Submitted by Unique-Public-8594 t3_1096aws in vermont

At a 4-way stop intersection:

  1. When one car/person arrives obviously first, they go first.

  2. If two arrive at the same time, skip the extra friendly and courteous game. This isn’t a contest to see who is most polite. The car/person on the right goes first.

  3. Going straight trumps turning.

  4. Turning right trumps turning left.



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thatswhatipayyoufor t1_j3whhgb wrote

Don't be nice, be predictable!


naidim t1_j3wmis9 wrote

This can't be stated enough. Drive predictably so everyone else can respond predictably. If you have the right of way, TAKE IT.


thatswhatipayyoufor t1_j3wmr94 wrote

My favorite is people stopping on main roads to let traffic in, especially when there was no initial stop in traffic flow


yoodle34 t1_j3wu887 wrote

This drives me crazy every time it happens


smellyshellybelly t1_j40ukzb wrote

"There's nothing behind you! I would have already gone if you hadn't stopped!" I stare until they take their right of way, zooming off in misplaced anger.


hoooch t1_j3wy27g wrote

Stated differently, don’t be a nicehole!


aren3141 t1_j3xb595 wrote

Being predictable is nice, the nicest thing you can do in the road


RandolphCarter15 t1_j3z06ai wrote

YES. That drives me crazy around here. Like people suddenly stopping to let me pull onto the road but I have to gun it to avoid other oncoming cars. Just follow the right of way!


noparticularpoint t1_j3ywg30 wrote

Being predictable IS being nice. It lets everything flow smoothly, everyone gets where they're going quicker, and that's nice.


Revolutionary_Ant784 t1_j3zp4w8 wrote

Thank you. Someone in oncoming traffic stopped in their lane in a 40mph zone to let someone turn left into their driveway. Like wtf you’re asking to get rear ended.


huskers2468 t1_j3xjlf1 wrote

I don't think I'll ever get used to someone stopping on the far lane to let me take a left out of a store. Not a light or a stop sign, in the middle of the road.

They always smile and wave, so I do the same. I just don't want to see that nice person get rear-ended.


meowbird t1_j3yupqd wrote

I sometimes refuse to go, because, well, they are creating a traffic hazard, and should start to learn that not everyone appreciates that.


eddiesmom t1_j42ilmb wrote

Same here, especially when I'm on my motorcycle; I will turn my head side to side very deliberately "No" while keeping my eyeballs peeled for the vehicle behind them who decided to pass "the idiot" in front of them.


kittybellyfulloflies t1_j3whi38 wrote

Friend from Boston says she absolutely hates Vermont drivers because the friendliness can actually create dangerous situations. I see it all the time now

Edit: also, fuck anyone who stops in the middle of a roundabout to let folks in. Absolutely unhinges me every time... Perfect example of my above comment


numetalbeatsjazz t1_j3wp3vf wrote

I've been waived into traffic by someone "trying to be nice" so many times here. I've flat out refused and then it becomes a standoff of the "nice" person demanding I pull out when I can't see past their stupid SUV into oncoming traffic. I'd rather wait 15 minutes trying to turn left onto a road than have some fucking asshole stop traffic just so they can feel good about themselves.


Nicetoseeyaagain t1_j3wiyxr wrote

I am from MA and my husband is a Vermonter (we are now living in VT) and I get annoyed with him for this all the time. There is a point where you are being too nice and it causes confusion. The worst is being in a line of a cars sitting through a green light because the first car isn’t paying attention and everyone is “too nice” to honk. 🤯


ciaohow t1_j3wmmhv wrote

I TAPPED my horn so, so gently once when someone was stopped at a green light, and I swear to you every single person on the street turned to stare at who the rude person was (me, it was me).


BudsKind802 t1_j3xtclo wrote

I always appreciate that the quick honk reminder to them to get off their phone and driving at a stop light is so often met with a middle finger. "Too nice" indeed.


afuera0 t1_j3x6qw7 wrote

How long did you wait?


bigtimesauce t1_j3xfp3h wrote

Longer than 2 seconds and I’m on the horn. You’re driving, pay some fucking attention.


ciaohow t1_j3xy7mk wrote

Long enough to establish they were truly tuned out and not just fumbling. I'm a native midwesterner - we don't like naked aggression either!


MissJudgeGaming t1_j3wpq0y wrote

Waving people ahead gives them unnecessary initiative to move immediately and without checking. This is a known impact of being too nice, as sad as it is.

Yes, you're being polite by waving them in. No, you're creating additional traffic AND potentially putting everyone at risk. Drive predictably and assume others will not, then everyone can make it home.


smellyshellybelly t1_j41slj2 wrote

Happened to multiple people I know....driver stopped on a four-lane road waiting to turn left, oncoming traffic in the lane closest to them stops and waives them through, they get t-boned by a car in the far lane.


SRTie4k t1_j3wthyr wrote

The worst is stopping in the middle of an active lane of traffic to let someone in/out. I can't count the amount of times I've seen that.


KittenLOVER999 t1_j3zafly wrote

Totaled my car driving to Best Buy in Williston a few years back because someone in the lane next to me stopped to allow someone to turn into the police station without noticing that the right hand lane was still going 35 oblivious to their “kindness”


sound_of_apocalypto t1_j3wtbvm wrote

Ironic to think of a Bostonian worried about creating dangerous driving situations.


MontEcola t1_j3wx4v3 wrote

Nah. That is not true.

I spent 20 years driving in places like Seattle, Oregon, Nashville, Denver and California. This whole time, I had this impression of Mass-holes being crazy on the road.

Then I returned home. I started driving in Boston, Vermont, the Maine coast, and highways in New Hampshire.

Boston and Maine drivers were delightful. When I put on my turn signal in traffic, there was space for me to fit. When I was on the freeway, people would pass and then move right. I rarely saw a slow car camping in the fast lane. The flow of traffic is amazing. I always had room to go where I signaled, or , where it was my right of way. At an intersection, people took their turns, and got out of the way. Not one car tailgated me. Not one car has cut me off. Not one driver or passenger gave me 'stink eye' or a middle finger in traffic. Not one car pulled out of a driveway in reverse, across 2 or 3 lanes of traffic, to go the other way. Not one car tried to make a left turn across traffic when it was not safe. (They turned right, and made a safe U turn. ) These are regular hazards in those other places.


sound_of_apocalypto t1_j3x5oar wrote

Okay, I guess it's just me that feels like driving in Boston is taking my life into my hands.


GaleTheThird t1_j3xs203 wrote

Boston is statistically one of the country's safest major cities to drive in, if not the safest. Iirc Massachusetts rates pretty highly as well


Loudergood t1_j3yqyfl wrote

You just have to get used to the structured madness.


zdiggler t1_j3wrn7j wrote

I hate when people don't follow basic right-of-way rules.


Oeslian t1_j3wucdd wrote

I’m from the Bay Area originally, I honestly think Vermonters are worse drivers. They are very good about driving safely in winter conditions, even when it’s not winter. However, I have noticed many Vermont drivers are oblivious to any other cars on the road. I regularly get pushed out of my lane, or have people pull right out in front of me and go 15 under while I am cruising at the limit making me slam my brakes. I see this sort of behavior so often it seems endemic to the state. I have even seen it within my own social circle from people who claim to be safe drivers.


lavransson t1_j3x1iw1 wrote

I'm from the Washington DC area originally, and when I first lived in Vermont I thought the drivers were better. I do still prefer driving and living in Vermont by miles.

But like you, I'm noticing that Vermont drivers do pull out in front of you more. I was taught, "If you turn from a side road into a main road and cause the driver behind you to brake, then you should not have pulled out, you should have waited (or accelerated faster)." Many drivers in Vermont don't do this.

I also see a surprising number of red light runners, more than in DC (per capita). I am not sure why this is, but I figure it's two things: people thinking, (1) "There's hardly anyone out here on the roads, what difference does it make?" and (2) "There a less than 1% chance of a police officer being around, so I'm just going to run this light."


texmarie t1_j3xktv5 wrote

Still better than Maryland drivers though!


pondusedtobeupthere t1_j3zaumy wrote

No way in hell there are more red light runners in VT than the District. I’ve driven all over the country, and I’ll take a courteous, friendly VT driver over any other driver in any other state, hands down!


lavransson t1_j3zb44r wrote

I mean that per capita, not absolute. I stand by what I wrote. I’m really surprised at how often people glaringly and casually run red lights in Vermont.


pondusedtobeupthere t1_j3zbt0q wrote

I live in the DMV. I stand by my response.


lavransson t1_j3zhpxt wrote

I do like VT waaaay driving better. People in the DMV are so aggressive and intense. I literally drive with one hand over the horn. I’m 4 years in Vermont, I think I’ve honked the horn once.


readyreadyvt t1_j40tucg wrote

Red light running is relatively new here, at least at the levels it’s happening. I rarely saw this when I moved here 25 years ago. In the last 5-7 years, it’s really picked up. Honestly, I’ve assumed it’s a custom brought from elsewhere.

The longtime Vermont habit that blows my mind is passing on the shoulder (often through an intersection) when the car in front of them is turning left — without checking opposing traffic.


SrirachaCashews t1_j3z0z2t wrote

I think our aging population has a lot to do with this. The pull out in front of you/drive 15 under is a classic old person move


bigtimesauce t1_j3xfkxq wrote

The drivers here are terrible, honestly one of my least favorite things about VT.


sugarplummed t1_j433b2g wrote

I guess my opinion is way different. I'm from Seattle area and other then lots of speeding on your freeways I found Vt drivers to be much less aggressive then the Seattle area. I found with the east Coast in general ppl love driving really fast on the freeway. I mean we're all driving about 10 over out here, but on the east coast I'm like man they like driving 20-30 over, dang.

But here on the west coast, Ppl are just nuts out here. Like I commented elsewhere, so much disregard for red lights, stop signs out here. It's about getting in front of the next guy and the next guy.

I'll take driving in Vermont any day, lol.


bigtimesauce t1_j43c6k4 wrote

I’ll take aggressive but predictable drivers over overly courteous dickheads that don’t know how to use a turn signal any day of the week.


sugarplummed t1_j43g0dn wrote

I hope I didn't give the impression that drivers in the Seattle area are predictable. they are aggressive and unpredictable, which is why it's not uncommon when a light turns green here that folks don't go because you have to see how many assholes are going to continue on their merry way ignoring their red light.

I hate the over courteous thing as well. I t-boned a vehicle 3 years ago because I was driving in the far lane and the other two lanes were backed up so they courteously waved this dumb lady through and she turned right in front of me. Lady didn't even look. Injured my leg and hip and wrist trying my damnedest to stop, not to mention the whiplash. Still makes me so angry, my daughter and I were injured, our almost brand new car will forever have an accident on it's history. 18 months of pain, doctors visits, PT. All because a couple of idiots thought they'd be courteous. We're better now, but I still have random pain in my rt knee and hip.


raptor3x t1_j3ya8m2 wrote

> Friend from Boston says she absolutely hates Vermont drivers because the friendliness can actually create dangerous situations. I see it all the time now

It's not really a VT thing, it's a rural driver thing. The whole being super friendly while driving and making exceptions works fine when there's almost no traffic to deal with but it quickly becomes problematic as traffic density increases. It takes a little while for rural drivers to learn that ruthlessly enforcing traffic pattern rules is actually the most polite way to drive.


wholeWheatButterfly t1_j40yd3h wrote

I almost got in an accident this fall because someone stopped to let someone pull into the road from a store, and there were two lanes, so the person pulling in decides to go into the second lane, where of course they couldn't see oncoming traffic (me). And then I witnessed the same thing happen a month later.

To be fair, the person pulling in is being a lot dumber than the person letting them pull in but it frustrates me.

And this other time I was pulling out of my driveway, and sometimes I have to wait for a few cars to go by.. this person stops to let me come out, but there were like 4 cars behind them! Like, I can wait 15 seconds lol I don't need to hold up a bunch of people.

Anyway, rant over. Back to loving our great state 😅


sugarplummed t1_j431xn2 wrote

Wow, all these posts about this. Had no idea, hate it when ppl do that.

Things are getting worse and worse in the Seattle- Eastside area. Running red lights is getting so bad here. Not just one person, but I've watched 5 cars go through the red light after the other direction turns green. Ppl just driving straight through 4 wait stops. And then you get that rando who stops in the roundabout cause they don't understand how roundabouts work. Lots of speeding and aggressive driving. Are they really late for work or are they just angry? How can that many ppl always be late for work? I don't get that anyway, just leave early man, how hard can it be? I work in the medical field, we can't be late for work!


Nickmorgan19457 t1_j3wd5m5 wrote

The Vermont standoff


pikeminnow t1_j3x8e1l wrote

i think being able to defuse a vermont standoff safely should be the boundary between flatlander and woodchuck


bakerton t1_j3wjvcl wrote

I also hate when I'm trying to cross a street with no crosswalk and the ONE car coming slows down and stops for me, like bro, we both would have been on our way faster if you maintained speed and kept driving.


texmarie t1_j3xlhjz wrote

Ha, I always pretend I’m not going to cross the street. Like aggressively look at my phone while facing away from the street. My garage is across the street from my house, but not directly—I have to walk down the road a bit. I can’t tell you how many times a car stops and insists on letting me cross in front only to be annoyed that they’re now stuck going walking speed for a few yards.


ceiffhikare t1_j3wd7dv wrote

I loathe Nice people in traffic. Like yeah i appreciate what you are trying to do but jfc just worry about yourself and GTFO my way!


mug_maille t1_j3wfx8v wrote

"Oh you wish to enter the rotary? Here let me stop and let you in."

"I see you want to merge onto the interstate, I'm going to slow down to 20 mph to let you in".


somewhere_in_VT t1_j3wiiue wrote

But whatever you do, only scrape off enough ice from your windshield to have a peep hole. Oh and def don’t remove snow from your headlights either..


TheTowerBard t1_j3wkzl4 wrote

Truck bro on 91 last Sunday had chunks of snow and ice flying off the back. I flashed him thinking he might look out the back and see it. He proceeded to slow down, get behind me, and follow me while occasionally flashing his lights for about 45 minutes before he got bored and got off the highway.

Anyway, we need better mental health resources in Vt 🤷‍♂️


somewhere_in_VT t1_j3wsu5x wrote

It’s honestly true. There’s so much road rage and rage in general, and peoples mental states are not getting better these days.. still love Vermont tho.


[deleted] t1_j3yx4xj wrote



TheTowerBard t1_j3yxpuc wrote

I know it. That’s the thing about truck bros like this though, they’re only tough in their truck. I’m a pretty big dude and I’m covered in tattoos. Their demeanor shifts when I step out of my little Prius 🤟


chickens6 t1_j3wncdi wrote

Extra politeness also kills pedestrians. No, I won't cross the street while the light is green so I can get hit by the car coming the opposite direction. But thanks for waving me out.


Definitelynotcal1gul t1_j3xkq69 wrote

First in, first out. Tie goes to the right. Even simpler.


JollyHateGiant t1_j3xx8t4 wrote

How about adding "straight don't wait?" I feel like that's an important rule too.


MontEcola t1_j3wuiaj wrote

Use your turn signal.

Do what is expected. Go when it is your turn. Standing in the way when it is your turn to go is annoying. And not safe. So move it out of the way.


Jsr1 t1_j3wcvgw wrote

I had a issue yesterday. He was there 1st and refused to go


Avocet330 t1_j3wk2cl wrote

Rule 1 is pretty easy to follow - everyone understands that.

Rules 2-4 are a balance. It's better (defensive driving) to not assume that other people 1) know all the rules, or 2) have the same interpretation of "which of us was first" that you do, or 3) are using their turn signals appropriately.

An early and highly visible wave ceding the right of way is safer and can even end up faster than the start/stop hiccup of both people assuming they had the ROW.

But people who stop in the middle of the road for no reason other than to let someone turn into traffic 10 seconds before there would have been an opening anyway.... get outta here.


VT_Racer t1_j3wntnu wrote

If you have a license you should know all the rules


uncle_milky t1_j3x87ab wrote

You don’t have to get 100% to pass the test 🤷


VT_Racer t1_j3xajbr wrote

That doesnt mean you stop learning after the test, thats only the beginning.


Avocet330 t1_j3ydg98 wrote

While I do agree, the word "should" is doing some heavy lifting in that statement.

It would be an interesting Church Street poll question!


TheTowerBard t1_j3wmsdh wrote

You know, when we are all on foot walking around we seem to understand being polite is a good thing. We hold doors for people. We say lovely things like “after you” and then willingly walk a little slower behind the elderly person. For some reason when some of you get into a vehicle you lose all sense of humanity. You tailgate grandma, pass her at dangerous times, and curse and her name when she waves you through the four-way. Listen bros, I want to be doing ten over the limit as well, but grandma is out for a drive and I have enough respect to not terrorize her. She’s been through enough.

I even see it reflected in the comments on this thread. Here’s the thing, you all need to slow the hell down and take some deep breaths on the road. Our roads are getting more dangerous nationwide. No matter how much you vent about it on Reddit, people still aren’t going to know all of the rules. And many people who do know all of the rules will still choose to be kind and say “after you” at the four-way, or they may go the other way and tear through without stopping. So the rest of us need to expect that. Lead with kindness. Show the person showing you kindness some back, and if someone’s kindness annoys you because “the rules” then maybe reflect on that.

The issue on our roads is the assholes not stopping at the stop sign, not the friendly neighbor who waved you through even though it was technically wasn’t their turn. And if you’re behind the the person that skipped their turn, you’ll survive. Let’s all pull up our big kid britches and lead with kindness, even when we feel someone else has dropped the kindness ball.


LitherLily t1_j3wnewf wrote

Kindness has no place in traffic.

But yes, the speeding and road rage I’ve encountered in VT pales to anything I ever saw in Boston. It’s truly bizarre.


rumpusbutnotwild t1_j3x7656 wrote

Since you are getting down-votes I feel this statement bears repeating: "Don't be nice, be predictable!". Predictability (following the rules of the road) is much safer than trying to be nice. Being nice on the road = unpredictable = unsafe.


[deleted] t1_j3x00ww wrote

Bruh what? Driving is the most dangerous thing most people do. We should absolutely treat people with kindness on the road.


raptor3x t1_j3yb49z wrote

The "kindness" the post is describing basically amounts to "ignore the rules of driving and do whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy". If you want to be kind then following traffic pattern rules is the best way to do it.


LitherLily t1_j3x1zt1 wrote

The “kindness” illustrated in the post I was replying to is merely bad, dangerous driving. Following the rules of the road is safer than being “nice” about it.


TheTowerBard t1_j3x6op7 wrote

The rules of the road say you don't have to let someone merge into your lane, yet if someone puts on their blinker most of us do because we aren't assholes. It also helps keep traffic moving for all. Kindness very much has a place everywhere and if you think it doesn't I strongly recommend some self reflection.

And yes, my god, here in VT we can share a little kindness with our fellow road dogs. This sub constantly complains about the shitty attitudes and behaviors from out of staters yet here you numnuts are arguing in favor of being an asshole to people on our very calm, uncongested VT roads. Give a smile and a wave to the person who waved you through. Don't tailgate the slowpoke. Accept that the world doesn't revolve around you and your wants.

And yeah man, I'll also encourage the slow pokes to be kind. You see a line of cars behind you and there's a pull off up ahead. Go ahead and take a little pit stop and let the other folks go by. Is this another form of kindness that has no place in traffic?


LitherLily t1_j3x7cno wrote

You are talking about something very different than what was described, though.

Waving someone through when it’s not their right of way is wrong, and is bad driving.


TheTowerBard t1_j3x8etr wrote

Oh no!! Someone did a kindness at an inappropriate time on our very quiet VT roads that never have actual traffic. Whatever will we do?! I mean, they waved you through and now it's going to take the person behind them ten more seconds to get to their destination. The horror!! To Reddit! We must get the word out! A rule has been broken with an attempt at kindness, nooooooooooooooooooo!!!


LitherLily t1_j3x8tei wrote

If there is an accident (which there are plenty of, even with very little traffic) the person who is going against the right of way is at fault.


TheTowerBard t1_j3xah32 wrote

Ok. I'm happy that has been established. Lovely. Yet over here in reality waving someone through out of turn at a four way is not an actual societal issue nor a cause of many accidents. It's just something that annoys you and OP because you have control issues and it bothers you when people don't do "what they are supposed to." That's the vibe you are all giving off, anyway.

The majority of accidents are caused by impatient careless schmucks that got needlessly overly annoyed by someone else on the road and and are now tantruming about it in some way. So maybe calm down and give a friendly wave to the "MASSIVE JERK" who didn't know the rules and move on with life. You might have an argument in highly populated areas, but that ain't VT my friend. You and the 3 other people at the four-way can figure it out even if there weren't any rules.

Everyone's all "In Vermont you do what you want" until someone's grandma waves them through a four-way out of turn. Sheesh.


LitherLily t1_j3xb23x wrote

Funny, my comment also acknowledged the speeding and rage issues that are displayed on the VT roads … and your responses(!)


TheTowerBard t1_j3xbrzh wrote

Ah yes, because encouraging kindness (even while being admittedly sarcastic) equates to raging. You ok?

Honestly though, the issue is the people that are mad about people being kind. On VT roads of all places. Double sheesh. Shit, that might even be a mega sheesh.

Edit: to remove "bro." I took a look at your username and realized I might be mis-gendering you. My apologies for that. Everything else stands though.


darkbeagle t1_j41k1ks wrote

Friend don't bother fighting this one. let the flatlanders squabble and crow about "Defensive" driving in Vermont. Most of them say that they follow the rules but I bet money that if they paid attention to what they re doing they pick and choose which rules they follow as much as any Vermonter, just not in the same way.


WUBERGE t1_j3yoka8 wrote

When we are "on foot walking around," we're not going to kill someone if we bump into them by accident because we moved in an unexpected way. Kindness is fine there.

Your definition of kindness may not be the same as mine. This will cause you to behave unpredictably. Unpredictability while driving a vehicle gets people killed. There are very strict rules for how traffic is supposed to flow, and there are very good reasons for those rules.

Kindness while driving means following the rules so everyone can get home safely.

You are exactly the kind of person that the people in this thread are raging about, and what's worse is that you're smug and high and mighty about being "kind."


TheTowerBard t1_j3yrm9r wrote

Here’s the thing, people are going to be unpredictable. People are going to turn without using their blinker. People are going to go slower than you want to go when you are late for work. People are going to full on not even realize you are there. If you are driving and fully expecting everyone else to be predictable, you’re the issue. Someone won’t be. That’s a guarantee.

There’s also a lot more nuance to my response that you are ignoring. But ok, let’s focus on your words.

I don’t disagree with you. Let’s look pedestrians again. If we are talking about a group of humans sprinting down a track, yes someone doing something unpredictable can be an issue there. Just like how when we are flying down the highway someone doing something unpredictable can be bad. However, a group of human beings all at a full stop and one says “after you,” we’re all good. No issues. So let’s take this situation OP presents, four vehicles at a full stop. One person waves someone through. There is no issue here. A mild annoyance, sure, but this is not something that is causing danger on our roads.

But again, my point was bigger than this specific scenario. We do have an issue on our roads but it’s mostly from over aggressive drivers and folks who DON’T stop at stop signs. We also have decades of studies that show us very clearly that speed kills. More speed literally equates to more human deaths. Yet I’m not seeing any passion here for speeding. I’m not seeing any posts addressing the tailgating or unsafe passing that we see everywhere. So yeah, when I start seeing folks get worked up about that stuff I’ll believe they actually care about someone waving someone through a four way stop out of turn.


Definitelynotcal1gul t1_j3xl11p wrote

If they don't know the rules they shouldn't be driving.

Most people are terrible drivers, because of the attitude that "people don't need to know the rules".

Waving people through an intersection is a recipe for death. This has nothing to do with "kindness". You're driving a shuttle that can kill people. Follow the rules.


TheTowerBard t1_j3xr72v wrote

If everyone is coming to a complete stop at the stop sign and being aware of what other drivers are doing, no one is dying from any accident that could result from this situation. Give me a break. The extreme worst case scenario is a very minor fender bender.

We are discussing a situation that everyone is supposedly starting from a complete stop. When it's your turn, do you floor it? Do you have a vehicle that can go from 0-60 by the time it takes to clear the stop sign? This is silly.

Also, the rules have changed since the old couple down the road got their license. So maybe take some deep breaths and be nice to your neighbors even when they don't do what "they are supposed to." That way, maybe everyone else will be nice to your loved ones when they are out and about and maybe don't know the rules. Of all the actual issues we need address regarding road safety, being waved through an intersection out of turn isn't one of them.


Definitelynotcal1gul t1_j3xxldb wrote

Nope, still disagree. You're driving a missile. Learn the rules. Being old is not an excuse.


TheTowerBard t1_j3xzant wrote

aCtUaLLy if you are stopped at the stop sign when meemaw waves you through you are not technically driving in that moment. You’re just sitting still in potential missile.

Hey man, I get it. Old folks annoy me sometime too. But let’s have a little respect for them, huh? Meemaw has been through enough in this life without people being jerks about her being kind when she “isn’t supposed to.”


Definitelynotcal1gul t1_j3y0sxd wrote

Let me rephrase your point:

"Gun safety isn't that important. Memaw is old, she can't remember things like 'trigger discipline'. When she's holding a gun and pointing it at you, remember to smile and nod".


TheTowerBard t1_j3y1nm7 wrote

Ah. I see the straw men have entered the conversation. How very productive and mature.

Please my dudebro, by all means, take this energy and apply it to the people that pass cars when it’s not a passing lane. Apply it to the people that carelessly drift out of their lanes. Apply to the situations that are actual issues on our roads.


Definitelynotcal1gul t1_j3ygf4k wrote

/r/idiotsincars Lots of situations there if you need examples.

P.S. Anecdotes aren't straw men.


TheTowerBard t1_j3yhu21 wrote

I love that sub. Big fan. Yet I have never once seen an accident there that started from people at a four way stop when all were stopped and one person waved to let another go. Not once. It’s just not an actual thing my dude. You know what I do see a lot there? Over aggressive assholes that need to take a giant chill pill.

And yes, straw man arguments most certainly can be anecdotes that do not apply to the conversation at hand no matter how hard you try to make them apply. In this case, going from a discussion about being waved through a 4 way stop out of turn to not saying anything to meemaw about her lacking trigger disciple is completely insane. Ridiculously absurd. Like hilariously dumb. So yeah, straw man.


Definitelynotcal1gul t1_j3yjrs2 wrote

You've never seen an accident at a 4 way stop caused by an idiot? Dang, consider yourself lucky. No wonder you're so positive about driving.


TheTowerBard t1_j3yl70n wrote

Of course I have. Always by someone who didn’t stop. Not once have I seen one stem from a situation where everyone came to a complete stop and someone waved someone else through out of turn. Please, prove me wrong with actual evidence. You can’t and won’t because it’s not a thing. The accidents that occur at 4-way stops are almost entirely caused by people not coming to a complete stop or trying to rush themselves through out of turn. You’re being laughably absurd here.

Please go ahead and look up the leading causes of accidents. None of them are “someone got waved through a four way stop out of turn.” They almost are all caused by speeding, rushing, or distracted driving. None of those things apply to someone at a complete stop waving for someone else who is also at a complete stop to go first. Get real.

And until I see you arguing on here against anyone going even one mph over the limit (something 99% of us do every single day) I’m going to call BS on you caring about meemaw not knowing the four way stop rules. Speeding is scientifically proven to cost lives. Extensive studies have been done that show how more speed equates to more human deaths. So where is all your energy about speeding? Not just you, but everyone else in this thread too. Instead everyone is just annoyed with a well intentioned person causing no one any harm but maybe a few seconds of delay. Get a grip.


Definitelynotcal1gul t1_j3ymo0g wrote

Well that's great for you. I see accidents all the time at my local traffic circle from people "waiting in the middle" for other folks at a yield sign.

Two or three days ago at a 2 way stop sign near me, I almost witnessed an accident because someone "waved" on oncoming traffic to take a left. Tires screeching and everything from the cross traffic.

So I guess you're lucky! I have absolutely seen accidents caused by "being nice" and ignoring the rules.


TheTowerBard t1_j3yndhv wrote

Those things you describe are not 4-way stops which is what this discussion is about. Traffic circles have very different rules and very different consequences for not following the rules. I’m in full agreement there are lots of situations where idiots cause dangerous situations. Everyone stopped at a 4-way stop isn’t one of them. Someone NOT stopping at a 4-way would be one though.

And yeah dude, we’re also talking about VT here. Have you driven in other places? VT roads are mostly very chill and relaxed compared to many places. We barely have any actual traffic. It’s just not really a thing here. The main issue in VT roads is speed, distracted driving, and drunk driving.


FinalSagan t1_j3y2krf wrote

FYI you can pass on double yellow in VT, provided it’s clear and safe of course.


TheTowerBard t1_j3y9781 wrote

Right. “Provided it’s clear and…” that part is usually missing.


FinalSagan t1_j3yg5d2 wrote

Lmao, maybe change your rant to “passing illegally” then


zdiggler t1_j3wrfot wrote

I always go!!

If you don't go I GO is my motto.


DenverITGuy t1_j3z49xm wrote

Just had a similar conversation with my fiancee.

The car in front of us stopped to "be nice and let the other car go"

NO! Do not stop the flow of traffic to 'be nice' to other cars. They were at a stop sign. They can wait. This is how accidents happen.


ReasonableLiving5958 t1_j3xmd3u wrote

Dear people who keep letting cars in when traffic is backed up for half a mile.

Fuck you. You're pissing off, slowing down and destroying the flow of traffic for 50 cars behind you to please someone who doesn't give a shit about you.


casewood123 t1_j3y8tif wrote

Vermont has a lot of niceholes.


raptor3x t1_j3ybi28 wrote

Good lord that's the perfect term for it.


LanceFree t1_j3wn410 wrote

I thought the person heading North had the right a-way, then clockwise?


ChapcoTopGun t1_j3xbp53 wrote

Sorry I wasn’t trying to be polite, I was just referring to my stop sign rule book to determine who had the right of way in this particular situation


Unique-Public-8594 OP t1_j3xf5jo wrote

Every car needs a cheatsheet printed on the dash:


  1. First to arrive,

  2. the one on the right,

  3. The one going straight, and

  4. the one turning right.

Or maybe a speaker at the intersection.

Or painted words on the pavement.


FourteenthCylon t1_j3ygo5c wrote

I suggest we use Alaskan rules at a 4-way traffic stop. Right of way goes to whoever has the oldest truck.


ExpressionFamiliar98 t1_j40wdff wrote

Since this is about shitting on VT drivers… if the interstate is empty and I’m merging into the right lane, is it too much trouble to shift over to the left lane?


mannershmanners t1_j418j5c wrote

I’m from rural Texas and VT drivers are perplexing to me but I’ll take it over places where people drive super aggressively and scary. Although I did watch an Outback play chicken with an 18 wheeler on 7 yesterday.


DenisPOBrien t1_j3wv64h wrote

I moved here from New York City 20 years ago, I live in Burlington, the intersection to go to to experience this the best is King Street and Pine Street. Just a block away on Maple Street it runs effectively, but this intersection I speak of is the classic no you go, no you go. So I’m the guy… That just goes. I figure while everybody still thinking about it I can be across the intersection on my way. And we need another whole post on shooting laughs which is another Vermont phenomenon, which can get you killed!


ShinshinRenma t1_j3z90qy wrote

I don't live in BTV anymore, but I literally got hit by a truck on that intersection. I remember a wild car accident that happened there as well. You definitely get some people coming down the Dealer side of Pine who just charge that intersection in particular.


jonnyredshorts t1_j3wxwcw wrote

The Vermont Standoff. Less deadly than a Mexican Standoff, but far more infuriating.


Joe_Henshell t1_j3y7wfv wrote

I’ve driven in a lot of states throughout the country, Vermont might be my least favorite. Everyone here are such passive drivers to the point where it’s dangerous. Almost got in an accident just now because someone slammed on the breaks when they saw a yellow light cause god forbid we go through a yellow light.


raptor3x t1_j3y9tn7 wrote

I also enjoy how people try to get other drivers to go by waving to them through the glass without realizing glare often makes it nearly impossible to see through the windshield. Just flick your high beams to signal other drivers.


[deleted] t1_j3ycw1m wrote

It's called a Canadian Standoff


rootbeer9494 t1_j3yo3sa wrote

I can’t tell you how frustrating it is that so many drivers forget No. 2 completely; that is, of course, if they bother stopping, which is another conversation lol.


DifficultPen653 t1_j3yv6xo wrote

Just follow the G & R rule: “Gun it and Run it.” -Garcia, Reno 911


DenisPOBrien t1_j3z9sgb wrote

Well I’m sorry there. Like I said it’s a weird intersection it’s either like you said people gunning through it, or everybody going excuse me excuse me excuse me. Part of that is they didn’t really engineer a way to get across town in that direction so getting north to south or south to north of Burlington is nearly impossible, which exacerbates the problem!


SchwillyMaysHere t1_j3zjq6s wrote

When I get waved through I’ll sit there like a dickhead until they go. If, for some reason, they decide to go at the same time as me then the accident will be my fault.


Dr_JackMeoff t1_j3znpnb wrote

You also forgot "don't make eye contact."!


oldbeardedtech t1_j417ja6 wrote

Walking around Burlington gives me a front row seat for multiple "VT Standoffs" on a daily basis. It's hilarious how far some will go to let others in (dangerously so) and how triggering it is for others to watch.


pondusedtobeupthere t1_j44op6c wrote

They are aggressive down here, do not understand the concept of yielding and use of blinkers/directionals. Crazy stuff, VT is waaaay better.


Cyber_Punk_87 t1_j479dgv wrote

I would add one thing...if you're coming up to an intersection that you think might be a 3-way or 4-way stop, look for an actual indication of a stop sign (either an actual sign or a line on the road) and if there isn't one, DON'T STOP.

The intersection where 14 South and 15 split in Hardwick is horrible for this. People coming up the hill don't have to stop, but probably one in four cars does anyway. And it creates a traffic nightmare. Partly because if the road is even a tiny bit slippery, it can be impossible to get going again on that hill if you have to stop (I know this because I once had to do a 3-point turn in the middle of the road and go back down the hill because we had an early snowstorm and I didn't have my winter tires on and could not go of those days when they predicted "flurries" and we ended up with 4").

It's also a huge pain for trucks to get going again on that hill if they have to stop. That said, despite the signs on the two directions that do have to stop telling them that cross traffic doesn't stop, people will pull out in front of cars that are coming up the hill all the time. So you do have to watch when you're coming up the hill, but you definitely don't need to stop...

There are multiple intersections like this in Vermont and they're all nightmares...


TraditionalToe4663 t1_j3xrqm0 wrote

I have never understood the person to the right thing. what if 3 or 4 arrive at same time, who is on the right?


VT_Racer t1_j3xu28a wrote

Doubtful any of 4 people arrive and stop at the exact same time. There always slight variations in timing. Whoever stops first is first in line. For 3 people furtherst to the right would be the one without someone to their right.