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sumpdiddlyump_ t1_j8dmbdl wrote

Reply to comment by warb17 in D.C. police officer shoots, wounds man in Southeast Washington by warb17

> It's amazing to me that you can be alive here in 2023 with the tens of thousands of documented cases of police overreacting with lethal force and give them any benefit of the doubt.

This is just bad statistics. The majority of lethal force incidents happen in cases where the suspect was armed with a gun. The second most common situation is where the suspect is armed with a knife. The third is where the suspect was using a vehicle as a weapon.

That doesn’t excuse incidents where lethal force is incorrectly used, but if you actually care about that problem, then you shouldn’t be painting with such a broad brush. When you use phrases like “it’s amazing to me” and use bad stats, it leads me to believe you’re just engaging in performative outrage.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

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warb17 OP t1_j8dp53s wrote

a knife is rarely sufficient cause for a shooting. even a gun isn't necessarily sufficient cause.

the Post link is paywalled for me, but looking at the Guardian's database for 2016, half of those killed by police had a firearm. i don't think all of those were likely justified uses of lethal force because sometimes the killed person never fires their weapon, but lets assume they were all justified. That's about 500 people per year killed without cause.

i don't have stats on hand for how many times police use lethal force without actually killing the person, but i think it's reasonable to say it's at least the same frequency, if not twice or thrice as frequent. so that's 1,000 instances of unjustified lethal force, conservatively, per year. so we hit 10,000 in a decade or less of policing. if we're less conservative, that's 10,000 in 5-7 years.

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paulHarkonen t1_j8e912j wrote

This is where you've lost me. I was with you on the assumptions of incompetence and concerns with the level of force used, but this is where you've taken reasonable concerns into the territory of unreasonable.

The difference between a lethal blow from a pipe or knife and a non-lethal one is the point of impact and luck. Assaulting someone with a pipe (or any other weapon) is a potential justification for lethal force. While guns are the second easiest way to kill someone, that doesn't make knives and other weapons any less lethal, especially when someone has already proven their willingness to use it for violence.

The officer in question clearly screwed up here and there should be a thorough (ideally independent) investigation of how and why, probably ending with the officer's termination (unless they can come up with a damned good explanation). That doesn't mean that lethal force is unreasonable against future armed criminals, especially when they have already used those weapons.

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warb17 OP t1_j8gzs7f wrote

a knife could be thrown, but it's mostly a melee weapon. cops should keep a little distance and de-escalate when a knife is out, not shoot. if they can't handle that with all the training they get, they don't deserve the gun in the first place.

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paulHarkonen t1_j8hrf6j wrote

Awfully tough to de-escalate with someone committed to doing violence.

Look, I applaud your belief that no one needs to die at the hands of police and I agree that policing in the US is deeply broken right now. But when you take more extreme stances and use hyperbolic examples/statements you undermine the goals of actual change.

Yes the police should reduce their use of force, yes they should improve their training to avoid these types of incidents, but also yes, sometimes lethal force is necessary to protect themselves and the public for violent people with weapons (not just guns).

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warb17 OP t1_j8ipxxb wrote

the whole point of de-escalation is to apply it to someone originally intending to do violence.

also, i haven't said that lethal force is never required, even with a knife. i've said that it's heavily overused. if my sentiments feel extreme to you, maybe you should do some more reading on police and prison abolition. this article was written by someone skeptical of police abolition and might be useful: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/12/21283813/george-floyd-blm-abolish-the-police-8cantwait-minneapolis

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paulHarkonen t1_j8ir5tp wrote

I've read quite a bit on the subject and your comment was extreme. While you're right that you didn't say "never" you did say "rarely" and then used that stance to justify why it is unjustified when dealing with a suspect that had already used the weapon.

Again, I understand the concerns. Police need to be heavily regulated, on camera 24/7, reduced funding that is redirected toward mental health and social welfare resources. I'm onboard. The whole system needs to be completely restructured from the top to bottom.

Your stance and hyperbole here hampers that goal. Sometimes we do need police armed and prepared to use lethal force. Someone utilizing a potentially lethal weapon is one of those times. Do they need better training? Yes. Do they need more oversight? Yes. Should they be locked up in cases of misuse of force (such as shooting unarmed people)? Yes. Does that mean lethal force is unjustified when dealing with suspects wielding weapons other than firearms? No.

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warb17 OP t1_j8ivcb7 wrote

a person with a knife is generally a threat that can be contained and so as a general practice i'm going to default to assuming that the police acted irresponsibly if they shot the person.

i genuinely appreciate that you are willing to consider some reforms; we have some common ground there. i don't mean this in an antagonizing way but please keep in mind that my stance is not reform of police - it's abolition - so i'm not surprised if you feel like my stance is somewhat at odds with yours, because it is.

have you seen this pdf? if you haven't, it's a great tool for thinking about reforms that do or do not move towards abolition. you've mentioned some of the things in green, and so like i said, we do have common ground.

but my position is that policing and prisons as we know them are fundamentally problematic institutions and our aim should be to build a society free of them.

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paulHarkonen t1_j8iwft1 wrote

I think your stance is self destructive and not only does it result in worse outcomes but advocating for it undermines the possibility of improvement. So yes, I am certainly at odds with that stance.

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warb17 OP t1_j8ix5v1 wrote

well, at least we can advocate for reduced funding for MPD together and get those funds redirected to social services.

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joe_sausage t1_j8etvhy wrote

You think if someone’s coming at you with a pipe and you have enough time to shoot them, we haven’t figured out anything less destructive and less lethal than that, in 2023, that could keep you and the suspect both alive?

That’s just silly.

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paulHarkonen t1_j8flmpj wrote

Actually I do think we have very few reliable non-lethal ways to stop someone intent on harming you. Most ways of stopping them reliably pose a significant risk of killing them.

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