Submitted by honeybeedreams t3_10cccpx in vermont
ais72 t1_j4fusps wrote
Great article!! Thanks for sharing. The author urges white people to acknowledge that they probably have “a deep and likely unrecognized sense of belonging in those [outdoor] spaces.”
Before you discard the idea that a hobby / space / group is not inclusive to all, please question whether you have an unrecognized sense of belonging, and imagine what it would feel like to NOT have that.
We should want everyone, especially those who have been historically excluded, to feel included and a sense of ownership of our shared Vermont and the outdoor spaces and hobbies we love.
sound_of_apocalypto t1_j4ganai wrote
I think I get at least some of what the author is getting at, but the phrase you quoted (“a deep and likely unrecognized sense of belonging in those [outdoor] spaces") seems weird to me. There is also the following line: "A belonging felt so deeply that some might experience it as an entitlement, as a sense of ownership."
This is essentially speculation about what other people the author encounters on the trail are thinking. There's no real way of knowing what is in the minds of these other hikers unless they flat out told her.
I've gotten occasional "entitled" vibes from people on the trail, but that's just my view. After these unfriendly people passed me, I didn't stop them to ask "hey, why didn't you say hi? Shy? Anxious? Fearful? Feeling entitled? Self-absorbed a-hole? Think you own the trail? Rich and above poors like me without all the expensive gear?"
And I'm not sure I would ever describe the feelings I have while on the trail as "deep belonging" or "ownership". Far from it. Mostly I feel in awe of the place, thankful that I'm still ambulatory and able to have the experience, keeping an eye on the weather because in a short amount of time the place can become completely inhospitable and deadly. None of us (or perhaps very few) "belong" there, IMO. I'm there not because of some birthright, but just a desire to experience something beautiful. Seeing people of all types on the trail can only add to that.
thirtythreeandme t1_j4gexql wrote
Yeah, I really don’t think you’re making a strong case if your argument is built on an assumption like this. Little does the author know that I too feel this anxiety of not belonging on the trails because I’m not a regular hiker. Any time I go I have this “am I doing this right?” feeling. And anxiety brain likes to assume everyone around you is confident and judging you. But you can slap race onto this narrative and it gives the framing of having deeper social implications. The only real difference here (and it is a bit of privilege) is that when I have anxiety about this scenario, my race doesn’t come into play where if I were a POC, maybe I would attribute this feeling to my race.
The problem with looking everywhere for racial tensions is that you’ll see it everywhere. Even when the perception is incorrect. But if you questioned it at all, you’re a racist. Which is supposed to spook any well-meaning person from saying anything. No one wants to be called a racist, of course. But if we keep letting these narratives of the most subtle interpretations of racism flood the airwaves, it actually impedes the discussions of overt and nefarious racism happening in society. The population is just too fatigued from race talks to deal with it at that point.
ais72 t1_j4gm7c8 wrote
You’re making a great point about inclusion overall in the outdoors industry. Why does it have to be either/or? We should create a more welcoming space for POC… AND we should create a more welcoming space for people new to the sport(s).
thirtythreeandme t1_j4h6und wrote
I appreciate this sentiment. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t find that hikers are all that hostile to newcomers? All I really expect as a casual hiker is to not be subjected to any disrespectful behavior. I haven’t experienced any real gatekeeping behavior or overt exclusion (of course, I don’t hike all that regularly). It’s always nice if people are friendly and go out of their way to be helpful, but it’s a bit much to expect everyone to be in that headspace mentally. Sometimes we just don’t feel up to it.
I think anytime you enter a subculture, there’s going to be an uncomfortable phase before you feel like you fit in. That’s just the nature of trying something new. We can’t expect our hand to be held during this process. It’s nice if you have someone to do that, but mostly we just have to be adults and work through difficult things. It builds resilience!
ais72 t1_j4glxsx wrote
I quoted this line because I think it captures something most white people often do not question. If you are white, you probably do not ever worry that your race makes you less welcome in outdoor environments and clubs/groups. The author is saying that POC on the other hand do not feel this intrinsic sense of belonging. And it’s not just the literal physical space of a hiking trail — it’s the community / group spaces like the GMC, like a subreddit for hiking and appreciation of the outdoors in Vermont. I can’t imagine something that screams “you don’t belong” more than being told your feelings and perspective are stupid and invalid, which is what a lot of other commenters are saying.
sound_of_apocalypto t1_j4gp491 wrote
I don't take exception to her expressing how she feels and I'm in no position to question that. I feel her somehow divining what other people are supposedly feeling is less well supported.
Harmacc t1_j4fx2ab wrote
People in this sub making me eat my words for claiming that Vermont isn’t racist.
[deleted] t1_j4fxshy wrote
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NoMidnight5366 t1_j4g080a wrote
The article could be much more positively written for example how to attract more POC to wilderness recreation rather than what white folks need to do to atone for this lack.
As someone who hikes/climbs all the time I know how welcoming and friendly people are on the trails. And why wouldn’t they be? You are flush with endorphins, bathing in nature— just in a good place. I’m always amazed at how friendly people are on the trail because this activity seems to filter out most of the assholes. I’m sure there’s still racists hikers, but in general the trails are a pretty welcoming place for people to be.
I have noticed once in a while when I’m out there I see a group of POC who are a little caught off guard when I randomly say hello or greet them as they are wondering why complete strangers are friendly. But that’s also just a part of city/suburban culture. People just don’t randomly say hi when you are walking down the street. But that is the culture of the trails and I’m going to continue to support that culture of welcoming and friendliness to fellow hikers regardless of their race.
ceiffhikare t1_j4g13gs wrote
I have a suspicion that Critical Theory as it is applied to the black experience in America has a lot to do with the writers perspective. I see a lot of articles with the same kind of general tone in them, citing the same set of works from that..field..whatever it is.
CR in itself i guess is just a tool to shift ones perspective but it was built around economic models IRRC so trying to bend it to other *(edit, just a typo,no i didnt get religion. ) *disciplines seems.. a stretch at best, which might be why the whole article seemed off to me.
Harmacc t1_j4fxvrt wrote
I suppose you didn’t read it
The only people it pisses off are snowflakes who don’t like the idea of not being the center.
The very title is about the fact that it’s for everyone.
If a PoC who says “maybe white folks shouldn’t be the default in the hobby” pisses you off, maybe you have some shit to work out that you didn’t know was inside you.
[deleted] t1_j4fya0x wrote
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Harmacc t1_j4fyezy wrote
Ah there you are. Maybe that thing inside you is well known to you after all.
Most-Analysis-4632 t1_j4g4qrm wrote
Sure. I read it. It’s not clickbait; it was published in the Green Mountain Club’s gazette. I’m white, but am interested in others’ perspectives, since by definition I can’t see them unless I’m told about them. I found the article interesting and well-written.
Hellrazor32 t1_j4g6qx1 wrote
The layers of racism in this comment 🤦🤦🤦
Comfortable-Job-6236 t1_j4ggaux wrote
Dude vermont is like 90% white people, people are getting pissed off because obviously statistically there would be more white people on trails in a state with mostly white people and it has nothing to do with black people not feeling like hiking, you know how me and my friends got into hiking? One friend would ask another to go hiking and that one would get into it and get his friends into it, if PoC want more hikers then they should do what everyone else does and try getting thir friends I to it and then their friends friends. Yes some people here are racist I think thats Tru for every state especially older generations but you can't let that stop you from doing what you like, while I've never felt racism I've been in countries that despise Americans and would swear at me when they heard me speaking English, do you think I let that affect my experience? Do you think I stayed inside and hid? No, I went out and had fun and ignored ignorant asshole people, as should everyone, regardless of color.
ThePecanRolls5225 t1_j4gbtds wrote
There is a real problem with people of color not feeling comfortable in outdoor recreational spaces. It’s something that has been well studied and just because you don’t think it’s a problem doesn’t mean it’s not.
[deleted] t1_j4g4mml wrote
I recommend giving White Gaze some hearty research.
The people up here STARE. The richer and older the Vermonter the worse the staring is.
Edit: Ooo, touched a nerve did I? Y’all need to learn to keep your eyes to yourselves tbh.
Eagle_Arm t1_j4gdlws wrote
How would the author know what other people are feeling? That alone doesn't make sense.
Also, a sense of belonging? People are eating too much granola. Y'all walking in the woods, this isn't connecting and being one with nature. It's walking.
PCPToad83 t1_j4gctho wrote
I’m not allowed to feel a sense of belonging when I’m outdoors?
ais72 t1_j4gmlqa wrote
You SHOULD feel like you belong, but you should reflect on the fact that you are luckily to feel this sense of belonging. If you don’t realize that you have this privilege you may unintentionally be blind to the fact that POC do not feel this same sense of belonging, and you and the organizations you’re part of should make an intentional effort to make others feel included regardless of their race. Not saying you (or others) deliberately exclude POC but there are historical and societal barriers you may be unaware of, and this context necessitates working extra hard to be inclusive.
Galadrond t1_j4h3et1 wrote
EVERYONE is entitled to enjoy recreation in green spaces.
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