Right and wrong. I mean, yeah there’s tons of need for tradespeople and a lot of them make really good dough, but they cap out whereas people who know how to think critically end up having much higher total life earnings. They’ve done tons of studies on this.

The catch is that not everyone who goes to college actually learns how to think, and a lot come out no better off for having gone. Similarly, it’s not as though someone who doesn’t go can’t also achieve education. College is just the more straightforward path to ensuring it as a possibility.

The parallel is the tech industry. Lots of coders who just do boot camps and learn coding when young. They jump in and make 6 figures fast, but they cap out. Meanwhile college degree holders in subjects like anthropology or marketing join the same companies and work through the ranks, start off way lower but end up in leadership later in life making more like seven figures as they settle into the C-suite.

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whaletacochamp t1_j23ve1o wrote

I stopped reading when you insinuated that tradespeople don’t need to know how to think critically. I can’t take anything else you say seriously after that my man.

Yes it’s true that a lot of trades cap out, but it’s also true that a lot of people with masters and PhDs never make more than 6 figures. At the end of the day critical thinking is not the deciding factor.

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tadamhicks t1_j23w3px wrote

Since I didn’t say it and you felt I insinuated it then you’re displaying an inability to think critically. If you had read on I said nothing is stopping anyone from learning to think critically.

BTW there’s a difference between needing to and being able to. Plenty of my trades-person friends are the smartest people I know, and boy howdy do I have some dumb friends that made it through college. College is not insurance to greatness by any means. Heck one of the happiest people I know is a guy who has a PhD in biology and started a moving company. He’s fit as hell because he just hauls stuff all day. He’s his own boss so he can take off days whenever he wants. But I will also add that the reason he makes that work for him is the same reason he was capable of achieving a PhD…and just like college cam seem like a scam I think there’s an illusion that everyone skipping it can jump into a 6 figure trade, which also isn’t true.

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whaletacochamp t1_j243th1 wrote

>Since I didn’t say it and you felt I insinuated it then you’re displaying an inability to think critically.

You literally did say it..."trades people can make a lot of dough whereas people who know how to think critically"

You don't need much critical thinking or reading comprehension skills to understand what you meant by this. And just because you go on to say that a lot of college grads don't have critical thinking skills doesn't make your other comment ok/true. Honestly most of the people I know in the trades have better critical and practical thinking skills than most college grads that I know since most college grads can't think outside of what they've been taught/told.

Your last paragraph (really last line) here is all true, but it took you making some silly points to get there.

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tadamhicks t1_j2447ky wrote

Nah man, the point I was 100% intending to make was that you don’t get rich by being a trades person, you get rich by being smart. I never implied college is the only way to get smart. But I did say it’s a much easier path to get smart than trying to do it when you’re tired from working all day at your trade, at least when you’re not already a bright bulb.

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cpujockey t1_j240gsc wrote

> At the end of the day critical thinking is not the deciding factor.

if that was the case the C-Suite would be doing my job...

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whaletacochamp t1_j242xvj wrote

You're misunderstanding. The folks in trades are doing just as much critical thinking as you CPU jockeys. So there's no difference in critical thinking ability or amount - just different things to think critically about.

Troubleshooting a very complex electrical or plumbing system is really not that far from troubleshooting a broken code or something along those lines, and often requires more peripheral knowledge and physical skill than coding does.

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cpujockey t1_j2437iu wrote

That sort of knowledge can be learned hands-on and with experience. I've built my career on experience alone. I have a lot of faith in folks to be more than the sum of their parts.

You'd be surprised how much you can learn on your own especially when it comes to small business accounting. QuickBooks and other software really help streamline the process of managing your own bookkeeping. Additionally you can hire things like a tax service or even a bookkeeper if need be. There are many services to help in this regard.

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tadamhicks t1_j244m2e wrote

Good trades people is what you’re talking about. Know how many shit ones live in my town? Of course they’re the only ones with free space in their books, too. All the tools, none of the brains.

And yeah, the best plumbers and electricians in town are friggin’ wizards.

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cpujockey t1_j240edi wrote

> Right and wrong. I mean, yeah there’s tons of need for tradespeople and a lot of them make really good dough, but they cap out

you only cap out if you don't keep learning more about your trade and pickup new skills outside of your trade. In this market - you can pretty much charge what you want because there is a 6 month or more lead to get work done, or even get a call back.

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tadamhicks t1_j240qbl wrote

Yeah but whether you bill by hour or project there’s still only so much time in the day. To break the bubble you have to figure out how to scale, like by starting a company and hiring. And at that point you’re not a trades person anymore, you’re an entrepreneur.

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cpujockey t1_j241pjz wrote

> And at that point you’re not a trades person anymore, you’re an entrepreneur.

there's nothing wrong with that.

I myself owned a business before the pandemic hit doing IT services, and I had to eventually start bringing on part time help to get shit done. Made a good amount of paper here and there. Wouldn't trade that experience for anything.

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tadamhicks t1_j242gcm wrote

Agree, nothing at all wrong with it. I’m just trying to point out that there’s a spectrum out there. One of my most successful trades oriented friends went this route and ended up going back to college to study accounting and finance anyway, because they needed to know that stuff to scale their landscaping business well.

The thread is about how college is a waste and while I get that perspective, I think it’s misrepresented. I might be sensitive as I have a kid about to go on this journey…

What I think IS wasteful is college with no purpose. It’s an incredible opportunity, and many kids benefit from not pursuing it right out of high school because the endeavor is lost on them…or going slower through it. It’s unfortunate that it has become so expensive, though.

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cpujockey t1_j244lp3 wrote

I agree with your points. Frankly you are quite respectable and decent, which is a change from a lot of the folks that comment in these threads.

My belief is that we should be encouraging youth to explore many different trades and occupations before the conversation of college comes up. Some folks have talent in things they've never tried or had interest in - so giving these things a try might unlock some sort of latent potential in people.

I don't want to toot my own horn - but I come from an awful educational background, special ed til 5th grade, struggled with literacy, poor math abilities and I some how found computers made sense and it changed my life. I hope that for folks struggling out there that maybe there is something out there for them like computers are for me - an accidental hobby turned career with a most unlikely individual.

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tadamhicks t1_j245qbe wrote

I’m all for finding the fit. I love the freedom we have in our culture but it also means that we’re free to run the wrong direction quite easily. As parents we can make it worse by telling our kids to pursue their dreams, even when they’re shit at it.

It’s super hard to find out what we’re good at and then hard work to invest in honing that talent. Many people never figure that out about themselves.

As for exploration, agree wholeheartedly. As someone who did go to college, one of the aspects I valued more than any other was the emphasis on exactly that: exploration. The first two years are all about broadening the individual’s understanding of different areas and giving them a broad base, at least in major universities. They want you to know how to write and communicate clearly, but also to understand how science is performed, and to be able to understand symbolic logic (maths). Then you get to learn about political theory and world cultures, all before pursuing your major. It’s pretty cool. And yes, expensive.

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Eagle_Arm t1_j246c25 wrote

Yeah, the old schtick about going to college to "learn how to learn and think critically." That's all bullshit. College isn't causing people to think critically or challenge ideas. At this point, it's about agreeing to what they want you to agree to.

You're also selecting the highest earners for college degrees, so the CEOs and what not? The 1%ers. Those critical thinker high-earners aren't restricted to college grads.

Edit: autocorrect messing up words.

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tadamhicks t1_j24aoq1 wrote

Sure, but middle management in large consulting firms also make $500k-$1m. Individual contributors can easily make over $300K and more. Software engineers I interview are asking for $200-300 out of college.

I think college gives you a path to that much easier than that outside of college. The other thing they’ve researched is life outcomes from people of education. Just like thinking isn’t only achieved in college, education can be had outside of college, but how many people pursue education on their own? I applaud those that do, and similarly having it rammed down your throat in college also doesn’t mean you’ll absorb it. At the end of the day, though, educated people make better decisions for themselves about life and have better life outcomes.

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Eagle_Arm t1_j24bsx9 wrote

Haha, ok $500-$1M for middle management.....and what percentage of college grads do you think are actually getting that? 1% of college grads, maybe and that's a pretty big maybe.

And asking for vs. getting are two different outcomes.

Both examples seem like some pulled out of ass numbers.

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tadamhicks t1_j24d0ev wrote

It’s not a direct correlation from college to middle management consulting jobs. I’m illustrating a point and there are a whole lot more of these jobs than you think.

There are also folks like my old boss with the PhD who started a moving company so he could kayak when the rivers were up. Or like the carpenter and ski patroller friend I know in Summit County.

You’re semi-wrong about the asking and getting. They’re not accepting my offers, lower than what they’re asking…and they’re ending up employed. The delta isn’t so great, either, to assume they’re not making stupid amounts of money for early-mid 20 year olds that can live anywhere they want.

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Eagle_Arm t1_j24pc1z wrote

You're illustrating a fake created point with no bearing on the outcome.

I'll also assume 99% of billionaires also have college degrees. That doesn't mean they are billionaires because of college.

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tadamhicks t1_j24qz08 wrote

I’d argue that they’re billionaires because they’re smart and educated. I’d also argue it’s much easier to obtain education when it’s your job to do so than a hobby in your spare time.

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Eagle_Arm t1_j24rosu wrote

And a college degree has nothing to do with that.

I'd also argue when people attend college, that's their job and it's not just a hobby, no different than a billionaire

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Less-Bodybuilder3537 t1_j21xtbc wrote

I hate it too. And I went to UVM. But I really think looking back it would have made for sense to save the money and go to a smaller less expensive community college. Yes the experience isn’t the same but you said it best. It really is the new high school diploma. And especially if you want a career that requires lots of years of school it’s the way to go.

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cpujockey t1_j2404am wrote

> A four-year degree is the new high school diploma. It's meaningless.

agreed.

you can do quite well for yourself these days if you go into the trades or even opt for vocational tech during high school via BTC.

college is a scam. I'm making 80k a year with just a high school diploma, if I can do it - so can you.

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